Pygmaeus Fry [Archive] - Aquaria Central

pinkertd

12-30-2008, 11:44 AM

Thanks. They've been spawning a lot over the last six months. Although they only lay one egg at a time and place it which is different than a lot of the regular size cories, they still manage to get quite a few eggs all around the tank. I've had literally 100's of fry hatch. It is quite a bit more complicated to raise these fry compared to regular cories. So sad to say, I've not been successful yet getting them to live longer than 2 weeks or so. I thought the hardest part was going to be when they were newly hatched and providing microscopic foods for them. But that's not it. I've not quite given up on this yet though.

petluvr

12-30-2008, 12:33 PM

I have always heard the first month is the most volatile and I would have to agree. I am sure you will be successful in your attempts:)

toddnbecka

12-30-2008, 5:14 PM

Have you tried feeding the several-week-old fry microworms? They're smaller than bbs, and will remain alive for hours in the water. That may increase he survival rate.

pinkertd

12-30-2008, 11:17 PM

Todd these guys are too small yet for microworms. I've discussed breeding them with one of the leading rare cory breeders in the US and he says I'm doing everything right, it's just very hard to keep them alive. I will say that at this point I'm suspecting they don't take well to any water changes. They spawn all the time and you can't see the fry in the tank since they slip down between the gravel most of the time. Water changes can be deadly to newly hatched fry. I lost the first two batches of plecos to water changes within the first week of hatching. But with plecos you know you have young, you can see them. And they're not hatching different days of the week every week. Take now for instance, I have fry that hatched out last week over a period of a couple of days, so I probably shouldn't do a water change. But in 3-4 more days, I'll have more hatched fry. And you can't gravel vac. It is very hard for me to keep a dirty tank. But that's what I may have to do. Slowly, one item by one item, i'm tweaking things.

toddnbecka

12-30-2008, 11:42 PM

Ah, I didn't realize they were quite so small from the pics. You could perhaps try adding some java moss to the tank. A bit of that lying loosely on or above the substrate would increase the micro critter habitat/population, and a good load of duckweed would help with water quality between changes.
Personally, I'm not bothered by neglecting water changes for weeks at a time if necessary (and sometimes when it isn't... LOL.) Strange as it may seem, a dirty tank (within reason, that is) is actually better for tiny fry. Siphoning the gravel would also remove a significant source of food for bottom-dwelling fish fry. Even my wee chanchito fry spend some time grazing from the sand substrate.
In any case, it's always a trial-and-error process when learning how to spawn and raise a new species. I think you're doing quite well so far, and actually getting better survival rates than would be found in nature. Not every fry will be strong and healthy to start with.

pam916

12-31-2008, 12:52 AM

Could you use a bare bottomed tank? A bare bottomed tank and a seasoned sponge filter might help. You would be able to see the fry better and they would not slip down in the substrate. The fry eat all kinds of microbes off the sponge filter. I would hold off on the water changes.

pinkertd

12-31-2008, 7:23 AM

As much as I hate the sight of a bare-bottom tank, I may have to go that route and place plants in pots for the cories to put their eggs. I've got thick taiwan moss and subwassertang in there for the fry. They can definitely find enough to eat to get started to the size you see in the picture. What you see in the picture is probably 10 times bigger than their immediate hatch size. This morning I spotted two of them moving between the gravel. For comparison, the head of the fry is still smaller than an albino cory egg! About 6 weeks ago I did switch the tank from a 20H to a 20L. It seems the tiny fry had trouble getting to the surface in the 20H, too far to go. So I've solved that problem. In the past I've added a lot of microworms but not with success so this time I'm adding the first bites crushed down even smaller to really make a powder. I've also recently thrown in my smallest baby bristlenose to help suck up food debris off the bottom. While he may accidentally suck in an egg or two off the glass, he's a bit heavy to get to the underside of the delicate plant leaves I have in there for the cories so most eggs are safe. Otos on the other hand can more easily suck the tiny leaves so I've already been there, done that, removed oto! I was actually wondering about glazing a rock with an egg mixture and adding it to the tank. Does anyone think that will help and know how I should do it?

msjinkzd

12-31-2008, 7:31 AM

Deb, I remembered reading this in an old post by inkyjenn:

2) Grind your favourite fish food to bits. You can add any kind of fish food and even ground, dried vegetables. Separate an egg white from the yolk. Mix the egg white and fish food. Paint the resulting mixture on a flat rock or driftwood. Let it dry rock hard. Place it in the tank. The dry egg white will only dissolve very slowly in water. Your happy loricariids will eat away since this mimics their "natural" foods.

you can also use method 2 for feeding pleco fry. the egg white gives them some extra protein

this method neglects to mention to be a little frugal with the fish food and maybe to try using a mortar and pestle to grind up the food into a powder. dont leave it in chunks

pinkertd

12-31-2008, 8:31 AM

Thanks Rach!! Seems easy enough. I'm excited that a couple of the fry can be seen swimming from place to place along the bottom and onto a few of the lower plant leaves. I would like to think that they are still strong and it's not just because I'm home sticking my face into the glass a lot!:)

inkyjenn

12-31-2008, 9:47 AM

teeny fish are like crack! i swear this is true! so addicting!

at least the side effect of mts isnt too bad

cam191919

12-31-2008, 10:03 AM

i hope to see some little guys like that soon, congrats!!

jpappy789

12-31-2008, 4:39 PM

congrats deb! little buggers are too cute!

toddnbecka

12-31-2008, 5:39 PM

Have you tried researching betta fry raising techniques? They're tiny wee buggers as well, and you may be able to find some suitable-sized golden pearls that the cory fry would eat. No clue if the air-breathing requirements of betta fry would have any significance regarding cory fry, but they both take air from the surface.
Never tried to raise betta or cory fry personally, but thought there may be some similarity between the two...

OldMan47

12-31-2008, 8:40 PM

pam916

01-01-2009, 6:30 PM

One of the possibilities that I am surprised MSJinkzD missed is apple snails. They carry around and excrete infusoria that are the ideal starting food for microscopic fry. It will give them something to eat until they are big enough for things like microworms or Walter worms.

x2. Apple snails are also great for cleaning off leftover food that the fry don't eat. Wardley's smallfry liquid food should work if the babies will eat food that is not alive.

msjinkzd

01-01-2009, 6:32 PM

that is true! I missed an opportunity to pimp snails! LOL

pinkertd

01-06-2009, 8:27 AM

Well, a sad update today on the two older fry I've been tracking in the tank....I spotted them on Sunday, saw one of them surface and dart back down and rest on a plant leaf, but found one little body last night while I was netting out some of the moss pieces from a trimming I had done. No signs of the other one so I doubt that one is still alive either. I am trying to estimate how old these two fry were. Best guess is 3 or 4 weeks. I've got a bunch of new hatches in the gravel from the spawnings that were taking place on 12/30. So if those fry hatched on 1/2 and 1/3, they are 4-5 days old and barely visible when they pop up from the gravel. The new fry are about 1/16" and about the width of an eyelash, and the two that I just lost were about 3/16", maybe 1/32" wide, but still mostly tail, While still very tiny (still smaller than a newborn molly) they were huge when compared to a newly hatched fry. So, the frustration continues. The tank is full of stuff to eat to get them growing for a couple of weeks. I had been adding some microworms and First Bites for the last several days. One of the foods I feed the adults is Kens veggie pellets so there are minute particles of these pellets in the gravel. My MTS are thriving and multiplying like cockroaches.:wall::wall::wall:

snoopy65

01-06-2009, 8:32 AM

Awe....that is sad the babies died. I know it has to be frustrating. I am sure though, as time goes on, you will be successful. Good luck with the new spawns.

saram521

01-06-2009, 2:04 PM

Hey Deb, maybe the 20L is experiencing small spikes in ammonia, or maybe the nitrates are too high, which may be too much for the babies to handle? I think it could be possible for the adults to be just fine in slightly less than perfect conditions while the babies are perishing. Is the temp. pretty constant, not changing more than a degree in either direction? How often were you doing water changes from the time the two bigger fry were born? If water quality is a slight issue, could you maybe only siphon water from the column and not gravel vac during wc's? I don't mean to overload you with q's, I'm just trying to get a better grasp of your setup :). If you're not able to do many water changes because of the fragile state of the fry, maybe you should take out a lot of the snails in there and not add a mystery snail. As msjinkzd has said about apple snails, they are the plecos of the invert world in regards to the amount of waste they produce.

Please keep updating this thread as developments are made, I'm learning so much from it! I hope to breed my pygmaeus in the near future as well.

pinkertd

01-06-2009, 2:28 PM

Sara - no ammonia spikes. And the newly hatched fry are fine, just the little bit older ones are the ones that die all the time. I checked nitrates before I did a partial water change last night and they were only 20. That's not bad considering i get around 10 out of the tap and i'm not keeping the tank clean on purpose, and it had been 8 days since my last partial water chance, specifically to not have a water change affect the fry. Temp is always steady at 78-79F. I check temps every day. So I can check off that water changes are killing them, I didn't do one this time. I am checking things off one by one. I don't know what to try next. I am emailing the rare cory expert again tonight and trying to contact someone else that I have read about a while back that overcome his huge obstacles in trying to get the fry to live while breeding either hasbrosis or hastatus....I can't remember which. Don't be afraid to ask a lot of questions, maybe you guys can think of something I'm not thinking of.

excuzzzeme

01-06-2009, 4:33 PM

Wow! That IS small! I don't know how you manage to see them! Good luck with them.

pinkertd

01-06-2009, 5:16 PM

You have to stare at the gravel for at least 15 minutes then you'll catch a glimpse of a teeny fry or two move around a bit in the gravel. And you have to do it pretending to be a statue that they won't notice! LOL!

msjinkzd

01-06-2009, 5:18 PM

sorry to hear that deb! i really hope you figure it out and keep this thread updated, it could be an invaluable resource for those of us interested in giving this a try!

pinkertd

01-06-2009, 5:34 PM

I'm trying not to give up and wave the white flag. I'm hoping if I can figure this out it will help everyone here who would like to raise pygmy cories. If I ever do give up, I will rehome them. They are too small to be housed in any of my other tanks with my other fish. Can you just picture them coming face to face with a discus or being followed routinely by the "monkey" loaches! :D

On a brighter note, I have several embers that have nice plump bellies. They really love the live white worms I feed. I had placed a clump of moss in the upper left hand corner of that tank to give the new molly fry some cover since most of them are staying high rather than low hiding in the plants, and this morning I had a plump ember underneath the moss, in the middle, with 7 or 8 slimmer embers circling all round her, over and over again. I've not seen any of them do that before. So....who knows!

msjinkzd

01-06-2009, 5:44 PM

Mine do this alot too! But they go into a large sword plant. I want to try collecting soon as well with the embers. Let me know what happens with yours!

pinkertd

01-06-2009, 9:08 PM

:D:D:D:D:D
This cutie is bigger than the other two I have been watching. He actually looks like a baby cory now, but dang....still dives into the gravel. I think I might have seen 2, one on each side of the tank. Wish the pictures were better but he was quick!! And then gone again!

msjinkzd

01-06-2009, 9:12 PM

woooohooo! all hope is not lost! :D

katuuuz

01-06-2009, 9:13 PM

BreellaBlue87

01-06-2009, 9:15 PM

awesome. that's cool how their shells start off small too. grow almost like bone i'd assume. i always thought they found their shells and inhabited them. as you can tell i'm a newbie.

by the by, i have a baby snail of some sort that must have hitchhiked on a piece of driftwood from my lps. i'm just gonna let him chill. anything i should know about keeping him?

Lol we're talking about the cory's not the snails, but post a pic in another thread and we can help id your snail.

BTW, gratz on finding some more large fry!

pinkertd

01-06-2009, 9:28 PM

Funny! The cory fry is in the center of pic 1 facing out towards us, it's behind the snail in pic 2 (head in the gravel) and you can see his tail and body in pic 3 (still poking his head in the gravel). This is a major accomplishment. I've been trying to get surviving fry past the 2-3 week point for 6 months!:D

saram521

01-06-2009, 9:51 PM

I suspected that your water params. and temp. were all in check, but thought I'd ask since that info hadn't been disclosed in the thread yet. It's great that you found another older pygmy! Crossing my fingers for you!

Born4spd

01-06-2009, 10:28 PM

Hahah my cories spawned today and laid eggs all over my apple snails :D

Good luck with your pygmy cats!

fishorama

01-07-2009, 5:29 PM

Great news Debbi!

Just a thought, what's your air temp above the water surface? Don't know about you but I keep my house kinda coolish, ~68*F in winter. I know the water & lights help but maybe the older babies surface more & possibly chill their tiny tummies?

jm1212

01-07-2009, 7:31 PM

awesome!

pinkertd

01-07-2009, 9:11 PM

pinkertd

01-07-2009, 9:14 PM

The big guy is very active tonight, lots of swimming. I'm hoping that's a good thing. Was able to snap a few more pics.....

serissime

01-07-2009, 11:52 PM

oh my... so adorable! Throw a couple my way! :)
(good work!)

pinkertd

01-10-2009, 8:01 AM

I want to try to keep this thread up-to-date since it's a great reference for me to go back and look at dates for fry. Didn't see the bigger fry at all yesterday so I got worried. There are a LOT of places that I cannot see in that tank....thick water sprite grows along the gravel, the taiwan moss is very thick on top of two pieces of driftwood, I have several crypts that are getting thick....basically I can't examine much except the very front third of the tank. So it's always possible fry are out of sight. (hit enter for Nolapete)

I turned the lights on manually this morning to catch the fish out of their beds!:grinyes: I saw the big fry. Today I can actually see his stomach has filled out since the other day. He (or she) is actually a baby fish now. And I was able to spot several other tiny fry from the eggs that hatched in late December. So those fry are about 10-14 days old and still extremely tinier than heck! I've begun to feed the tank heavier than before and am including frozen BBS twice a day. (hit enter for Nolapete)

And I am not trimming my taiwan moss anymore since I may actually have had a hand in losing that one fry last week since I noticed him floating up dead after I had done a trim. Since the fry were always spotted in the gravel, I didn't really think any were in the top few inches of the moss. (hit enter for Nolapete)

The bigger fry must be a survivor from right after I changed the tank over from a 20H to a 20L, so that was around 11/20. I'm thinking changing out the teeny tank so the fry don't have to far to surface was a big key here! (hit enter for Nolapete!!)

fishorama

01-10-2009, 11:36 AM

So cool! Sounds like your changes are working. I'd have thought at ~2 months old the big baby would look more like a little adult. Is it losing it's spottiness?

pinkertd

01-10-2009, 3:23 PM

He still looks spotty. I'm thinking the spots down his side will turn into the black strip the pygmaeus have.

toddnbecka

01-10-2009, 6:11 PM

Great pics, almost looks like a tiny loach.

pinkertd

01-13-2009, 8:23 PM

And here he is on 1/13:

msjinkzd

01-13-2009, 8:29 PM

He is really starting to look like a big kid! Is it just hte one you have seen or hard to say now knowing with the dense planting?

pinkertd

01-13-2009, 8:37 PM

Just one that size, must be from a spawn around end of November. Some nights you see nothing in that tank. Tonight I saw one fry surface from the back of the tank that was from the last hatch. Then disappeared in the back again.

toddnbecka

01-13-2009, 10:21 PM

Geez, by the time spring rolls back around you should actually have some fry large enough to see w/out a magnifying glass and eyestrain.

pinkertd

01-14-2009, 6:48 AM

Geez, by the time spring rolls back around you should actually have some fry large enough to see w/out a magnifying glass and eyestrain.

For sure! This guy is actually is no longer able to dive between every piece of gravel. I think when he can't get between any of the gravel anymore, we'll call him a fish instead of a fry!:)

Dwarf Puffers

01-14-2009, 7:25 AM

I think when he can't get between any of the gravel anymore, we'll call him a fish instead of a fry!:)

:D

Dense planting FTW! I wish you luck with all of them, captive-bred pygmies are the essence of accomplishment! :silly:

Do you think, since you only found one of the older fry dead, that he might have been the one you hadn't seen?

fishorama

01-14-2009, 8:41 AM

He looks like he's getting a stripe & losing the spottiness, so cute.

pinkertd

01-14-2009, 8:44 AM

Do you think, since you only found one of the older fry dead, that he might have been the one you hadn't seen?

I don't know, but I want to say no since when I spied this guy, he seemed bigger than the two I had been watching.

It was cute when I was staring at the gravel and plant leaves looking for him last night, lo and behold he was perched on a piece of driftwood like one of the adults would be. It just looked so cute, unfortunately that piece of driftwood is kinda out of range for the camera so the shots didn't come out.

Amost forget to mention, what's even nicer about some success here? Only 7 of the cories are themselves captive bred. The rest are all wilds!

pinkertd

01-14-2009, 8:47 AM

He looks like he's getting a stripe & losing the spottiness, so cute.

You are right! He did not have the stripe on 1/7!

pinkertd

01-21-2009, 11:47 AM

An update a week later........the big fry can't get between the gravel any longer. So he's officially a little fish now, guess we should name him (or her)! He's doing well, growing and lost some spots. He is not big enough to join the group yet so he still hangs out by himself. I'll try to get a new picture up when I get time.

Not doing so well again on the fry that are 3-4 weeks old. Still so tiny and very rarely come out of the gravel. I did a partial water change a few days ago, I siphon water out slowly and add it back in slowly and temperature match. Everything seemed to look ok. But I don't think I took the time to watch the tank afterwards. I saw the big fry and assumed everything was fine. Did another partial water change last night, but this time sat down afterwards to watch the tank. Maybe 10 minutes (wasn't watching the clock) later I see the first baby fry floating. I take it out. Maybe 5 minutes after that I see another. I take that out. Any maybe 5 minutes after that I see yet another:cry:!

Now I'm frantic to find the big fry and it took probably another 5 minutes before he came out of his hiding spot to swim. He's fine. Went back later and he was eating. So, now I know that my partial water changes are doing the fry in at this point in time????? I don't get it. They made it through the other water changes but not this one? Put your thinking caps on here and see if you can help me to understand this. And yes, I always use the appropriate amount of dechlor.

toddnbecka

01-21-2009, 1:24 PM

Sounds to me like your water supply is occaisonally being loaded with something the smaller fry are sensitive to. Water treatment facilities sometimes use various different chemicals but never notify anyone that they do so. I would suggest either using bottled water (after testing it to make sure it's suitable) or install a carbon filter on your faucet to screen out contaminants before dechlorinating.

newportjon

01-21-2009, 2:24 PM

Dwarf Puffers

01-21-2009, 3:25 PM

Maybe add another filter, take out a couple of cups of water a day and stir up the waste so it goes into the filters more easily, and skip WC's altogether? You could try using bottled spring water, too...

pinkertd

01-21-2009, 6:45 PM

Hey pink, what did their eggs look like?

I've got 6 pygmy corys in my tank at work and I suspect they're laying eggs. However, I haven't found any fry but that may be b/c of the other fish in my tank. I have enough plants/moss in there that a few should be able to survive.

I've been finding eggs in the silicone on the corners of the tank, random parts of the glass, plants and my driftwood. They look like sesame seeds.

It very well might be them. I just had to run downstairs and look at the sesame seed on the bagels, the pygmaeus cory eggs are about half the size of a sesame seed. I think the other two strains of pygmy cory eggs are a bit bigger than the pygmaeus. Which ever strain they are, pygmy cory fry are among the smallest of all the fry. They will stay in the substrate and feed on microorganisms. The parent cories won't eat them but your other tank inhabitants might!

newportjon

01-21-2009, 9:47 PM

Yea, they're like mini-sesame seeds.

I'm hoping there are some fry down there. There really are a lot of places for them to hide.

Hopefully, I'll find some soon.

fishorama

01-21-2009, 10:56 PM

Oh, Debbi, I'm so sorry about the fry. Maybe just letting the water sit for 24 hours with an airstone? I know I read of "winter water" somewhere, I don't recall if it's more dissolved gases or what that causes problems.

pik01

02-02-2009, 5:42 AM

I've just stumbled onto this thread and I have to say, your patience is more than commendable. You got another fan rooting for you and your fry!

pinkertd

02-02-2009, 9:19 PM

It's been a little over 3 weeks and I was finally able to snap a couple of pics of the little guy. He's pretty cute. I also have fry in the gravel again, maybe a week or two old now.

cam191919

02-02-2009, 9:24 PM

awwwwwwwww

pik01

02-03-2009, 2:01 AM

so he's officially graduated from fry to fish?

pam916

02-03-2009, 2:49 AM

Too cute! Good job.

fishorama

02-03-2009, 9:24 AM

no more baby spots but a cute chubby tummy, adorable!

pinkertd

02-03-2009, 12:01 PM

Yes, he's officially graduated from fry to fish now. I don't know if he's joined the adults, the adults are always in the back corner behind the moss-covered driftwood or under the wisteria hiding. He's hungry all the time so he swims around a lot more than the adults do, but I spotted him swimming out from behind the driftwood last night.

Death Pony

02-07-2009, 11:52 PM

Nice!!! Good luck with them.

pinkertd

02-11-2009, 1:02 PM

What an amazing difference! I cannot believe how much he has grown since 1/13!! The first 3 pictures were taken on 1/13. The rest are today!

noodles62

02-11-2009, 1:13 PM

He's so cute! :hearts:

toddnbecka

02-11-2009, 2:41 PM

:thm:

msjinkzd

02-11-2009, 2:47 PM

WOOHOO! Great shots as always Deb!

pik01

02-11-2009, 4:17 PM

wow, he lost all his freckles and gained a very handsome stripe :) Has he got a name? Or better yet, any more surviving fry to play with?

pinkertd

02-11-2009, 4:45 PM

No freckles, no name either. I spotted one decent size fry today. I gave them lots more places to hide so it also makes it harder to find em.

fishycat

03-18-2010, 8:00 PM

Amazing! Any more successes? I have habrosus and would love for them to breed!

2rivers

04-06-2011, 12:58 PM

Bump-I cant get shots of the fry as good as pinkertd-great info-Ive only raised 4or5 to adulthood but Im gettin better

bgourami320

04-06-2011, 2:00 PM

Awsome, he looks great!

captmicha

04-09-2011, 10:09 PM

Sorry, I didn't read all 9 pages but have some questions that may have already been brought up.

Why don't you use a sand substrate for the bottom? You could even get pink colored sand or whatever so the babies stand out.

Why don't you heavily plant the tank or add more nitrite consuming plants so you can withhold water changes at the stage when the fry are experiencing high mortality rates?