i need help..

[wisp12343]

so my first tank is about a month and half old. 10 gallon with some anacharis, water wisteria and java moss all bought from petco.

2 of my neons tetras died today from what i believe to be ick. my betta is depressed and barely moving. i put salt in the tank to treat it.

ammonia and nitrites are at 0 and nitrates are very low.

i dont know if im doing something wrong, or if i should try a different type of fish.

any thoughts on attractive fish? guppies? cichlids?
any comments would be appreciated.

[wisp12343]

the picture is from like 6 days ago when i got the betta.

[NeonFlux]

Hey wisp, didn't we talk about heat and salt to treat ich at FlashChat? Well okay, I'll try and make it as simple, and specific as possible. Okay...listen carefully and go slowly with this.

1. What you would want to do is get the heater's arrow meter and set the temperature to 75 degrees Fahrenheit , then next day 78, until you get to 84-86 degrees. 86 degrees should be 30 degrees Celsius on the left side of your thermometer.
2. If you see ich on the fish LIKE right now, please wait for a few days until you cannot see ich on the fishes anymore.
4. Now what you want to do now, is simply salt the tank. Use table salt or aquarium salt. Salt slowly and carefully. Be sure to dissolve the salt in a bottle or a cup first.

Once you know you have to do a water change, turn off your heater, do a good 50% water change, and then salt the percent you took off. Remember, salt will not evaporate. Keep at it with the salt for 2 weeks, then it should be no more. Good luck wispy.

[wisp12343]

k.. so ich has been on the fish for the past week or so.. the tank is about 80 at the moment as ive been slowly raising the heat. ive been slowly adding the salt solution. should i have waited till there werent any white dots on the fish?

[aquatrippe]

hi, I have to disagree with NeonFlux's suggestions on salt treating ich,especially the use of table salt which is never suggested for aquarium use.

The first thing you want to do is determine if you are actually looking at ich or some other disease. To the inexperienced eye, ich and columnaris [white body fungus] can often look the same.

Neon tetras are particularly prone to ich, so my guess is you are dealing with ich. With some species heat treating for ich is a good solution, but neons do not tolerate very warm water well. Their ideal temp is 79 F.

I suggest you forget about salt and raising the temp with neons and use half the recommended dose of a malachite green based ich remedy. Petco should be able to help you locate it. My experience is that half dose is effective unless you have a severe infestation.

Ich can only be killed in the free swimming stage when they are naked to the eye. The cyst falls off the fish and this is where it has to be eliminated before the spores attach to other fish. This is how it spreads.

once you have eliminated the ich, you need to focus on preventative measures.

Keeping your temp constant is a very important part of ich prevention as are regular partial water changes AT THE SAME TEMP as the existing water.

btw, I think you can let your betta out of that tub and into the tank, I have never had trouble with bettas and neons together.

[aquatrippe]

forgot to answer your question about other fish:

Neons are great fish so if you like neons, be patient, do research about them online and you will be able to establish a colony. Neons and most tetras do best in group of 7+.

Your aquarium is too small for most cichlids, some dwarf varieties can work in small aquariums but they can be more demanding than neons.

zebra danios, black neons [not really neons at all], serapae tetras, dwarf gouramis are attractive easy to maintain fish and are compatable with neons.

[NeonFlux]

hi, I have to disagree with NeonFlux's suggestions on salt treating ich,especially the use of table salt which is never suggested for aquarium use.

The first thing you want to do is determine if you are actually looking at ich or some other disease. To the inexperienced eye, ich and columnaris [white body fungus] can often look the same.

Neon tetras are particularly prone to ich, so my guess is you are dealing with ich. With some species heat treating for ich is a good solution, but neons do not tolerate very warm water well. Their ideal temp is 79 F.

I suggest you forget about salt and raising the temp with neons and use half the recommended dose of a malachite green based ich remedy. Petco should be able to help you locate it. My experience is that half dose is effective unless you have a severe infestation.

Ich can only be killed in the free swimming stage when they are naked to the eye. The cyst falls off the fish and this is where it has to be eliminated before the spores attach to other fish. This is how it spreads.

once you have eliminated the ich, you need to focus on preventative measures.

Keeping your temp constant is a very important part of ich prevention as are regular partial water changes AT THE SAME TEMP as the existing water.

btw, I think you can let your betta out of that tub and into the tank, I have never had trouble with bettas and neons together.

aquatrippe, no offense, but I recently had cardinal tetras that had ich, and at 86 degrees Fahrenheit, they had no issues at all. Even with aquatic plants, Ich is removed and dead out my tank within days. I would have to disagree with your recommendation on the use of malachite green for the inexperienced wispy12343. I would not recommend dosing malachite green, it contains chemicals that can render your tank invertless and it leaves a nasty green/blue stain on your aquarium silicone seals. So be it if it's effective, but what happens if you want snails or shrimp in your tank one day?

Invert forum:Thread post: Snails dying on me.

wispy12343: zomg!, why did my snails die!?!
NeonFlux: Did you use malachite green?
wispy12343: yea, wen I used it to treat ich.
NeonFlux: malachite green is probably still leaking chemicals from the silicone seals, or something, sorry to say this, but you can't have inverts in your 10 gallon tank, wispy.
wispy12343: OMG I just bought snails from msjinkzed. OH NOO.


Heh It may even manage to kill the fish, (not most likely, but it can happen) or aquatic plants(maybe). Have you not thought of all that, aquatrippe? It's very nice of you to interpret about the life cycle on ich, however, very informative of you.

So in my opinion, and I'm sure everyone's opinion here on APC will recommend heat and salt. It's the best solution to completely, obliterate ich. wispy12343, just be slow on raising the temperture, alright? You don't want to go too far ahead and blast off with 86 degrees when you are like at 75 right now or something...preferably, up 1 degree a day...

wispy12343, if you can't handle all of this, then I have a simple solution for you.

Use Ich attack (http://www.novalek.com/kordon/ich_attack/) by kordon, it does not contain chemicals, and it's 100% organic and herbal and it may possibly work for you as it worked for me with the heat up to 86.

http://www.novalek.com/kordon/ich_attack/images/Ich-Attack-4&16oz-sizes.jpg

Good luck.

[aquatrippe]

neonflux after reading your reply, I did a search and found that many people suggest the salt cure for ich. I thought it had been discredited but evidently It is a common cure.

I have use heat only, to eliminate ich very effectively, but never used salt. My experience with neons is that they do not tolerate temps at the 86+range for extended periods required to kill ich.

I have personally never had a bad experience with the commercially prepared ich meds, but every med has its drawbacks, danger to inverts in one with these meds. I didn't know the poster had inverts, but clearly if you do have, or have scaleless fish, stay away from m.green and meth blue.

Cardinal tetras tolerate and seem to prefer higher temps, one reason they make such good tankmates with Discus.

I had a colony of cardinal tetras given to me ridden with ich, but after feeding them garlic flake and keeping them at temps of 86 for 2 weeks the ich was gone.

Looking on the net, I do see people have used table salt in place of aquarium salt but I cannot see that this is worth the risk, caking agents and iodine are in table salt. Why mess with that when aquarium salt is so cheap and easy to get.

so, my mistake in thinking salt is not an option. I would personally however not go the raised temp route with neons. Others will probably disagree

[aquatrippe]

oh and I second the suggestion of trying the organic ich remedies although I haven't used them they are definitely worth a try and probably effective

[wisp12343]

alright. well thanks for your oppinions, and it's wisp not wispy. haha so how long do i have the salt in the tank before i start to do the water changes? and it looks like im gonna have to start over in terms of fish. another neon died last night. and my betta is not doin so good. could the salt be affecting him?

[Kevin S.]

I would try the neons if I were u again Wisp and then maybe one centerpiece fish. Or u could get a few Panda corys(5) and one larger fish.

[13enzene]

Do salt and Heat treatment for at least 10 days or at minimum 3 days after you see no spots on your fish. Then and only then you can start removing the salt and lowering the temperature. As for neons not tolerating high temps, as long as you monitor them and keep O2 in the water I would assume they should be fine. I treated Ich on my black skirted tetras (of whom can be kept in a room temp aquarium) at temps up to and surpassing 86F and salt. I just added an air stone to keep the O2 content up and they seemed fine with it.

Also on what fish you might try, you could keep trying neons, however they can be a bit fragile from what I have read and heard. Guppies are nice but will multiply if you don't get just 1 sex or if you don't seperate males/females. If you like the neons general appearance you may want to check out glowlight tetras. They are more hardy and just as nice looking imo. I picked up a few the otherday on special (I was going to get neons but have had people tell me stories of how fragile they can be) and am very pleased with them.

http://www.aquahobby.com/gallery/img/Hemigrammus_erythrozonus_3.jpg

[Hooked Newbie]

Ok... This is a very good read on Ich. I would not consider using ANYTHING except the heat salt method in any of my tanks regardless of the species. IMO, the specific species would only have bearing as to what period I raised the temp and what concentration of salt that I added to.

http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/docs/health/ich.shtml

[severum mama]

I would try the neons if I were u again Wisp and then maybe one centerpiece fish. Or u could get a few Panda corys(5) and one larger fish.
Do NOT add any fish until you have the ich problem sorted out.

Add aquarium salt as directed on the packaging, and slowly bring the heat up to 86-88. If done over the course of several days, the neons will be fine. Remember that you will have to replace the amount of salt that you remove with every water change during treatment. It is my experience that neons (and most other fish for that matter) tolerate this method much better than the harsh chemicals in ich medications. I've used the heat/salt method many times as an employee of a LFS (before we switched suppliers anyway, lol) and had great success with it in the past. Continue the heat/salt treatment for 2 weeks after you see the last signs of ich-- it is not possible to rid your tank of ich within just a few days and this will ensure it is actually gone. Better safe than sorry. When you are done, slowly turn the temperature back down to normal, and simply remove the salt through normal water changes. Good luck.

[KarlTh]

One change from that - use common table salt. Tenth of the price and exactly the same. Ignore any mythmongerers who bang on about additives; it's a load of codswallop.

Back a page, neons and cardinals are not the same; neons prefer cooler temperatures and 86F will suit cardinals far better than neons.

[Bravofleet4]

Neon tetras aren't always hardy fish b/c supposedly the ones that are easily available are usually highly in-bred. After you get them, it's not surprising to get high die off rates initially. After a month or two, though, those that are still around are there to stay IME.

Bettas, on the other hand, seem really hardy. You haven't mentioned any physical symptoms except lack of energy. I hope that hasn't changed or gotten worse.

[Hooked Newbie]

Neon tetras aren't always hardy fish b/c supposedly the ones that are easily available are usually highly in-bred. After you get them, it's not surprising to get high die off rates initially. After a month or two, though, those that are still around are there to stay IME.

Bettas, on the other hand, seem really hardy. You haven't mentioned any physical symptoms except lack of energy. I hope that hasn't changed or gotten worse.


The majority of neons in the hobby are still wild caught. That is why they are more sensitive to changes.

[severum mama]

One change from that - use common table salt. Tenth of the price and exactly the same. Ignore any mythmongerers who bang on about additives; it's a load of codswallop.

Back a page, neons and cardinals are not the same; neons prefer cooler temperatures and 86F will suit cardinals far better than neons.

Yes, I agree, but couldn't remember the exact dosage and I know that the dosage is printed on the aquarium salt packaging- not trying to be a mythmongerer, LOL. ;) Do you happen to remember the dosage?

[KarlTh]

No, but it's posted all over tinterwebs.

I am aware that in the US most cardinals are wild caught, but neons? I thought they were bred in their millions in fish farms.

[wisp12343]

my betta now that i look really closely has tiny white spots on his fins..

[Bravofleet4]

i don't get quite what's happening with your betta based upon the picture b/c it looks like it's sitting in its own container. Is it sharing water with the neons? I'm guessing though you just wanted it sit still so you could take a picture.

Next time, think about quarantine. It would be better if you could move sick or unaffected fish to another tank. However, if you do that you will risk stressing your fish more by putting in new conditions. It's a trade-off I guess...

[jpappy789]

No, but it's posted all over tinterwebs.

I am aware that in the US most cardinals are wild caught, but neons? I thought they were bred in their millions in fish farms.

I've been told that both were mostly wild caught...not sure if that's actually true though.

Are the spots raised?

[Hooked Newbie]

I've been told that both were mostly wild caught...not sure if that's actually true though.

Are the spots raised?


From everyone I've talked to (suppliers, importers, wholesalers, retailers) both neons and cardinals are primarily wild caught. There's just not enough profit margin on the breeder side yet. Sadly, the fish that are predominantly bred and available via hobby aquaria are the ones that are tough to capture in numbers in the wild.... vicious little cycle.

[jpappy789]

That's what I thought. They are very difficult to breed, so I couldn't imagine it would be easy to pull it off large scale.

[KarlTh]

Must be a pond difference. Most of ours come from the Far East.