Dying Albino Socolofi

[myswtsins]

A couple days ago I found a dead albino socolofi in my tank and today another one is on it's way out. I did not think much of the 1 death because I honestly did not think they were going to make it since day 1. They are all VERY submissive & their overall health was not great when I got them.

Recent changes in the tank are the addition of aquarium salt about a week ago because they were scratching occasionally, at about 1/2 the dose though, with a temp raise, I also added a used filter to the tank. The filter was rinsed in hot water and dried out before hand though.

These guys normally hanging out on the bottom of the tank and sift through the sand but this guy is just laying around and his eyes are very cloudy. He does a coughing motion too, enough that it disturbs the sand.

Ph - 8.0
Kh - 8kdh (which is slightly lower my normal 12)
Ammonia - 0
Nitrite - 0
Nitrate - 5

Recently almost all my frogbit has died off too, the salt or heat was my first thought but now I do not know if there is a connection. Can not see much from the pictures but pictures never hurt! :help:

[Coler]

Doesn't look good for him. Tank parameters are great - no other fish showing symptoms ?

With that many fish, you'd be very lucky not to pick up a couple of weak links - could be the tank they were in at the LFS, a weak strain etc. How do the socolofi's feed ?

If you can, remove him and any other sickly looking fish to a quarantine tank. I might even go so far as to remove all the socolofis to a QT for a few weeks - if only because as they are quite submissive in there you could feed them up a bit and re-introduce.

You probably don't need me to say that you shouldn't ever take on a fish to your any 'show' tanks (as opposed to maybe a rescue to a QT) if you are worried about their health at purchase...asking for trouble unfortunately.

The more I think about it the more I would remove the socolofi to a QT asap to protect the rest of your very nice stock.

[M. Boona]

:( I'm sorry to hear that. Your water parameters are good so don't feel bad it's not your fault. If it's just the socolfi's that aren't doing well, I definitely agree with Coler, it might be something with that group of fish. Could be a weak/bad strain or maybe they just weren't healthy enough to be sold and couldn't adjust to the move then the new tank.

Keep us posted, hopefully it's just these two fish and not any more.

[blue2fyre]

I agree it could just be the strain. I had a couple of albino socolofis when I first started my tank and they were really feisty. To the the point I had to remove them.

[myswtsins]

Thanks guys! It took a lot longer than I was expecting but I got a QT tank up (20gL). The used filter I just bought does not work, that is what took so long, fortunately I recently bought a brand new filter for a friend of mine and they are procrastinators! :)


Doesn't look good for him. Tank parameters are great - no other fish showing symptoms ?

With that many fish, you'd be very lucky not to pick up a couple of weak links - could be the tank they were in at the LFS, a weak strain etc. How do the socolofi's feed ?

If you can, remove him and any other sickly looking fish to a quarantine tank. I might even go so far as to remove all the socolofis to a QT for a few weeks - if only because as they are quite submissive in there you could feed them up a bit and re-introduce.

You probably don't need me to say that you shouldn't ever take on a fish to your any 'show' tanks (as opposed to maybe a rescue to a QT) if you are worried about their health at purchase...asking for trouble unfortunately.

The more I think about it the more I would remove the socolofi to a QT asap to protect the rest of your very nice stock.

I have not noticed any differences in any of the other fish BUT none of the other socolofi seemed affected when I found the dead one either.

They usually hang around the sand collecting food that falls & only come up for food when there is none on the ground. Recently the majority of them have started putting on some weight and get right into the mix at feeding time. The one that died & this sick on are among the smallest fish in the tank (of their age group).

I mail ordered all the fish at the same time besides the labs & OBs, from a VERY reputable place, so unfortunately I did not get to see them before I bought them. But I do appreciate you being very clear about not introducing possibly unhealthy fish into my tanks. :)

As I stated before I had my doubts about them from the start though, being so submissive & their fins were rather tattered (good WCs & stress coat with aloe cleared that RIGHT up). Now that all the fish are maturing their submissive behavior might be becoming more of a factor.

I have only moved the very sick one to the QT for now. I want to see if he perks up AT ALL without any added stress. If he doesn't show signs of improvement withing the next 12-24 hrs I will probably move all the socolofi into the QT. Besides he happened to come to the surface so he was just so easy to catch!! :)


:( I'm sorry to hear that. Your water parameters are good so don't feel bad it's not your fault. If it's just the socolfi's that aren't doing well, I definitely agree with Coler, it might be something with that group of fish. Could be a weak/bad strain or maybe they just weren't healthy enough to be sold and couldn't adjust to the move then the new tank.

Keep us posted, hopefully it's just these two fish and not any more.

Thanks. I think everyone is right that it is just a weak strain if only the socolofi are showing symptoms. They have been in the tank for 2 months showing only signs of improvement until now though which is a bummer. Losing them now after so much improvement makes it harder.


I agree it could just be the strain. I had a couple of albino socolofis when I first started my tank and they were really feisty. To the the point I had to remove them.

Thanks. Yeah I had heard that the albino socolofis could be quite the feisty characters which is why I was surprised when they arrived and were so calm.

[Coler]

Ah - the mail order explains it. I didn't think you would be one to buy sick fish :)

QT is a good plan - turn off the lights for him, see if he perks up. Try feeding him tomorrow & fingers crossed. So long as your other ones are feeding with the rest leave 'em be I would say.

[myswtsins]

Thanks Coler!

New development. His eyes seem to be a little clearer but that could just be the different light (110watt CF 50/50 in main tank, little 15 watt in QT) but now he is falling over a lot & still "coughing". Not looking good. :( Hopefully tomorrow will bring better news!

[myswtsins]

And he is gone. :( I am going to pay extra close attention to everyone else to see if I am gonna pull anyone else out. Thanks again for the advice everyone!

*EDIT* So I examined him a little and didn't see anything abnormal. He was not bloated or sunken, nothing in his air way, gills looked a nice healthy pink, he wasn't slimy or anything. Just thought I'd left everyone know. Oh btw he definitely was a he & the first one the died I am pretty sure was a female (which stinks cause I think there is only 1 or 2 females left). Trying to look on the bright side this gives me a chance to see the differences for sexing purposes.

[Pittbull]

Yeah at this point it would be a wait debate in all and see if anyone else is having any problems i believe it was the weakest fish syndrome for this batch and very well all others are fine because your water perimeters are great..

[efors]

i believe it was the weakest fish syndrome for this batch and very well all others are fine because your water perimeters are great..

I also believe it was the "weakest fish syndrome", if you said that the 2 dead were among the smallest fish in the tank. So, IMHO, what happened was a natural thing and not your fault: Survival of the fittest. It is normal to loose a few fishes that don't adapt well to a new environment.
I hope your problem to be just this and good luck with the rest of your "kids" in your sweet tank! :thm:

[myswtsins]

Thank you very much! So it is unanimous then? :) Thanks for chiming in everyone, it is always nice to hear that others agree with original responders.

Keeping my fingers crossed!

[Pittbull]

Good luck my friend i hope all is fine for you..

[myswtsins]

:swear: More "things" in my tanks! I just checked on the QT tank in case I needed it again and right away I see a wormy thing freaking out! It kinda looks like the nematodes I had before. I tried taking pictures & videos but my camera (and my camera skills) are just not good enough to get pictures of such small things.

They are about 1/4". Some are orangish brown while others are nearly clear. They almost look segmented and have a distinct head and end bump. They wiggle like crazy so it is hard to get much more detail.

I have only seen 4 so far. 1 orangish brown wiggling in the water column, 2 clear in the water column & 1 orangish brown one crawling on the rock.

All decor in the tank was taken from storage except 1 rock from the 72g, for bacteria.

I know there is not much you guys can do without being able to see it but maybe ALL the clues together can help? My guess is nematodes that I am only seeing now because nothing is in the tank to eat them BUT with the deaths lately I am trying not to let anything go unnoticed.


Everyone looks OK in the 72g as of right now, except the scratching still. There is only one noticeably smaller socolofi left and he seems to be ok. I even saw the biggest one do a little shimmy for a (suspected) female. There is only a hand full of floating plants left though, I had over 3/4 of the surface covered with plants 2 weeks ago. :(

[efors]

Hi!
Have you checked recently the nitrate levels? Can you describe your feeding schedule?

[myswtsins]

In the QT nitrates are 0 & it has never been fed. In the 72g the nitrates were 5ppm when I checked 3 days ago. I feed them twice a day slowly over about 45 - 60 second period. They get NLS every evening except Sunday when they fast.

A.M. Foods
Sunday - Fast
Monday - Ocean Nutrition Veggie Flake
Tuesday - ON Veggie Flake (1/2) & algae wafers
Wednesday - Veggies (cucumbers, carrots or lettuce)
Thursday - ON Veggie Flake
Friday - ON Veggie Flake (1/2) & algae wafers
Saturday - Hikari Bio-Pure Spirulina Brine shrimp

[efors]

Everything seems great!
I misunderstood that you were talking about nematodes in the 72gal and the problem is in your QT. Excuse me, please.
To avoid these things and keep my QT cycled, I always have a betta in it. When I need the QT, the betta is moved to a large bowl; but just temporarily.

[myswtsins]

The "things"(nematodes) are in the QT. :) The rock in the QT is from the 72g, which was put there when I put the sick socolofi in there. I just want to rule out that these things have anything to do with my dying fish.

[efors]

I don't think those "things" have anything to do with your dying fish. They just found an environment without predators, IMO.

[myswtsins]

I think you are right but with my inexperience I certainly was not going to take MY word for it. :) Thanks! Back to figuring out why everyone is still scratching.....

[DrNo]

I think you are right but with my inexperience I certainly was not going to take MY word for it. :) Thanks! Back to figuring out why everyone is still scratching.....

Really sorry to hear about the loss. So the entire specimen collection is "scratching" = flashing?

[myswtsins]

Thanks. All the fish in the 72g are flashing/scratching, not a lot but enough. I started a salt/heat treatment about 11 days ago just in case of ich (no sign of ich though).

[myswtsins]

Well I found a dead OB Zebra today. :( I would believe that it is also just a matter of the weakest link but all of them dying at the same time is a bit unusual. Is there anything else I can do to make sure there is nothing wrong in my tank?

[efors]

OK, I want to tell you this, my friend: I started my 55gal tank with 28 juvies. I lost 7 of them during the first 6 weeks; no losses since then on the last 4 months. So don't get freaked, but of course, keep an eye on them.
About the scratching, was there in the tank any sudden drop in temperature? What's the water temp right now? No signs of ich or fin damage in any fish?

[myswtsins]

Thanks for that.

The temperature is normally about 77F in the morning and about 82F right before the lights go out. Right now it is about 82F in the am and 85F in the pm (for salt/heat treatment). There has never been a large or long drop in the temp though.

There is no signs of ich but my largest fish, the dominant yellow lab, does have some damage to his anal fin. I have not noticed any other damage but will check again.

[Pittbull]

What is your Hardness at right now the flashing is also a indication of lower Hardness and it may be as simple as raising it.

[myswtsins]

My Kh is still at 8kdh. I do not have a working GH test kit, for some reason API kits do not work on the water in my area & of course that is what I currently have.

[Pittbull]

Cool i would try to order one on-line if it were me so that you can get a look at the hardness it may be whats wrong at the moment because it sounds like you have everything else in check, take care..

[Pittbull]

I see that the package i sent you was delivered did everything arrive ok..

[myswtsins]

Yup I have a Hagen GH test kit on order right now.

Everything was superb! I can't thank you enough! And don't worry I'll keep some rustys aside for ya. :)

[Pittbull]

cool deal thanks buddy..

[myswtsins]

So I have another sick socolofi. I would not have even mentioned at all (as everyone says it is just nature) but this fish has some different symptoms & does not look as bad as the last one. He has no appetite, swollen belly & and his teeth are brown (none of the others seem to have brown teeth but they don't stay still long enough for me to notice either). He is also by far the biggest socolofi I have!

I have moved him to the QT. From my research online it sounds like bloat. I am going shopping now anyways so while I wait for a response I am going to pick up some Metronidazole & Epson salt just in case you guys agree, if not it is always good to have anyways! :)

[M. Boona]

Yea, the first thing that came to my mind while reading your description was malawi bloat.

[Pittbull]

Totally agree with Boona and your prognosis..

Quick medication, water change and diet change should bring it back around and you were right to place it in the QT.. wow you are having some luck there i hope all goes well for you and the fishes..

[myswtsins]

Thanks M. Boona & Pitbull!
Well not one of my local stores had it in stock so I am ordering it online. But both of my LFS did not recommend meds unless completely necessary but did recommend using cichlid salt, especially since I have a water softener. They also said that African cicihlids are known to scratch/flash but I don't know about that one.

So for now I have added a 1/2 dose of cichlid salt and some Epsom salt & I will see how things go.

Pitbull you mentioned changing the diet, what should I change? I am only feeding what has already been recommended to me. :(


I feed them twice a day slowly over about 45 - 60 second period. They get NLS every evening except Sunday when they fast.

A.M. Foods
Sunday - Fast
Monday - Ocean Nutrition Veggie Flake
Tuesday - ON Veggie Flake (1/2) & algae wafers
Wednesday - Veggies (cucumbers, carrots or lettuce)
Thursday - ON Veggie Flake
Friday - ON Veggie Flake (1/2) & algae wafers
Saturday - Hikari Bio-Pure Spirulina Brine shrimp

At least I got to go to the fish store and see have beautiful my fish are in comparison! (the ones that are surviving anyways!) :)

*EDIT* I forgot to ask if anyone recommends a certain salt or liquid in particular? and the salt should not hurt my plants right?

[Pittbull]

Some plants will be fine but some do not tolerate salt, so it will be a hit and miss situation.. Yeah i just remembered that your feeding almost a spirulina diet, that is worrisome what do you think the percentage is from protein from your feedings..

As for salt i use regular table salt non iodized from grocery store at 1TBL spoon per 5gal but i have never used Epsom salts and i hear that Epsom salt is more for hardness issues in all..

Your pet shop is correct never medicate unless completely necessary i didn't get into it on the info because it can be a touchy situation type feeling with hobbyists..

The whole medicate or not to medicate is for hobbyist that don't have a clue what is wrong with their fish and they throw in a medication soup mix which will equal out bad for the fishes..

So at this point it may be Bloat or some type of Intestinal Parasite that may be the culprit try the salt route with frequent water changes and see if any progress on health is restored to the fish.. If not you may have to medicate..

[myswtsins]

Some plants will be fine but some do not tolerate salt, so it will be a hit and miss situation.. Yeah i just remembered that your feeding almost a spirulina diet, that is worrisome what do you think the percentage is from protein from your feedings..
Huh? The only thing that is high in spirulina is the 1 cube of brine shrimp a week, which I was told was good for them to have 1 meal of spirulina a week. (My rustys get most of that anyways, certainly not the albinos getting a surplus of it) All the foods are under 35% protein except the spirulina brine shrimp.


As for salt i use regular table salt non iodized from grocery store at 1TBL spoon per 5gal but i have never used Epsom salts and i hear that Epsom salt is more for hardness issues in all..
I am using the epsom salt in the QT as a laxitive for the bloated guy.


Your pet shop is correct never medicate unless completely necessary i didn't get into it on the info because it can be a touchy situation type feeling with hobbyists..

The whole medicate or not to medicate is for hobbyist that don't have a clue what is wrong with their fish and they throw in a medication soup mix which will equal out bad for the fishes..

So at this point it may be Bloat or some type of Intestinal Parasite that may be the culprit try the salt route with frequent water changes and see if any progress on health is restored to the fish.. If not you may have to medicate..
I have always been one to try to avoid medicating but like you said sometimes you have no choice. Although from my understanding if it is bloat, it is already too late for meds even.
Dumb question. Why should I add the table salt? :) I have had aquarium salt in the tank & now I am using the cichlid salt, is there any further reason to be adding salt?

[Pittbull]

Isn't all of these foods high in spirulina or kelp.. or are you feeding something different at different times..

A.M. Foods
Sunday - Fast
Monday - Ocean Nutrition Veggie Flake
Tuesday - ON Veggie Flake (1/2) & algae wafers
Wednesday - Veggies (cucumbers, carrots or lettuce)
Thursday - ON Veggie Flake
Friday - ON Veggie Flake (1/2) & algae wafers
Saturday - Hikari Bio-Pure Spirulina Brine shrimp


Salt is a remedy for the ease of breathing gill function along with a stress reducer and will step up the healing process, well that's what i have heard, that aquarium and cichlid salt is just salt now the cichlid salt will have a little more trace elements just for cichlids but basically the same..

[myswtsins]

I had no idea they were all high in spirulina! :eek: Kelp is also an issue? Kelp is the 8th ingredient in the ON Veggie flake & spirulina is the 17th. Being that low on the list and with a protein count of 35% I would not have though it was high in spirulina. The ON Veggie flake is specially designed for herbivore African cichlids too. The algae wafers have no spirulina or kelp & of course the veggies do not as well. Spirulina is the 8th ingredient in the NLS (which they get every evening).

I really thought I had a good feeding list, seeing as how it was approved so many times. :( I certainly never heard that kelp is also a problem.

[blue2fyre]

Sorry to hijack but I had no idea spirulina was an issue.

I feed my fish veggie flakes in the morning then african cichlid pellets in the evening. They fast on Friday and get fresh veggies on Saturday before the water change on Sunday. For a while I was only feeding the pellets which have have a protein count of 45%. I've never had any issues. Doesn't NLS also have a high protein percent? The whole malawi bloat thing has always confused me anyway :( myswtsins (http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/member.php?u=87644) I'm sorry for all the rotten luck you are having lately! You really are doing everything right I have no idea why this is happening.

[myswtsins]

Feel free to hijack my threads at anytime! :) We are all here to learn. Thanks blue2fyre.
From what I understood NLS is fine & as long as other foods are kept under 36% protein (some even say 38%) they should also be fine. Everything pitbull is telling me now though is news to me.

So the little guy passed away a few minutes ago. Unlike any of the others when he died he went belly up but still on the bottom of the tank, the others were on the bottom but sideways. So I did an "autopsy" (to the best of my ability) in hopes of finding an answer. I found nothing. When I cut open his belly there was a definite air/gas escaping but nothing looked particularly irritated, infested or bloated even. There was some slight discoloration on his scales behind his left pectoral fin.

Now of course I don't really know what I am looking at but my guess is that everything looked healthy, I have seen the inside of sport fish so I have some small idea what the insides should look like.

Is there anything in particular I should take a look at before he is laid to rest? I do not want to lose anymore fish, especially my biggest ones. :(

[M. Boona]

Wow, good for you. I've never done an autopsy on any of my fish or ever even thought to.

I'm not much help and don't know what I could tell you, but hopefully someone will see your post and have some advice/suggestions that can help you out.

[Pittbull]

Sorry my friend but i may have typed in a way that i didn't come across right.. i don't use most of the brands that you are using that are spirulina or veggie flakes so i was unsure of the quality of spirulina and kelp percentages except Ocean Nutrition that i use for my fry..

What happens is that most often most foods for fishes will state they are veggie foods and or spirulina foods with the ingredient of the spirulina and kelp way down the list like you stated above only to find the number one ingredient being fish meal..

Factor in the amount of food and percentage of proteins bloat could be an issue and i believe your correct if a fish comes down with bloat the survival rate is very low, sorry i never had an issue with bloat before so this is all knowlegde from reading..

Back to the foods what i do is use the foods that list the main ingredient as number one for EX. as a spirulina based flake i use the omega one super veggie, HBH 8 veggie, wardley spirulina discs, ocean nutrition spirulina and nutrafin spirulina algae, let me break this into a group..


main uses are listed in sequence from 1 being mostly used by me again this is my opinion only and what i use no way am i saying your wrong.. And i didn't list all the Ingredients just the first couple to point out..

1 Omega one super veggie flakes - Ingred. list (1 whole kelp, 2 spirulina, crude protein 33%)

2 HBH 8 veggie flakes - Ingred. list ( 1 spirulina powder, soy flour, pea powder, alfalfa crude protein 28%)

3 Wardley spirulina discs - Ingred. list ( 1 spirulina algae crude protein 32%)

4 Ocean nutrition spirulina flakes - ( 1 plant meals, 2 spirulina, fish solubles crude protein 48% ) this is very high in protein and is what i use for fry..

5 Nurtafin spirulina algae flakes - ( 1 spirulina pacifica, fish meal crude protein 44% )
this is high in protein as well i use it for fry and juvies..

Along with variables of other feedings like whole salmon flakes like Omega one cichlid flakes and NLS pellets/flakes for cichlids with frozens and live foods if heavily fed could pose an issue i use all of my foods in moderation to where i am using a certain amount of food a day and alternate between days with a total different food to break up the routine of just feeding a certain food and only in small amounts.. i do not use all these foods at one time for a feeding.. they are broken up in groups at different times of the week..

Don't take me wrong i am not saying your foods are not good i wouldn't do that to you and this may be a totally different issue but when you said what appeared to your fish symptom wise, a little change to see if the fish could bounce back is all.. and i do understand your mixing your foods up as well..

Fish autopsy cool deal my friend your awesome aye.. well at any rate i didn't mean to confuse you at all my friend i hope all is better soon.. take care..

[efors]

Myswtsins, I'm not so sure that with the foods you are using, your fishes should get Malawi bloat. Maybe that socolofi was eating too much and he is just constipated. If that is the case, Epsom salt and a few days fasting period should be enough, I think.

[Pittbull]

Here is what i feed my fish not all at the same time i feed different foods at different times each day so as to not bore my fish and to switch up the tastes i also offer live foods like brine shrimp and black worms once a month as a treat..

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