Help!!Loaches sick!!

[Debisbooked]

75 gallon planted tank. Water parems Nitrite 0, nitrate 20, ammonia 0.

All 3 loaches have ich. I've done a 50% water change, upped the temp to 80 but they don't seem to be able to tolerate that so I take it down to 79. One of them stays at the top trying to breathe when I upped it. I've added 70 teaspoons of salt and that doesn't seem to effect the other fish but the loaches don't look good. One is getting around but the other two are hiding in the 'grass' vertically, and act like they are drunk when they come out. Does this salt/heat treatment really work? I don't want to kill them through the treatment. I started last night with gradually adding salt and raising temp. I've read the article but each one seems to say something different. I'm mixing the salt with aquarium water before pouring it in.

I posted yesterday but no response. I foolishly added some more neons about three weeks ago without quarantining them and now this. I love the loaches most of all. They have never been sick before. They are about 3-4 years old. Anything else I should be doing? I do not want to use the Rid-Ich because it sounds even more caustic.

[LeahK]

Sorry to hear this--I know it's frustrating! I don't want to advise you to suddenly change treatment course, because that can be even more stressful for the fish. But, just for future reference, I successfully treated clown loaches with Rid-Ich Plus, with no losses, and seemingly no stress to the fish. I did, however, have to deal with a mini-cycle and an ammonia spike, because the Rid Ich killed off all the scuds (shrimp-y looking things) in my tank.
But, from what I've learned here, the salt treatment is effective. Although you have to stick with it for a long time. Someone else will come along soon who can give you more firsthand experience with it.

[pinkertd]

Please read this:
http://forums.loaches.com/viewtopic.php?t=2599
I've never had ich with any of my loaches but the loach forum states: DO NOT add salt despite the advice that is sometimes given. Generally speaking, loaches can't deal with salt and it ends up being a further stress on them.

[plaalye]

What kind of loaches? I've used salt without harm to my loaches, but it didn't fully get rid of the ich either. The most important thing is to raise and lower the salinity(temp also) slowly so as not to cause osmotic shock.
Did the fish seem to get worse after you added the salt? If so you might do a series of small water changes and see what happens.
I like Rid-ich. It's much easier and more efficient IME and I haven't had any problems with my bio-filter. Good luck!

[fishorama]

Lower the water level a couple inches so the filter return splashes. Ich usually hits the gills hard & more oxygen in the water will help. If possible add a powerhead or another filter for more surface agitation.

High temps help speed the ich lifecycle but warmer water holds less oxygen.

Good luck

[Debisbooked]

I did a 20 % water change about 3 hours ago and the clowns are moving more but they are moving back up to the top of the tank more often too. If I take out some more water in order to get the splash, won't that just concentrate the salt again?

[Debisbooked]

Lower the water level a couple inches so the filter return splashes. Ich usually hits the gills hard & more oxygen in the water will help. If possible add a powerhead or another filter for more surface agitation.

High temps help speed the ich lifecycle but warmer water holds less oxygen.

Good luck

Ok. I lowered the water, raised the rena xp3 bar and now getting a nice splash. The loaches have returned to the bottom so I hope this means more oxygen.

Now what? Do I continue doing water changes to get the salt out or go ahead and add the Rid -Ich with the salt in there? Or just keep the temp up? This is so confusing!

[LeahK]

I sympathize with your frustration. Here are the very explicit instructions that I followed when treating ich:
http://www.aquamaniacs.net/forum/cms_view_article.php?aid=27
I ended up treating with Rid Ich Plus for almost 12 days--that was 4 days after I saw the last white spot disappear. I changed 25% of the water every single day of treatment, using a water vac, and redosed the Rid Ich, just like the instructions in the above link say to do.
These instructions also advise against using salt. Many people here on AC, however, have used salt successfully. One thing I would not do is mix the two treatments. If you want to try the Rid Ich, I'd do small water changes until the salt is mostly gone, and then start using Rid Ich.
The article also advises keeping your temperature normal, to avoid extra stress on the fish. Like I said, you may hear differing opinions on this here at AC. I can at least tell you, from my own personal experience, following the instructions in the article above worked for me.

[Debisbooked]

Thank you for the succinct instructions LeahK! I feel awful about the salt and the higher temps. It just felt so wrong to subject the loaches to further pain. I'm going to turn down the temp a bit before bed and continue doing daily water changes. How will I know when the salt is gone? Is there a test?

[LeahK]

Hmmm, I don't know if there's a way to test. But you can estimate by how many water changes you do (that is, after a 25% water changes, then 25% of the original salt concentration is gone).
I guess your dilemma is this: You need to get the salt out quickly, so you can switch to Rid Ich, because the longer you take to switch treatments, the longer the ich goes untreated; but you can't remove the salt too quickly, because this can shock the fish.
Maybe you could change more water at once if you were to drip acclimate the fresh water.
It is my guess that, maybe, it's ok if the salt isn't totally removed when you start using Rid Ich. Because you have to do daily water changes with the Rid Ich anyway, the salt will be gone soon enough. But I'm really not sure about that, and I'd hate to give you bad advice, so hopefully someone else can post here and let you know.
Good luck! I hope your loaches start feeling better soon :)

[Debisbooked]

LeahK,

I did two 20% water changes yesterday (morning and evening), then another this morning and added the Rid Ich. Hopefully that helped bring the salt down. (Unfortunately I didn't see the note about not adding Amquel to the tank. I added it before adding the Rid-Ich but probably neutralized the meds even so). I turned down the temp one degree and got the filter bars splashing last night.Also, I have to work today, so I didn't have time to change the Rena filter sponges this morning. I also have a Eheim 2213 on there as back-up. I thought drastic filter changes were bad for the tank's good bacteria? I will change the Rena tonight though. The Eheim's a bit more complicated and I don't think I have enough medium for that anyway.

I guess its back to the bucket brigade so I can add the Amquel to it before adding to the tank. (I use the other brand of clorine buster but can't think of its name right now). Is their a lag time before adding the 'amquel' water to the treated tank?

[fishorama]

I missed why you want to change your filter media. It's only the carbon (if you use it) that needs to be removed. Some treatments can damage the beneficial bacteria but you'll be doing small water changes anyway. (with gravel vacs & retreatment)

If you have another healthy tank, you could add some extra media to it to help reseed the ich tank filter once treatment is done. I don't recall what's in Rid Ich but if it's malachite green based you need to keep the lights off during tx.

[LeahK]

I missed why you want to change your filter media. It's only the carbon (if you use it) that needs to be removed.

I think it's because the instructions in the link I posted said to really clean, or change, the filter media. They don't explain why, but I'm guessing that it's because the media can harbor ich.
Debisbooked, I gave my media a good rinse in tank water before treating, but I didn't change it completely. I didn't want to lose my bacteria. I just removed the carbon, like fishorama says.
I'm now subscribed to this thread, so I'll catch your updates. I hope things start getting better soon!

Edit: I meant to say, too, I wasn't using Amquel or any other ammonia neutralizers during treatment. My good bacteria held out until the very end, when there was an ammonia spike. But until then I was just using a dechlorinator. Maybe, if your ammonia is ok now, you could just switch to Prime or something else that doesn't interact with the Rid Ich.

[Debisbooked]

I missed why you want to change your filter media. It's only the carbon (if you use it) that needs to be removed.

I thought the aquamaniacs article said to change all 'sponges'. I assumed that meant those black foam squares in the Rena. I would rather not mess around with the filters unless absolutely necessary.

I went home for lunch. The loaches still look miserable but alive. The temp is down, water is splashing, and there is less salt to deal with.

[LeahK]

Any updates?

[Debisbooked]

Any updates?

Sadly, two of the clowns died today and it looks like the third is fading fast. I will continue to dose the tank but I doubt if number three will make it to tomorrow. I never realized until now the absolute necessity to quarantine new fish. The one time I slipped up and didn't do it had devastating consequences.

Thanks for all your help. Deb

[LeahK]

I'm really sorry to hear that. The case of ich that I had in my tank was because I didn't quarantine either. Now I've learned my lesson, but tough to lose fish. Just don't be too hard on yourself! It sounds like your fish had an especially bad case.

[fishorama]

I'm sorry for your loachy losses. Although readily treated there can still be deaths from the ich, secondary infections or the treatment. Quarantine helps a lot but doesn't catch everything, you do the best you can.

Continue to treat the tank for a week or 2 after all signs are gone.

[Debisbooked]

It's Friday evening and I remain optimistic that number three loach is going to live. He's still alive and moving around more and no longer looks like death warmed over. It's been over a week since he's eaten last so I worry about that too. Any ideas?

So, despite using Rid-Ich for over a week the ich is not leaving his body all that quick. It looks like the the parasites are taking up residence on other parts of his body so I suppose some leave while others return? I'm prepared to continue with daily water changes and Rid-ich applications past the last one falling off. I've noticed that nothing in the tank seems to be affected by this daily dosing though. There are some mollie juvvies that are fine and even some snails going about their business. Coupled with the ich still on the loach, I'm wondering if the 7 teas/70 gallons is enough?

[LeahK]

I'm glad to hear the one fish is pulling through. If it were me, I'd be scared to go past the prescribed dosage of Rid Ich, but it is weird that there are new white spots that have appeared since you began treatment. Because I'd think that the medication should kill the free-swimming ich before they can reach the fish again.
I wonder, if you're still using Amquel, could it be a problem with that? Or maybe you just have an especially resistant strain of ich. I'd stick with the treatment as is, and hopefully after time it will start to beat the parasites.

[Debisbooked]

I put Prime in the buckets the evening before and then add the bucket water in the morning followed by the Rid-Ich immediately after. Someone on aquamaniacs suggested I could try using the python again for water changes/treatment in the morning and put the meds in at night. Now that the clown loach is acting more normal I may go back to that on work days because the bucket brigade is taking chunks of time. I am using a new bottle of Rid-Ich too. This loach was heavily covered with ich at one point so I suppose it's going to take a while for him. He's not visibly eating but maybe getting some sort of micronutrients out of the water? I'm sure he hasn't eaten for a week or more. He's not looking emaciated.

[fishorama]

Do you have other tanks that could be contaminated by the python?

I'm curious as to why you wait to add treatment, a matter of time?

Malachite green is broken down by light. Are you keeping the lights off (except to vac)? That could reduce it's effectiveness.