Nitrites!!! Help!

[mel_20_20]

Yesterday I did a 50% water change in my 10 gallon and vacuumed a lot of gunk out, stirred up things a bit. Prior to the water change, params were 0 ammo, 0 nitrites, 5 nitrates, ph 7, temp 80.

After about 15-30 minutes I checked params and the nitrites were at .25 so I did an extra 5ml of Prime in addition to the usual 1ml to condition the return water.

I do weekly waterchanges of about 50%. I check the params every day, and if needed I do waterchanges in between the weekly schedule.

For two weeks I've been using Melafix and Kordon Ich Attack to treat what seemed to be ich, but never did break out to a real case of ich. Increased my temp from 78 to 80.5-81F to speed up the ich cycle. Never did see more specks.

This afternoon I checked params and I'm still having elevated levels of nitrites, around .25.
I dosed with Prime again, 5ml for my 10 gallon, which I know is 5 times the usual dose for an emergency to reduce nitrites. And I still have nitrites.

I've had my carbon filter out for two weeks while treating for ich, but I put it in this afternoon as the tank was extremely murky for several hours from a tums tab I added this morning.

I can't do another waterchange until tomorrow morning around 10am, will this level of nitrites do damage to my
snail, ADFs, shrimp, and fish? Can I add more Prime? Can you overdose on Prime?

Does the Tum tab have anything to do with the nitrite levels? My water is soft and the ph gradually drops between weekly waterchanges, creeping down to around 6.8. I'm at 7.4 right after every water change.

Thanks for your help.

[KarlTh]

0.5 teaspoons table salt per 10 gallons. That will prevent uptake of the nitrite until you can do a water change.

[Cory Keeper]

No it wont Karl, it will simply help the fish cope a little better.

How long has the tank been set up? have you used any meds recently? whats the ammonia/nitrite reading from the tap?

[Blueiz]

The prime is doing its job, however you have to remeber that it is not going to remove the nitrite from the water, only detoxify it, same thing with ammonia. Your nitrites aren't high enough to be dabbling in ading this and that to your tank, do another water change to get them out. You have done something that has caused your tank to mini cycle, keep an eye on the parameters and remember nothing is going to remove the nitrites except water changes. Also remember that water conditioners turn chlorine into ammonia so that it can be disposed of via your bio filter. So its not unusual for your parameters to check off after a water change.

ADA the salt that was mentioned, CK is right, it helps the fish cope with nitrite poisoning. The same way a lower ph will help with ammonia poisoning.

[KarlTh]

The Cl- ion in salt competes at the gills with nitrite. It does, therefore, indeed reduce take up of nitrite; as long as the chloride is in a much higher concentration than the nitrite, then most of the update on this pathway is of chloride:

http://www.springerlink.com/content/t6t91758u8167gg1/ - note 5 - "..[nitrite] uptake is linked quantitatively with chloride uptake"

A low pH does not help fish cope with ammonia poisoning. It changes NH3 to NH4+, which is not toxic, thereby preventing ammonia toxicity in the first place.

[Blueiz]

The Cl- ion in salt competes at the gills with nitrite. It does, therefore, indeed reduce take up of nitrite; as long as the chloride is in a much higher concentration than the nitrite, then most of the update on this pathway is of chloride:

http://www.springerlink.com/content/t6t91758u8167gg1/ - note 5 - "..[nitrite] uptake is linked quantitatively with chloride uptake"

A low pH does not help fish cope with ammonia poisoning. It changes NH3 to NH4+, which is not toxic, thereby preventing ammonia toxicity in the first place.

Well, dont you think by stopping the fish from absorbing it, it helps the fish cope with the enviroment at hand?

Yes, a lower ph makes ammonia less harmful to fish and reduces the toxicity of nitrite to the fish. The info you have posted is very helpful, it gives the explanation of why it helps the fish cope with ammonia and nitrite poisoning.. doesn't make the other info that is posted wrong..;)

[KarlTh]

I was responding to CK telling me I was wrong to say that chloride prevents uptake of nitrite. It does.

As to ammonia, I enjoy splitting the odd hair ;)

[mel_20_20]

Thanks guys. It has been crazy here today. I tried to update everyone earlier before I had to rush out again. I accidently hit the back button before I posted and lost it. I had to hurry out and didn't have time to retype a post.

I tested nitrites this morning before leaving for work, and was prepared to do an emergency water change, but the nitrites are back to 0.

I think the water change/vacuum stirred up a lot of decay and sent everything off, though I can see that I need to really vacuum a lot more and be careful with feeding.

I guess the Prime helped until the beneficial bacteria caught up and took care of things.

I think I have too much gravel in the tank. 2 1/2 to 3 inches maybe, and food and gunk are not getting sucked out as much as needed.

I had read about the salt/nitrite uptake issue doing research on a UK website, Practical Fishkeeping, but didn't know if if would hurt or help the inverts in my tank and didn't know dosing info either.

Thanks for the info, I'll use that next time, or should I go ahead and dose for good measure?

Also, please let me know if my snail will be OK with that dose, thanks.

Tank setup:

The tank was set up on Jue 10, 2008 and became cycled by the end of August. Started off with too many fish, but managed to keep the casualties low, considering how things go with a new aquarium, especially small tanks.

After a couple of mini cycles, a dechlorination accident, a couple of fatalities going through the learning curve I have been able to keep the tank stable, though I really need to rehome some occupants.

Jackiomy in CA is going to take my brochis so he can join her little crew of brochis as soon as her tank is OK and I'm sure my tank is cured of ich, or at least until I'm positive my tank never actually had ich in the first place.

She might even be willing to take my otos, though I haven't asked her, and I really want to keep them, and I'm trying to convince my husband that a large tank is really easier to manage. (I will do a fishless cycle this time!)

As far as meds go, the only thing I have been using is Kordon Ich Attack, and Melafix, temp increased to 81.

A lump/nodule/cyst on a guppy's fin ray seemed to be ich but after 2 weeks and no outbreak I'm pretty sure it was not ich, unless I just caught it extremely early.

I'm very nearsighted and so when I take my glasses off I can zoom in really close, so maybe I saw the speck earlier than most would

Anyway, regarding the nitrite issue.

I think I need to remove a lot of gravel. How would you do that, and how big a mess will this make on my parameters. Also, how traumatic will that be to the occupants? 1 brochis, 2 otos, 2 ADFs, 1 bridgesii, 1 guppy, 3 ghost shrimp.

I have a 5 gallon QT. Should I move everybody over there while I clean out the 10 gallon.

I have brightly colored gravel in there when we set it up for my nephew, and I'd rather have something more natural looking.

I am going to do a water change now or in the morning,
but I'm worried about stirring up everything and causing spikes again.

Do you think the tums tab added right after a water change was a bad move? Could that have increased the problem with the params at such a time? The water was so murky all day that I put the carbon filter back in.

After 2 weeks of elevated temp and the Ich Attack, wouldn't ich be obvious by now.

Should I continue with the Ich Attack just to be certain?

What do you recommend?

Sorry for so many questions... I really do appreciate your advise, and I'm so grateful to have found this forum.

[DrNo]

Sounds like crisis averted Melody :D

[mel_20_20]

Yes, thanks Dr. V, I think so.:thumbsup:

[Coler]

I was responding to CK telling me I was wrong to say that chloride prevents uptake of nitrite. It does.

As to ammonia, I enjoy splitting the odd hair ;)

I'm with you on all that Karl - the advice on salt is particularly worth noting I think, as an emergency room option until you can do a water change (yes ideally it would be done immediately but especially with bigger tanks and their interaction with life that's not always possible - I would say in a 10G a water change can be done so quickly as to be relatively instantaneous).

A question for my own education - I understood that the effect of nitrite poisoning was to prevent the fish from being able to metabolise oxygen at the gill surface and that addition of salt mitigated against this (i.e. it is not so much that nitrite in itself is toxic, but that it interferes severely with the bio-chemical function of respiration in fish). Is it in fact the case that adding the salt in fact prevents a toxic substance (the nitrite) from being 'ingested' for want of a better word ?

Thanks as always for your info :)

[KarlTh]

Nitrite binds with haemoglobin to create methaemoglobin. This latter is unable to take on oxygen, suffocating the fish - it also turns the blood a brown colour, hence "brown blood disease". Most toxins do something like this - prevent the operation of a vital metabolic pathway in some manner. The effect of the salt - specifically the chloride - is to compete with the nitrite so that it isn't taken in through the gills, so yes, it does prevent uptake of the toxin.

[mel_20_20]

Thanks Karl, I like to understand the physiological and pathological processes in animals, and humans.:read:

You are a storehouse of knowledge.
What is your background, if it's not impolite to ask?:)