First post! Need help with our Cichlid tank...

[LowBelly]

Hi Everyone!

We recently upgraded from keeping about 5 Convicts in a 10 gallon to keeping just a pair in a 29 gallon and added 3 young Africans that are about an inch each.

We thought our biggest problem would be fighting, however, we have a large rock cave in the middle of the tank that really divides it into 3 areas with lots of plants and hiding spots. So far no one picks on anyone else, the Convicts have claimed the cave and are happy with it.

We never had water issues in the 10 gallon so I thought a 29 would be easy. It was cycled when we put the fish in and all the tests looked nice for about two weeks. Then we decided to go back to feeding them twice a day and everything spiked. We did a water change, added cycle, and went back to once a day feedings. Since then we've gotten back up to .25 on the Ammonia and Nitrite about every two to three days. We've used Amquel Ammonia and Nitrite remover twice and that works for about 24 hours and that's it.

Do I just ride it out and keep up with the water changes or am I doing something wrong? Our 10 gallon was much more heavily stocked and it never had problems. We're using a 40 gallon Whisper filter with a Chem-pure bag inside.

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. :help:

[ChrisK]

What type of africans??

[SHAWNIE]

Hi Lowbelly...cycle is probably the issue..it doesnt have self sustaining bacteria which means once you stop using it, the cycle crashes....it has to be used for the life of the tank...if you can find some tetra safestart, which took over for bio spira, that is instant bacteria that you need...you can get some prime or stress coat+ at this point to make the ammonia and nitrites neutralized for 24 hours until another water change...then the fishies can tolerate the mini cycle

[LowBelly]

Thanks Shawnie, I'll look for those products.

Chris, I don't know what kind of Africans they are, I bought them as "assorted africans". Here are pics, the last two are of the same fish.

[Pittbull]

The first photo is a auratus.. the second photo is a red zebra.. the third is a kenyi..

First off if you have male and female convicts your mbuna will be harassed to the point of death not a good match there.. They may be able to fend for themselves for a bit but are no match when the cons decide to breed and really anything else ect. other cons only the parents will prevail..

It sounds as the cycle wasnt complete is why your having issues with ammonia, just keep up the water changes maybe twice a week and this will help..

[Pittbull]

Also hopefully a MOD will move this to the african section for more attention..

[LowBelly]

OK, I'll keep an eye on them. The Cons are not agressive at all towards them at the moment and no one is forced to hide. They swim past each other with no problems, as long as no one goes in the Con's rock/cave.
If they breed and become agressive I'll move them.

[Coler]

I agree with pitbull on the ID of the africans and also as he says the bacteria should catch up quickly to handle the bioload increase - just keep testing and water changing as necessary.

The Melanochromis Auratus is a notoriously unpleasant character - generally I don't reccommend keeping them in even a standard African set-up in a 55G (often considered minimum tank size for rift lake cichlids). Yours is a juvenile. As it matures it will get more muddy brown and become highly highly aggressive - I would put money on it killing a lot/all of your present stock.

If the cons are a true pair they will breed (those guys will get it on in a puddle during an earthquake) and become highly highly aggressive themselves. This is likely to provoke conflict with the africans sooner rather than later and in general I'm afraid you may be looking at World War III.

The Africans you have should generally be kept in a tank of four feet in length, in either mixed groups of 1 male and 3 females or so, to a total of about say 4 species. They require to be highly overstocked to manage their territorial aggression (the other option is an all male tank with no females - more tricky to get stabilised).

My advice, and sorry to be pessimistic, is that you return the Africans to the shop and stick with the pair of convicts - if they breed (and they will presuming they are a pair) you are going to be overrun with convict fry anyway :)

Sorry to be negative - it would not be responsible to reccommend that you keep those fish in that tank and as the africans mature I don't see any solution.

As there's a mix of fish involved, and you have two different acute issues (the cons breeding and the auratus) I'll leave the thread in the general cichlid forum.

Oh and welcome to AC :)

[dent20]

You say you're feeding them twice a day. Until things improve you might try feeding them once every other day. If they're eating a lot and producing a lot of waste that is just going to add to your problem.

[LowBelly]

Thanks so much for your comments!

I have noticed that the "Melanochromis Auratus" is the pushiest of the tank and doesn't even fear the big male Con.

Putting aside the potential for the Cons to get aggressive, how long does it take for the Melanochromis Auratus to become a problem? Is it a matter of months or years?

I included pics of the tank to show you what I mean by the rock cave, the Cons seem to claim the inside and are not territorial anywhere else *yet*. If I remove the fry is there any chance they will get along with anything else?

I do have one other African that is alone and needs a tank upgrade, we've had him for two years and we are actually very attached to him. Again, I don't know what kind he is but I included a pic. Would it be possible to create a set up were he, the red zebra and the kenyi could thrive together?

Sorry if I'm posting out of "form", do you think it would be better to seperate my questions about the different cichlids into different forums?

[Bo$$Cichlid]

Melanochromis Auratus AKA psycho fish, I have never had any good with these guys, maybe others have but my experience says bad news, the older they get the more aggressive they get, especially once the Dom Male changes color, as a stated though has been awhile since I have had and maybe the constant breeding has changed them :evil_lol:.

I think you are more with few months then years before you will want to move them out tank.But some might say different.

[LowBelly]

OK, I'll have to get him outta there and work on a separate tank for the others.

I love the fish in your avatar!

Thanks for helping a newbie, I sure wish the fish store warned us. However, I breed reptiles and I should have known better to check forums for advice before stores. They specialized in fish though so I thought I was safe.

[Bo$$Cichlid]

I think your other fish is an Elongatus Usisya

[LowBelly]

Do you think it could share a tank with the red zebra and kenyi?

[Coler]

The other yellow fellow looks to me to have a lot of labidochromis in him...but not a pure strain lab. caereulus (presuming you mean the yellow fish in the third pic, second post with pics). He doesn't look like an elongatus (pseudotropheus genus) in my opinion.

The best set up for him with other africans would be a tank in excess of three feet, and lots of other africans for company. A tank with just him, the kenyi and zebra would be very unpredictable - because there would be too few fish to prevent the weakest fish (probably the yellow fellow you are most attached to) would be picked on so much...resulting in very likely a dead yellow fish unfortunately.

My advice would be to try and accomodate a 55 Gallon tank, stocked up with your Africans, and keep the cons as a pair in the 29G. If this isn't possible, keep the cons in the 29, and your fave yellow guy in his current tank (what size is that tank?). Return the other fish (zeb & auratus).

I agree it is more a matter of a few months than any period of years before the auratus matures into a problem fish.

I think the fish in bossmans avatar is a neolamprologus sexfasciatus...but I could be wrong (I am counting six stripes - if it is five striped its a tetracephalus I think)

A breeding pair of convicts won't be safe for any other tankmates in a 29G.

No need to apologise for posting in this forum ! Its exactly right for your mix in any event. Keep your threads and posts coming and I'll shove anything specific in where you will get the most answers - members on AC are incredibly helpful especially here in the cichlid forum and all we demand is a) pics of your fish & tanks (yours look great btw :D) and b) you keep on posting and helping us out in our threads as well :)

edit : I looked at the yellow fish again...I take it back on the labidochromis...I think it is in fact mostly male kenyi based on 'lips' and eyes...I am a stoopid head :D

[LowBelly]

Well our latest plan was to trade in the Melanochromis Auratus for an algae eater for the Con tank, but I see that you recommend keeping the Cons totally alone. Our last Con tank was way too small and they still tolerated a pleco and a Blue Pearl Lobster even when they had fry. Was this unusual? They were actually afraid of the Lobster even when they had fry.

Thanks for the advice on the Africans, I don't think our yellow guy will get picked on as he is three times the size as the others, but I'll really have to look into getting them all some friends of thier own species. Like I said Pac Man (the yellow) really needs an upgrade, he is in a 5 gallon! Don't hate me... It worked when he was only an inch but he slowly got bigger and bigger. So we really need to work on another tank anyway, we might as well try and make it work for the red zebra and kenyi as well.

[Pittbull]

Coler (http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/member.php?u=65283) wrote:
(those guys will get it on in a puddle during an earthquake)

:lol: hehehehe

[Pittbull]

LowBelly (http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/member.php?u=93978) wrote:
Was this unusual?

Yes it is because Cons tend to destroy anything nearby when in full breed mode even when their young and breeding..

[LowBelly]

Thanks everyone, I have some work and research to do!

[AfroCichlid]

When you decide to get into and keep African Mbunas ( what your Africans are ), I would avoid keeping Auratus and Kenyi in community setups. They are notorious for being amongst the most aggressive.
On a side note, the water parameters for South/Central American cichlids are different than that of Africans and their behaviour is different as well. One fish's appeasement routine is another's invitation for a fight. These combos rarely work out, and you have some of the most aggressive in either group.
Eventually your tank will be too small ( matter of months ), and you will not be happy with the results. As others have suggested, you could try the Cons in the tank by themselves, and look into setting up a more appropriately sized ( 55 gallons and up ), and stocked African if you're still interested.
You should continue daily water changes until ammonia and nitrite read zero. Good luck!

[KarlTh]

Thanks for the advice on the Africans, I don't think our yellow guy will get picked on as he is three times the size as the others

That will be absolutely no deterrent at all to an auratus. They'd harrass an elephant.

[Bo$$Cichlid]

That will be absolutely no deterrent at all to an auratus. They'd harrass an elephant.

:mwave: That is so true.

[Pittbull]

KarlTh (http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/member.php?u=81908) wrote:
They'd harrass an elephant.

:lol: so true..

[LowBelly]

That will be absolutely no deterrent at all to an auratus. They'd harrass an elephant.

Ya, we're getting rid of him as soon as we can make the trip, the store we got him from is a bit of a drive. Kind of ironic actually, Petco is down the street but I made an extra effort to support local business and go with a store that "specializes" in fish. I'm kind of bummed they didn't warn me.

[AfroCichlid]

I'm kind of surprised they stock those fish at all. With so many more colorful and less aggressive species available I'd think they'd know to specialize in these. Then again, when you end up with Gladiator Tank and all your fish die, they mau be hoping to replace them for you with new Gladiators.

[LowBelly]

I'm kind of surprised they stock those fish at all. With so many more colorful and less aggressive species available I'd think they'd know to specialize in these. Then again, when you end up with Gladiator Tank and all your fish die, they mau be hoping to replace them for you with new Gladiators.

Do you have names of these more colorful and less aggressive species for the newbie? :naughty:
We do have a 55 gallon in the shed and my yellow guy I last posted really needs a bigger tank.

[AfroCichlid]

Yellow Labs, Acei's, Rusty's, Saulosi, Socolofi, some Zebras... others hopefully will add to the list.

[Pittbull]

afra jalo reefs are sweet and fuelleborni..