View Full Version : Regarding Botia Striata
FL CommunityFan
02-05-2009, 11:12 AM
I'm planning on getting some Botia Striata in a few months for my 75gallon. I'm planning toa dd them last to give my EBJD's time to grow and get a bit bigger so they don't get out competed for food or stressed out. The tank will have 1 l066 tiger pleco, l255spotted medusa, and l030peppermint for bottom dwellers.
What would be 'too many' in terms of a shoal for the botia striata. I know if kept in too small of a group they will get bored and mess with otehr fish or plants.. simply due to boredom. If kept in a large enough group, they'll stick to their own crowd for the most part and any boisterous activity wil be contained to their own group (ideally of course). The minimum I would consider is 6-8.. what would be the max # I would want to put in here?
If you go by the old rule of 1" of fish per gallon(((not really a true factor in here since we're talking about territorial space with the plecos on the footprint of the tank but even that shouldn't be a huge issue between the loaches swimming through a plecos spot - not in my experience at least))) I'm looking at 18" of EBJD (which will take at least 5-6 years to get to if they survive) 15"+/- on the plecos leaving 41" of loach room. 10 striata's would 'sound fine' as the max # but I'd love some input. From what I understand the striata often doesn't grow to it's claimed max size of 4" - anyone have experience regarding this with these guys?
thanks alot!
The maximum number you should add is ZERO. Your setup is not appropriate for housing botia striata, or any loach for that matter. Loaches should not be kept with large aggressive cichlids.
FL CommunityFan
02-05-2009, 11:30 AM
The maximum number you should add is ZERO. Your setup is not appropriate for housing botia striata, or any loach for that matter. Loaches should not be kept with large aggressive cichlids.
Thanks for your concern and care but I, and others, feel they are/will be fine. EBJD's are not overly aggressive in anyway, especially towards other tank mates - most aggression is conspecific with them. They are quite passive actually and should be kept with docile tank mates. Most of the EBJD owners I talk to keep loaches of some form in the tank to act as dithers for the EBJD's, generally yoyo's.
Once again, I do appreciate your concern, but I wouldn't attempt a setup that I didn't think would have a thriving community, and all of the evidence I have seen from fellow EBJD keepers shows a very happy tank.
I am not sure where you are getting your information from, or who the "others" are that agree with you, but EBJDs are not docile fish, nor are they passive community fish. While they have exhibited "less" aggression than there standard counterpart they are still a large, aggressive, territorial fish.
You say "most" EBJD owners keep them with loaches? That is an extremely overexagurated statement. Maybe some do, however that does not mean it in the best interest of all the fish in the tank. There are MANY cichlid owners who will turn a blind eye to what is going on in there tank just to appease themselves.
The thing that irritates me the most is the misuse of the words "dither" fish by cichlid keepers, to hide the awful practice of using "target" fish. They are not even remotely the same thing. Putting loaches in with an EBJD is using them as "target" fish. This means the loaches are fast enough and strong enough to withstand the abuse given to them by the larger, agressive cichlid. This is not a humain practice IMO and the loaches are forced to live a less than adequate life.
I don't know what evidence you have the two can live together in a "happy" tank, nor do I know how you are qualifying and quatifying it as "happy". I can tell you this, it is very unlikely that loaches in such a setup would exhibit typical loach behavior.
FL CommunityFan
02-05-2009, 12:42 PM
Once again, thanks for your concern and I respect your difference of opinion.
I am not sure where you are getting your information from, or who the "others" are that agree with you, but EBJDs are not docile fish, nor are they passive community fish. While they have exhibited "less" aggression than there standard counterpart they are still a large, aggressive, territorial fish.
large fish? Sure in 4-6 years they can get large if they manage to survive that long. Most keepers (((and when I say most keepers i am referring to most keepers that I have spoke with - sorry for the confusion there))) report their sizes to be around 8-9" on the normal sized full grown adult EBJD. Females 1-2" shorter than that. The only time they could be considered aggressive is when they are spawning,a t which point I agree with you they have the possibility of becoming a wrecking ball. My goal is to luckout with 2 females who don't mind each other. I'm ordering a good few of them and will be selling them off as they get older so I can hopefully end up with 2 females, as I have said.
You say "most" EBJD owners keep them with loaches? That is an extremely over exaggerated statement. Maybe some do, however that does not mean it in the best interest of all the fish in the tank. There are MANY cichlid owners who will turn a blind eye to what is going on in there tank just to appease themselves. Like I said above, when i say "most" I am specifically referring to persons who I have spoken with. There may be cichlid owners who turn a blind eye but I'd like to think I'm not one of them. If something doesn't work with the tank, I fix it.. whether that mean returning the fish to the LFS or finding a new home for them myself. I've had to do that with a few if my africans that just didn't get a long with other tank mates or weren't strong enough tog et along with other tanks mates. What's in the best interest of the fish in the tank in my opinion is food and living conditions which should equate to happiness. If the fish are enjoying themselves, feeding regularly, and not being abused or abusing others than I say that is a happy fish. Someone else may have a different opinion, but that's mine and what I base my tanks around.
The thing that irritates me the most is the misuse of the words "dither" fish by cichlid keepers, to hide the awful practice of using "target" fish. They are not even remotely the same thing. Putting loaches in with an EBJD is using them as "target" fish. This means the loaches are fast enough and strong enough to withstand the abuse given to them by the larger, aggressive cichlid. This is not a humane practice IMO and the loaches are forced to live a less than adequate life.This describes perfectly what I feel a dither fish is. (http://www.theaquarians.net/ArticlesandWallpapers/dither_fish.htm)
I'm not sure why you attack cichlid owners. It really seems like you have something against them? I'm sorry about that. Dither fish are NOT target fish. If some people ignorantly use the term dither fish to describe a target fish than that is their problem, not mine. A dither fish is a fish that calms the nerves of the other fish in the tank. By your definition, my plecos will be attacking the 'dither' fish (loaches) as well since I called them dithers. The JD is a shy fish in general and hides out a lot, the EBJD is no exception when it comes to that portion of the genes. Again, I do respect your feelings and opinion on the care and keeping of loaches but I simply do not agree. Again as I said, if something were to change in the tank as the tank ages, I would certainly address the issue and if that meant pulling the striata and finding them a new home then that's what I would have to do. Anything is possible... the striata could go after the plecos and the ebjd's for that matter nipping their fins to shreds. Again, quite unlikely but anything is a possibility.
I don't know what evidence you have the two can live together in a "happy" tank, nor do I know how you are qualifying and quantifying it as "happy". I can tell you this, it is very unlikely that loaches in such a setup would exhibit typical loach behavior.Typical loach behavior as seen in the wild? For that they'd have to be in a loach designed tank with pumps on one side of the tank creating a strong current for them to swim in and out of and up and down in,a s that is how many loaches, from what I have read live. I'd hazard to guess that most don't keep their fish in a tank like that. I'm not sure what you qualify or quantify as typical loach behavior but like I said before, if the fish is swimming around, eating well, playing with others from it's species, and just looking happy then that is all I am concerned about. I don't have the means nor funds at this time to do a river tank though when I get a larger house and can dedicate a fish room to my tanks, I'd love to get a 110g long and set one up as such.
Like I said, I appreciate your concern and do respect your difference of opinion. Thanks for your comments. I guess I'll go with 8 striata when the time comes, once the ebjd's are healthy enough to survive with other tank mates. That will be a few months from now though, however when I do I'll be sure to update this thread with whatever the turnout may be.
Thanks again.
Even at 8-9 inches an EBJD will be much larger and much more powerful than the 3-4 inch botias. You keep saying that EBJDs are not aggressive and this is simply untrue. They are very territorial fish, and they will agressively defend this territory. It is simply unfair to keep 3-4 inch botia loaches in a setup where they will be constantly invading the other fish's territory which will most certainly trigger an agressive response. Just because the loaches are fast enough to move out of the way of its response, or strong enough to take the response doesn't mean that it is appropriate to keep the loaches in such a manner. Now you are saying you plan to keep them with a group of EBJDs? That is just plain CRUEL!
You say you are not an owner who turns a blind eye. You say you are interested in the best interest of all the fish in your tank? That is obviosuly untrue. If you were you would listen to my advice instead of arguing with me. Buying fish, letting them get beat up and then taking them back to the store? That is NOT in the best interest of the fish.
That describes what you feel a "dither" fish is? So now words are ascribed meaning based on what you feel they should mean? I don't think that is how language works. The reason I say many cichlid owners misuse the term "dither" fish is because they do. I have nothing against cichlid owners, I myself am one. So lets go over "dither" fish. "Dither" fish are the fish that swim out in the open in large numbers when the water is safe from predators. Shy fish such as loaches tend to hide most of the time and when they see these "dither" fish they know it is safe to come out of there hiding spot because there are no predators around. That being said loaches are not even a "dither" fish to begin with! Loaches are very shy fish that spend most of the day light hiding. Second Jack Dempseys are predators! They are one of the fish that "dither" fish hide from to begin with. So when a cichlid owner says they need to use dither fish with there large aggressive cichlid they are completely misusing the term all around.
As far as keeping loaches, you have generalized keeping all loaches into one category and obviously have done little to no research on keeping them. That being said I am not even going to go into this topic. If you want more information on them read www.loaches.com (http://www.%3Cb%3Eloaches.com%3C/b%3E)/species-index/botia-striata
Again I would like to stress that a tank with one EBJD is not a suitable environment for these loaches and a tank with a group of them is just cruel IMO.
FL CommunityFan
02-05-2009, 2:17 PM
Once again I respect your opinion but simply disagree with what you think. I am not trying to argue at all, I just stated where I was coming from. You were hostile in your first response and continue to be hostile. I'm not going to get in to all of that, other than saying you assume a lot. Saying I have not done any research? I've been searching different loach profiles for the last 2 weeks, I was originally planning on getting yoyo loaches but saw some striata the other day which peaked my interest in them. I've read the tidbit on loaches.com regarding them a few times in the last few days since I initially saw the. That bit of info is minimal at best, providing no real info on the species. Everything I said about this fish in the wild and a river tank seems to even be backed up by that article, so thanks I guess. Just proves that my 'generalization' was right according to that information which is where I got that info from originally. They prefer a well aerated tank and are found in mountain streams, which generally speaking are quite quick moving(high current, high aeration).
I have done research. Lots in fact. I've been planning this tank for 2 months with out purchasing anything for it; it's just sat there with some danios and convicts keeping the cycle intact until I start buying actual fish from my stocking list. I was told I couldn't stock yoyo's and corys in my 29gallon and they get along famously together and have for the last 13 months.
Again, I respect your opinion and position on the subject, and I simply disagree with it based off of the research I have done and am still doing. if you feel I am trying to argue with you, I'm sorry I am not- you gave an opinion and I gave mine. Anything more than that is arguing I agree, so I think we should leave it at that. If no one else cares to comment on the stocking #'s of the striata. My question was how many to stock, not if this was a "right or not scenario for them to be placed in." That isn't a concern of mine, if it was I wouldn't be working with this stock list. now if I come across some more informative documentation on the striata than I could very well change my mind on their stocking if tank conditions would not be something they could thrive in. There is hardly any documentation out there though so I am working with the knowledge that I have available and from the experience of other fish keepers who have kept loaches in general in a similar setup.
toddnbecka
02-05-2009, 2:50 PM
IME cichlids tend to ignore non-cichlids in general. Territorial behavior is to be expected from spawning pairs, but given suitable cover and enough space I don't see any major issues with a couple cichlids sharing a 75 with a group of botia's. I've kept red-tail botias in a tank with 2 spawning pairs if Nic's w/out any issues between any of them. The switchblade spines under the botia's eyes seem to be a very effective defense against larger fish, cichlids included. As for how many to stock, I'd recommend a minimum of 5 of any social/schooling fish provided there's enough space.
I am not trying to come off as hostile. I am sorry if it seems that way. However I find the idea of keeping loaches in such a manner disturbing and cruel.
And I am sorry if the information on Loaches.com confused you, but Botia Striata are found in still and slow moving waters in mountain streams. That is not the same as the high directional current found in a river tank. The reason their tank needs high levels of aeration is due to the high temperatures they are kept at and the large amount of waste they produce. They do not require the high directional current of a river tank, nor would that be like their natural environment.
No one is saying you "can't" keep these fish together. You can literally do anything you want to. I am saying you "shouldn't" keep these fish together. The same way you "shouldn't" keep yoyo's with cories. Just because you "can" do something doesn't mean it is working for all the fish.
I am sorry you think that I am not on topic, but I answered your question. You shouldn't keep any loaches in that tank. I am not sure you are going to get a different answer from anyone else.
A 75 gallon tank is barely big enough for 2 EBJD's to begin with. I am sorry if you don't like the answer, but that doesn't mean it is wrong.
IME cichlids tend to ignore non-cichlids in general.
That is absolutely 100% NOT TRUE.
Territorial behavior is to be expected from spawning pairs, but given suitable cover and enough space I don't see any major issues with a couple cichlids sharing a 75 with a group of botia's. I've kept red-tail botias in a tank with 2 spawning pairs if Nic's w/out any issues between any of them. The switchblade spines under the botia's eyes seem to be a very effective defense against larger fish, cichlids included. As for how many to stock, I'd recommend a minimum of 5 of any social/schooling fish provided there's enough space.
If you have never kept JDs or EBJDs you cannot just generalize them as cichlids, nor should you be making recommendations about how to stock loaches with them. And justifying keeping them in hostile situation by saying they have a suitable defense mechanism doesn't make the situation desirable IMO.
plaalye
02-05-2009, 3:35 PM
Why not post your question to the loach experts at loachesonline and see what they have to say?
bluekrissyspike
02-05-2009, 5:43 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Dempsey_(fish)
Its common name refers to its aggressive nature and strong facial features, likened to that of the famous 1920s boxer Jack Dempsey (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Dempsey)
sounds like a freindly fish to me!!
personally i also beleive it would be cruel to keep this combination together.
fishorama
02-05-2009, 6:31 PM
I have seen EBJD & loaches kept together, ONE ebjd with loaches larger than them. I have striatas in a 75g & they are VERY slow growing, much slower than cichlids I've kept. I've never seen more than 1 or 2 3-4 inch striatas for sale at a time, they're usually quite small, 1-2 inch.
I suggest moving your yoyos to the 75g, they are very fast growers. After more than a year they should be 3-4 inches & (at least) close to outgrowing the 29. A 29g isn't really big enough for a group of 3-4 inch loaches of either species & a group of corys long term. Say 6 of each & that's an awful lot of bottom feeders. With your corys, a group of pangios (kuhlis) or maybe even sidthimunkis would be a better choice in that size tank.
That is absolutely 100% NOT TRUE.
Keyword: tend
He didn't imply all cichlids ignore non-cichlids altogether.
Okay, let's drop off the arguments. Leave it to the OP to decide. In the end, it is up to the OP to decide what his fish he wants to get, not us. We are here to help so let's not turn this into a debate table further (though it already has and I hate to close a thread because people keep debating further and degrade it).
Toddnbecka, I agree with you. It depends on the cichlids. Provided the EBJD does not spawn in the tank, then I do not see why the loaches cannot be kept there at all.
Keyword: tend
He didn't imply all cichlids ignore non-cichlids altogether.
I am not going to argue semantics Lupin. Large territorially aggressive cichlids do not "tend" to ignore fish that invade there territory.
The thing that irritates me the most is the misuse of the words "dither" fish by cichlid keepers, to hide the awful practice of using "target" fish. They are not even remotely the same thing. Putting loaches in with an EBJD is using them as "target" fish. This means the loaches are fast enough and strong enough to withstand the abuse given to them by the larger, agressive cichlid. This is not a humain practice IMO and the loaches are forced to live a less than adequate life.
The phrase target fish refers when used correctly to a fish introduced to a tank so as to encourage a pair of other fish to mate successfully - the intruder type fish being considered a threat so to speak and causing the other fish to spawn and protect their offspring. It doesn't mean a fish provided in the tank for the purpose of allowing e.g. a cichdlin to 'target' it.
Dither fish is quite different and refers when used correctly to generally smaller fish than the 'centre-piece' type fish the presence of which cause the centre-piece fish to feel more secure in the tank and to be more visible, not hiding behind decor etc.
FL CommunityFan
02-05-2009, 8:56 PM
thanks for the posts/info. I feel that once the tank is completed regarding plants, rock work and a few clay pots hidden behind the driftwood and under it to create mini caves, there will be ample room for all fish to claim an area for their own and be able to relax when they are tired.
I just want to know what would be the maximum # of these guys to go with with 3 4-5" plecos sharing the footprint as well. 6-8 is going to be the minimum I get. The LFS I frequent has them stocked pretty much year round and has already agreed to special order extras for me, with whatever loach I decide to go with in the end. I'd like to get more if the footprint allows for it, since I have read that they tend to mass huddle when they sleep. I'd like to have a 'fun/clown/silly' group in the tank so figure the bigger I can get that crowd the better, without pushing the boundaries of the footprint.
I nearly forgot, it's a standard 75gallon footprint. 48"x18"x20"
The phrase target fish refers when used correctly to a fish introduced to a tank so as to encourage a pair of other fish to mate successfully - the intruder type fish being considered a threat so to speak and causing the other fish to spawn and protect their offspring. It doesn't mean a fish provided in the tank for the purpose of allowing e.g. a cichdlin to 'target' it.
That is only one of the ways cichlid keepers use "target" fish. The origin of the term "target" fish is the idea that you could reduce the aggression in an African cichlid tank by introducing "target' fish to disperse their aggression. In both cases they are called "target" fish because they literally become the "target" of the other fish's aggression when it is protecting it's territory.
Dither fish is quite different and refers when used correctly to generally smaller fish than the 'centre-piece' type fish the presence of which cause the centre-piece fish to feel more secure in the tank and to be more visible, not hiding behind decor etc.
I 100% agree Coler. That being said territorially aggressive South American cichlids feel threatened when another fish invades their territory, not more secure.
I just want to know what would be the maximum # of these guys to go with with 3 4-5" plecos sharing the footprint as well.
What species are these? It would be a good idea to avoid the common plecos such as Pterygoplichthys gibbiceps as these will eventually reach 12 inches and over and will cramp the space of your tank otherwise bristlenose plecos, clown plecos, queen arabesque, small whiptails and most hypancistrus will be okay. The amount of bioload of your planned stock though will require increase filtration capacity and tank maintenance. If you're willing to do that, you're on right track.
6-8 is going to be the minimum I get. The LFS I frequent has them stocked pretty much year round and has already agreed to special order extras for me, with whatever loach I decide to go with in the end. I'd like to get more if the footprint allows for it, since I have read that they tend to mass huddle when they sleep. I'd like to have a 'fun/clown/silly' group in the tank so figure the bigger I can get that crowd the better, without pushing the boundaries of the footprint.
I nearly forgot, it's a standard 75gallon footprint. 48"x18"x20"
8-10 Botia striata should work just fine.:)
fishorama
02-06-2009, 10:24 PM
Well. I was going to say 6-8 zeebs...But "lots of loaches Lupin" says more...
FL CommunityFan
02-07-2009, 12:50 AM
What species are these? It would be a good idea to avoid the common plecos such as Pterygoplichthys gibbiceps as these will eventually reach 12 inches and over and will cramp the space of your tank otherwise bristlenose plecos, clown plecos, queen arabesque, small whiptails and most hypancistrus will be okay. The amount of bioload of your planned stock though will require increase filtration capacity and tank maintenance. If you're willing to do that, you're on right track.
They just came in today as a matter of fact. They are L-066 King Tiger (the whiter variant - absolutely stunning), L-255 Spotted Medusa, and L-030 Peppermint. Tank currently has an emp400 on it and am having an eheim 2026 pro II shipped out on Monday.
thanks for the infos.
msjinkzd
02-07-2009, 8:16 AM
Please post pics and let us know how it goes!
Lupin
02-08-2009, 12:50 AM
Very neat collection! Hope to see your pics.:)
FL CommunityFan
03-28-2009, 12:07 AM
Update on tank progression:
I ended up not doign the EBJD's due to price and health issues with the fish that I didn't want to get in to and put the time in to. I ended up getting some 4 carpintis escondido, 2 thor meeki F1 subin, 1 GT, 8 striata, and 4 plecos (1 white king tiger, 1 spotted medusa, 1 peppermint, 1 clown).
When I got the escondido they were about 1-1.5". This was about a month ago. The largest one is now pushing 3.5" and the other 3 are about 2.0-3.0". The GT is around 4-5". The meeki's are about 2.0". I plan on ending up with 1 escondido, 1 GT, 1 meeki for bigger fish and then my plecs and loaches.
The striata are just flat out awesome. They are pushing 3" themselves now as well.. they were about 2" when I got them. 8 of them right now and planning on going and picking up 4 more of them. The ones they got in 2 weeks ago are a little bigger than the guys I have now so that works out great. 5 of them seem to have formed their own clique and allow the other 3 to fill in a 6th slot 1 at a time every so often but never more than 6 to the group. They are growing pretty well too. 2 of them have some odd markings which I think are going to look really cool when they grow out some more. I want to get more but at $9.99 and already close to a full tank footprint I think I'm gonna hold off on going passed 12. They eay like pigs and the largest escondido seems to baby the whole bunch of them. The light is really bright where I feed at so they don't come right away to eat.. they generally wait for the current to push it over to them then they swarm like piranhas. if it takes too long, the escondido will take a few pellets or bloodworms and spit it out in to their pile so they can have some grub to snack on. It's simply hilarious.
I ended up getting the tank planted with a ton of anubias, ferns, and moss with some frogbit for cover. I also got a bunch of smaller driftwood pieces and positioned them quite nicely between the main driftwood pile and the rockpile. It's coming along nicely as far as that is concerned. I think the loaches dig the plants the most. The escondido will hide under anubias leaves underneath the eheim spraybar where the current is strongest. They'll hide their to get a break from the current when they are playing. The loaches on the other hand will sit right on top of the driftwood, in 2 single file lines as if they were getting ready to take off in a nascar race. The main driftwood pile is 3 quite large pieces and the top piece goes across longways giving them a bit of an airport strip to land and take-off from. Here there are some anubias as well and sometimes you can catch one parked on the leaf, handing on to the end of it with his barbs on his mouth as if he is playing and waiting for the right time to let go and let the spraybar push him around to the other side before coming back to do it again.
I'm definitely loving these guys and hoping they will all school around a bit more when I get the next 4. I thought 8 would be decent but I guess the 5 that are 'the clique' don't approve :(
I'll definitely update with quality pics in the enxt few weeks. Getting my first dslr in the next week or two and will be having a blast learning how to operate it.