View Full Version : Conflicting advice
papaboy
10-22-2003, 11:40 PM
Howdy fishfolks. This is my first post. Yes, I'm a "newbie", although that term makes me feel as though I'm in RomperRoom or someplace.
Anyway, I started my adventure about 2 weeks ago. 29 Gallon tank, all the fixin's, 6 real plants, 3 plasitc ones (although I plan to lose them soon) and 7 tiger barbs. I think I did everything very carefully.
The problem I am having is that I am getting terribly conflicting advice from reputable places, even HERE, reading the posts, from people who INSIST that their way is the right way.
I can't name them all, but here is just one major example:
I have been told from different people with YEARS of experience that either:
1. During the initial cycle, don't change the water at all, this just prolonges the cycle process by adding new water and totally stresses the fish if you're dabbling around in the tank every couple days
OR
2. During the initial cycle, change portions of it almost daily.
This is just one example of many different opinions I guess.
Meanwhile, my tiger barbs are happily terrorizing each other and chasing each other having much fun, hanging around midtank and bottom, and in only 2 weeks they are really growing fast. My water has not turned cloudy, the plants seem to be thriving, and all these cycle bolsheviks out there have got me half crazy waiting for the other shoe to drop. Have I spoken too soon?
Hell of a hobby we've got here huh?
Peace,
papaboy
SnakeIce
10-23-2003, 1:10 AM
ok both sides of the example you give have merit and some reason for that... if you are just after having the cycle done as soon as possible yes don't change any water...
the reason some say to change water during a cycle that has fish in the equasion is that the byproducts of that cycle are harmfull to fish and by changeing some of the water you don't let the levels of those things(amonia and nitrIte) get so high as to endanger your fishes lives
however you say that you have plants in the tank from the start right? that in itself lessens the bad stuff because the plants use some of those things when they grow thus making the cycleing time safer for your fish
SnakeIce
10-23-2003, 1:14 AM
if you have any other things you are confused about just let us know and we will try to confuse you more jk
Welcome to Aquariacentral papaboy!
id say its a better plan to do frequent water changes with the fish load you have started with. this will get rid of some of the chemicals that will damage if not kill your fish.
the only merit i could see to not changing wqater would be if your doing the fishless cycle and you could let the tank have huge ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate spikes without worrying about fish thus letting the bacteria build up rapidly.
youve got live plants so that will affect the chemicals a bit as the plants convert them into nitrogen. use the test kits and if the chemical levels start lookin high (ammonia 1+,nitrite1+, nitrate 10+) do a partial change so your fish dont get hurt. youll drag out the cycle over a long period this way but thats better than having a school of dead barbs.
(hope this makes sense i just got home from the bar :)
Cearbhaill
10-23-2003, 4:43 AM
The water changing thing will depend on your levels of ammonia and nitrites during your cycle. You test your water parameters and if the levels are too high you change a percentage of water to offer relief to the fish. The bacteria you are trying to establish are relatively adherent to hard surfaces so changing water will not dilute them or slow your cycle.
I didn't see any mention of water testing in your post- it is important and before anyone offers advice on whether to change water or wait I'd expect them to ask you what your levels of ammonia and nitrite are.
As far as conflicting advice- there are 100 ways to do just about anything. Personally I try to hear everyones opinion, do a decent amount of online research, then just do what makes sense to me. As time passes you will get a feel for whose advice you give weight to and who you respectfully ignore.
I am a big fan of trying to understand why I am doing something before I do it. I would never blindly follow anyones advice without at least spending 10 minutes on Google to get a general consensus.
It is a fascinating hobby, but the initial learning curve is fairly steep. Once you fully understand ammonia > nitrite > nitrate and why we do regular water changes you'll have passed the worst of it. Keep listening, keep reading and it will all come together for you.
1 vote for "change it"..... the ONLY time you wouldn't want to change it is during a fishless cycle, and even then at the end you change it all (basically).
as far as the bacteria, they aren't relatively adhered, either they are adhered or they are more than likely dead. i can get fairly long-winded on reasons for it, even with the plants. plants will remove some of the contaminants........ but to sum this up, (and possibly to quote someone).
in this hobby, water quality is EVERYTHING.
the only way you achieve that is by frequent partial water changes and doing it during your cycle helps to set a good habit and alleviate any stress your fish might be experiencing due to poor water quality..........
good luck
papaboy
10-23-2003, 9:45 PM
Hey thanks everyone for your speedy replies to my original post about conflicting advice.
Yes, I'm listening to all 'sides' and doing the research and then doing what I think is best.
Also, I spend literally hours just observing the whole scene. This might sound nuts, and nobody mentioned it yet, but I really feel, just like gardening (which is also a hobby of mine), that channeling love to them certainly can't hurt......
My next question I guess would be:
Once this initial cycling is 'done', and my water levels show consistency, what are the best fish to add with my 7 tiger barbs? Again, I get conflicting advice on this one. Some say that a group that big won't bother other fish. I like really colorful fish with interesting shapes.
Again, thanks for the posts!
Peace
JSchmidt
10-23-2003, 11:43 PM
I agree with the posts that advocate testing and water changing. An ammonia test and a nitrite test will get you through the cycle. Keeping ammonia below 1.5 ppm and nitrites below 1 ppm will benefit your fish greatly. With such a slight fishload and with a number of live plants, you may never even see levels that high... that would be good (for your fish).
Your choices for adding fish later are pretty numerous. Various species of rasboras or tetras would work, as would a number of species of catfish (esp. coryadoras). It will help to watch your fish as the tank cycles and to see how frisky they are. That will make a difference as to tankmates...
Good luck,
Jim
i considered tiger barbs when i first started my tank and after research and talking to folks at the lfs figured they would just harass the other fish i had planed for the community. you need to find fish that can take being chased around by the tigers or large enough they get left alone. i was at the lfs today and took a look at what they had in with the tigers and all that was sharing the tank was a couple paradise fish. those are pretty, semi aggressive fish and they looked to be doing well with all the barbs. mabye some sedate bottom fish wouldnt be bothered. a clown pleco, bristlenose cat, maybe smaller loach species.
To be on the safe side stay away from fish with long flowing fins, like bettas, gouramis, long finned danios, paradise fish, etc...as the tiger barbs will probably nip on those.
There are lots of other very nice barbs out there, such as rosy, checkerboard and gold which might look nice as another school in the tank. Add to this a nice hardy bottom feeder and you will be doing fine. Don't add them now though. Wait until your tank has stabilized and since you are doing a fishy (not fishless) cycle then you should not add more than a few new fish at a time in the future to avoid sharp spikes in waste output.
I agree that water changes are the way to go in the beginning of a fishy cycle in order to make sure your fish do not suffer long term damage. And yes a test kit for ammonia and nitrites is very important. Will water changes slow the cycle down? YEs, a bit but you have chosen to cycle with fish so it is your job to make sure they are healthy, even if it makes for a little more work in the near future.
Good luck!:)
Originally posted by TKOS
Will water changes slow the cycle down? YEs, a bit
that's a fairly ambiguous statement. slow it down as opposed to what? fishless cycle? cycling with fish and no water changes?
sorry, i don't think you could prove that at all. you can't fishless cycle with fish, so that isn't an issue. fish cycling without water changes is liable to kill the fish and that would end the cycle. even the amount of water changes during the cycle hasn't been proved to make any difference one way or another, that i know of. the bacteria in question grow on surfaces, not "suspended" in the water column, so you won't be removing them. as far as removing the nutrients for the bacteria, even if you changed 50% of your water daily you would still have something left behind for the bacteria to feed on also.
sorry, i don't want people thinking skimping on the water changes is going to make the cycle happen any quicker, i seriously doubt it would.
Agree strongly with ewok - water changes during cycling with fish does not detectably slow the cycle. Anytime there are detectable levels of ammonia and nitrite in the tank, the bacteria will multiply to match the available energy supply. Their division is slow, granted, in comparison to other bacteria. But all it takes is the presence of unoxidized metabolites to prompt them to reproduce.
Keeping the levels of the toxic metabolites below dangerous levels to the fish protects the fish,and does not at all harm the nitrification bacteria, nor does it slow them down.
Sensei_the_dojo
10-24-2003, 2:05 PM
Originally posted by ewok
that's a fairly ambiguous statement. slow it down as opposed to what? fishless cycle? cycling with fish and no water changes?
sorry, i don't think you could prove that at all. you can't fishless cycle with fish, so that isn't an issue. fish cycling without water changes is liable to kill the fish and that would end the cycle. . . .
Of course, it wouldn't end the cycle if you left the dead fish in the tank. ;)
huh? I never said don't do water changes. I said do water changes if you have fish. All I was saying is that a fishless cycle with added ammonia will probably grow a full tank of bacteria quicker than a fishy cycle with water changes. Sorry if I was wrong.
id think the not changing the water, fishless cycle would be faster than the fish cycle. almost every article ive read on it sites the tank cycle time frame as shorter compared to the with fish one. without fish you can let your ammonia, nitrites build up to a level that would kill your fish. those high levels of chemicals prove to be a breeding ground for the nitrifying bacteria we need to make the tanks fish safe. done right a fishless cycle can take a couple weeks as oppose to the fish cycle which can take a couple months and possibly kill fish.
papaboy
10-27-2003, 7:36 PM
OK thanks for all the advise. I actually took it to heart and did my first water change yesterday. Yeah, I vacumed the bottom as it sucked out a few gallons, then I added new conditioned water. Basic stuff, I guess.
I also did it, to be honest, because over the last 2 weeks, some water evaporated and was getting close to the top of the airtubes......
But my tigerbarbs are doing just fine. Water still not cloudy, maintaining an even 75 degrees, and I have one plastic plant left, with real replacements.
All in all, it's lookin pretty **** good right now, so I'm savoring the moment.
Thanks for your help.