View Full Version : A Cursed Tank?
Yerdua
01-21-2009, 7:50 PM
I've got a 5g heavily planted tank with some very active shrimp + one snail. Every fish I've placed in there has died. A male betta seemed to have fin rot + died. A female betta died - no visible weirdness. Two male guppies, one right away (couldn't have been the tank) the other a week later (probably the tank?). I've checked all the parameters (ph, alkalinity, nitrate, nitrite, etc) and everything reads fine. The tank has been up for awhile (5 months, now?). The one questionable thing that I do with the tank is use ro filtered water for the water changes... A fishy guy said that the water might be too "pure" can that be?
colinsk
01-21-2009, 8:11 PM
Yes, straight RO has no buffers so the pH can swing wildly. Why did you chose RO? What are your tap water parameters?
Yerdua
01-21-2009, 8:15 PM
I was worried about the chloramines... + haven't really tested the tap.
leeser28
01-21-2009, 8:15 PM
Yes, straight RO has no buffers so the pH can swing wildly. Why did you chose RO? What are your tap water parameters?
Good call! I was trying to figure out why the lack of ions would have an effect.
leeser28
01-21-2009, 8:16 PM
I was worried about the chloramines... + haven't really tested the tap.
Most conditioners take care of both chlorine and chloramine.
If your KH/GH is high enough to keep your pH stable then I doubt the water is too pure. If you can, post your parameters. You said you tested for alkalinity and that your params were fine, so maybe your substrate or something else in the tank is buffering the water for you. That could also be a problem if it's leeching things into the water column.
Depending on your shrimp species and the params of your tap, you may want to start using that instead or mixing the RO down more. Your snail isn't going to like soft acid water, and neither will guppies (I realize not all RO is below neutral, but mine is). And as leeser said, most conditioners will remove chloramine + chlorine.
Yerdua
01-21-2009, 8:26 PM
This may sound weird, but is there anything that I could add to the RO so that it would work? + doesn't the water conditioner stuff cause the chloramine to break down into ammonia or something?
Yerdua
01-21-2009, 8:33 PM
My substrate is layered 2in of potting soil (bottom), 1in of sand + a layer of flourish (top).
Parameters are as follows:
NO3, NO2, Alk, +TH: 0; pH: 7.0
--I'm using a 5 way strip test...
paperdragon
01-21-2009, 8:37 PM
There's a few conditioners that break down the ammonia and nitrites as well as chlorine and chloramine... most of us here use Prime.
By the way, those test strips are not very reliable. I'd recommend a liquid test kit.
leeser28
01-21-2009, 8:37 PM
My substrate is layered 2in of potting soil (bottom), 1in of sand + a layer of flourish (top).
Parameters are as follows:
NO3, NO2, Alk, +TH: 0; pH: 7.0
--I'm using a 5 way strip test...
Is the test strip saying that it's positive for NO2? If so, that could be the reason that your fish get sick and die -- constant exposure to NO2 is stressful to their systems, including their immune system. I'm not sur what +TH is. A better test is the water test kits that actually give you the amounts (I've been very happy with the API freshwater testing kit).
Your Nitrates are at 0 and so is your alkalinity? You're probably ending up with pH fluctuations as well as a cycle then if those strips are accurate, which they usually aren't. I'm not sure if bettas would mind either one, but fancy guppies would probably fare poorly. What's +TH; total hardness?
There are buffering minerals available for those that don't want to mix down with tap water, although I'm unfamiliar with them. Call up your water company if you haven't yet to be sure that they're adding chloramines as well as chlorine, you could be saving yourself a lot of hassle. As I understand it though, chloramine is just ammonia and chlorine bound together; so yes, water dechlorinaters that only remove chlorine will still leave ammonia behind. The ones that remove chloramine, though, convert the ammonia into ammonium which is relatively harmless. I may not be up to date with that info though so will have to look around more to re-verify.
bluekrissyspike
01-21-2009, 8:49 PM
This may sound weird, but is there anything that I could add to the RO so that it would work? + doesn't the water conditioner stuff cause the chloramine to break down into ammonia or something?
if your tank is cycled it won't matter, especially being a planted tank
Canuck
01-21-2009, 8:49 PM
I think he is saying gH (total hardness) and alkalinity is 0. Fish need minerals, hardness in the water to survive. If everything is zero I'm surprised the shrimp are alive.
Fish Hobbiest
01-21-2009, 9:05 PM
could the potting soil have anything to do with your parameter fluctuations?
cam191919
01-21-2009, 9:06 PM
it sounds like the water is the only variable that could be a problem, maybe try a new source. what kind of shrimp, out of curiosity
A better test is the water test kits that actually give you the amounts (I've been very happy with the API freshwater testing kit).
Yep. Retest again with API. This would be my advice before more advice on adjusting the water parameters is poured on. Test strips are grossly inaccurate.
Most LFS will test your water for free as well, if you're unable to purchase a test kit at the moment. Of course make sure they're using a liquid kit or digital reader first.
colinsk
01-21-2009, 9:32 PM
Alk = 0 sounds like a problem waiting to happen. I don't have any experience making water from RO for fish. But, If I was taking a stab at it I would add baking soda until the KH was around 5 and CaCl until the GH was measurable (like 7 or something). The fish experts here can help you more. Tap water is much more likely to have a balance of ions.
Personally I would start doing 25% changes with tap water (with a water conditioner) weekly for a few months. This will make a slow change for your shrimp and will start to move you off of RO water.
RO water has no ability to dampen the pH swings caused by your plants going from photosynthesis to respiration every 12 hours.
The Zigman
01-21-2009, 9:33 PM
If you are testing positive for No2... Nitrite, then the tank is atill cycling.
Nitrite is as lethal for fish as ammonia.
the snails and shrimp in the tank probably havent put a big enough bioload on the tank to cycle it, ESPECIALLY if it is heavely planted... the plants will absorb nitrates...
I would reccommend getting a good test kit, (API Master kit is what we all would suggest) and retesting the water.
Does your tap water contain Chlorine?
Do you treat your Tap water?
I wouldnt worry too much about the RO thing, My 125 gal tank is about 85% RO..
Yerdua
01-21-2009, 10:10 PM
Thanks everyone! I'll get my water (tank + tap) tested and myself an API freshwater kit. See what the numbers are and start adding tap as needed... cool!
Yerdua
01-21-2009, 10:14 PM
oh, + cherry shrimp.
rocker92
01-21-2009, 10:38 PM
not trying to be mean but can you stop with the +++++ thing????!!!
thanks!!!
i would recommend an API test kit!!!
red_wall
01-21-2009, 10:50 PM
My substrate is layered 2in of potting soil (bottom), 1in of sand + a layer of flourish (top)....
What kind of potting soil?
Did you mineralize it?
There could be added fertilizers, or pieces of manure, even dead plants for added fertilizer. The manure and dead things rot in your water giving a LOT of ammonia off, not to mention the fertilizers are very harmful to your fish.
Have you been noticing any algae blooms?
Even if you haven't I would check the bag to see the ingredients.
KarlTh
01-22-2009, 5:39 AM
He's using pure RO. Of course KH and GH are zero. I'd just use dechlorinated tapwater.
Of course. How silly of us to guess that there could possibly be calcium carbonate in the substrate by say using white aragonite rather than something inert. Or that the tap water could be 8.0 and kill some species of shrimp. Maybe a rock that was leeching minerals into the water. No, of course not, they're using pure RO; that's the only thing that could be causing the problem and pure tap is the obviously the best solution, all variables aside.
KarlTh
01-22-2009, 7:10 AM
The GH and KH read zero and we've been told it's pure RO. It's not hard to join the dots. If the substrate were leaching calcium those two would not be zero.
Besides I never said that's why he's losing stock; I said that's why the KH and GH are zero.
In 99% of cases dechlorinated tapwater is the best way. We've already been told that the reason for not using it was an unfounded fear of chloramines.
They read zero on a test strip that may be inaccurate, waiting for the OP to post liquid test results. Just adding tap water without testing it first can result in more loss of stock in some cases; in their case likely not but it should still be tested with an accurate kit. Not much we can do until we know if the parameters were accurate and other questions are answered if they were not.