View Full Version : new to salt water.
wastememphis
11-09-2003, 4:36 PM
Within the next month I think I'll finally be ready to start up a salt water tank. I have decided a 120 gallon (4' long, 2'wide) will be nice (with two over flows built in) for a tank. There isn't too much to choose from as for wet dry filters to put in the cabinet and I wasn't sure how to even run tubes from both over flows. So basically I was wondering what type of filter I should get and a protein skimmer. To make it more appealing in our kitchen I will probably start up coral and other plants in there but I don't know which fish would like that. I was leaning toward a predator tank ... like a Lion Fish, Moray Eel and some trigger? But the tank it self appears to be big enough for a small shark, is it a bad idea to put a shark in a tank full of coral? and what other fish would be compatible with a shark, only other sharks??? thanks for any help you can give, keep in mind that Im new and its ok to tell me i dont know what I'm talking about I'm just trying to learn about the tanks before I jump into anything.
neil.
Elliott Wright
11-09-2003, 4:46 PM
Hi,if i were you i would stay clear of large predators such as lions
triggers and eels they will munch on your corals and Inverts also
they are quite tricky to keep for a begginer like yourself.
Whatever you do though keep away from sharks they grow very big,eat corals and they are aggressive and hard to keep.
MonoSebaelover
11-09-2003, 5:36 PM
Just to correct Elliot, Lions, Triggers, and Eels are not hard to keep at all. They are actually some of the best beginner fish. Lions are reef safe but they produce too much waste which corals despise along with eating shrimps and crabs. Eels are reef safe except they will eat any kind of mobile invert such as Shrimps, Crabs, etc. They are also infamous for getting through the smallest hole in the lid and carpet surfing. Triggers can be a royal pain and are not adviced at all in reef tanks EXCEPT for those in the genus Xanthichtys. This includes the Blue Throat, Crosshatch, Red Tail among others. Agree with Elliot, Sharks should not be kept in aquariums and when that cute little baby Bamboo gets to 4 feet long (which is the smallest of all the sharks commonly available) it will be more than cramped in your tank. So basically to sum everything up is you can not do a predator and reef tank together. You must do one or the other. Corals are much harder to do as they require expensive lighting and adding lots of supplements. If you decide to go with predators a Lion Trigger combos never work so you will have to decide one or the other. As to filters I like to use Amircale wet dry's and if you ask one of your lfs they will easily explain to you how they work. Anyway, hope this helps and good luck.
wastememphis
11-09-2003, 10:49 PM
There isn't any preadtor that handles coral or reef tanks well? Is it because they usually live in deeper water where that isn't. And... what fish would go well with a reef tank. I'm not sure which direction I want to go towards (preadtor/reef)... at first I was actually going for an octopus but they appear to be more of a pest and difficult to please. I don't want to sound lame but I just want an impressive fish tank for once other than just the usual fresh waters, though some are nice they aren't impressive, and if I'm going to put money into the salt water I'm going to take care of it and I'm just sick of everybody saying "beginners shouldn't get this, you should have this and then you can get this" and it just seems like it's a VIDEO GAME WHERE YOU NEED TO DO SOMETHING TO GO TO THE NEXT LEVEL OR SOMETHING. I don't see why I would have to have a damsle fish at all when it's not a fish I plan on having or that isn't compatable with fish I plan on getting in a tank. Everybody just tells me "you shouldn't get a lion fish or a reef tank, first you need to get a damsel fish and see how that goes" or "get a damsel then you can get an octopus (or whatever i ask them about) though that will just eat the fish you started to like and paid money to keep and buy" I don't know... can someone give me reasons to go for this stuff?
neil.
MonoSebaelover
11-09-2003, 11:08 PM
No one has said anything on this site about Damsels or requiring you to do something so don't jump on us. Many of us have practical experience and we are telling you what works and what doesn't based on EXPERIENCE, we have nothing to gain on whatever decision you make unlike a fish store does. Like I said before pretty much NO predator works in a reef tank because they produce way too much ammonia which causes nitrite then high Nitrate levels. Corals prefer 0 nitrate, and this is pretty hard to obtain with predators and their large waste output. Many people say you have to have Damsels because it WAS long thought that was the only way to cycle because they can handle the ammonia and nitrite that a cycle produces. THIS THEORY OF THINKING IS LONG OUT OF DATE!!!!! All you need nowadays is some live rock and some fresh cocktail shrimp at your grocery store. Some good reef safe fish are Pygmy Angels, Basslets, Gobies, Blennies, Cardinals, Tangs among many others. You should decide what reef safe fish or what predator you want and shape your tank around that. Anyway, I hope this helps and be careful on your tone. We can only give advice we can't make you put certain fish in your tank, that is for you to decide just like it is my decision to decide what to put in my tanks. Hope this helps.
wastememphis
11-09-2003, 11:30 PM
You can't read tone. I was just saying that every time I ask someone a question theres two opinons, like how you said lion fish and triggers are easy to care for and are a fine start the person before you said they aren't for "beginners" and I don't know who to believe whenever I bring up a topic or read a topic it seems to go real quick from the question to who knows more about fish and stuff. I totally appreciate everything that you posted. That's why I came here I said I didn't know which I wanted, thats why I don't have one already I'm trying to learn about the fish and what goes togeather and I'm not a fan of how expensive it could be to start up a reef tank. But if thats what I decide to go for I'm not going to take the task lightly. I just don't know what type of fish to get I really think Lion fish are beautiful and I know about them I just don't know about different species of Lion Fish???? The only ones I've seen availiable at my LFS were the voiltare and a dwarf lion fish... ??? sorry I offended you.
neil.
Gealcath
11-10-2003, 3:10 AM
Fuzzy Dwarf Lionfish get to a size of around 8", which isnt too bad as long as you dont put anything in there that will fit in thier mouth and keep feeding to a minimum (if you have it in a reef set up). Volitan Lion fish reach an average sive of 14" in an aquarium, and vary rarily they can reach up to 24", but most stay within 14"
Both of them are not all that aggressive but will eat anything that can fit in their mouth if they feel like it.
Lion fish can be kept in a reef tank, with a few minor changes.
1.) Your cleanup crew will be non-existant, thus you will need to be meticulous in water changes and taking the time to turkey baster up any excess waste in the tank.
2.) You'll need a good skimmer to remove all the waste a lion is going to produce.
3.) Corals will not be a problem as lions don't go for sessile inverts, only mobile.
4.) Other reef safe fish are going to be very limited for you as a lion can and will eat anything it can fit into its cavernous mouth. Perhaps a single lion, either an Antenatta or a Radiatta, and a single Tang? Would be interesting to see these fish in and around a reef. For a bit of background, a Mandarin fish adds some interst to the tank, and the lion won't bother it cuz it is poisonous.
Also, to correct something Mono mentioned.
"All you need nowadays is some live rock and some fresh cocktail shrimp at your grocery store."
I actually disagree with that cuz all you really need is the liverock. Basically, when you put the liverock in the tank, you are transplanting the state of "cycled" into your tank. Your tank will be pretty much ready to stock once the liverock is in and any die off is taken care of. The shrimp can be skipped. This does NOT apply to a situation that involves baserock. If you use any baserock, you'll need to:
1.) setup the tank.
2.) place the baserock in the tank.
3.) cycle with shrimp
4.) add the premium liverock after the cycle is complete
5.) allow the liverock to have its mini-cycle from the die off
6.) add fish and enjoy
NEVER add liverock to a tank that has/will have high ammonia. Any macro life on the rock will be burned to a crisp and the premium you paid to get that nice rock will be wasted money.
Originally posted by wastememphis
thanks for any help you can give, keep in mind that Im new and its ok to tell me i dont know what I'm talking about I'm just trying to learn about the tanks before I jump into anything.
You mentioned video games and going to a new level. Well, that is exactly what you need right now. Keeping a saltwater tank is very easy, but keeping a reef tank is not. Reef tanks are delicate recreations of an ecosystem that require pristine, stable and perfect conditions. Any deviation from that and they can crash VERY quickly. You need to be able to find the yellow key and collect 100 gold stars before you attempt a reef because most corals you find in a store were not captive born. They were ripped brutally from their perfect conditions on the reef, put in a plastic bag and shipped far too long in their own waste to a store near you. You, the end user, owe them the respect of being FULLY prepared to take care of them. Corals are not plants. They are living creatures that, once gone, will not be there for us. Demand from users that get a coral, let it die, get a new coral, let that one die, get a new coral, let that one die, etc... are a tremendous drain on the reefs. I'm not saying that you will go that route, you had the brains to come find a place like this and ask first, but that is how it goes a lot of times. I usta spend a lot of time at my LFS, was in sometimes 5 times a week, and this one guy usta come in all the time. Everytime I saw him for like a month, he was getting a new coral. I finally spoke to him and I said "man, you must have a beautiful reef tank by now, got any pictures of it?" Know what he said? "No, they all keep dying. I'm eventually going to find one that can survive my tank!" Needless to say, I was less than pleased to find this sort of ignorance that close to home. I told him where to find the info he needed and last time I saw him, probably a year ago, he was in the process of building a Halide hood for his tank. He hadn't killed another coral since he started doing some research on em.
Ok, so what's my point? You say you are a beginner, and that is obvious to us. Now, take the advice you've been given here and grow from it. Don't be a rebel and think you can make it work all by yourself, cuz man, you can't. You need the info that people here can give you if you want to get it right. A lot of us have been there an done that, and we know what we are talking about. Do yourself a favor and act like one of my favorite inverts.. Be a sponge, soak up all the info you can and approach your reef with respect. Make responsible decisions about the lives you are risking. You'll be far better off in the long run for it.
Oh and forget the shark idea. Every newbie starts off with the idea "oooooh, I wanna get a shark!" or "oooooh, I wanna get an octopus!" and it never works out. You kill a shark and then another one has to be caught to take its place in the LFS tank. Sharks and Octopi can be kept, but it takes a truly advanced keeper to make them thrive. Yer not there yet, in fact hardly anyone on this board is there yet. Oriongirl (Onion) has kept Octopi before and she can attest to the difficulty involved. Baby steps my friend, baby steps.
"Nothing good ever happens fast in a reef tank" remember that, or you'll hear it again when you post "Why are all my corals closed and brown?".. I'll be there reminding you of this post ;)
MonoSebaelover
11-10-2003, 8:41 AM
Okay, the reasons I have for not putting a Lion in a reef is because they produce so much waste, plus lions are naturally occuring semi-deep water fish. Once you put that naturally semi-deep water fish in a coral tank that contains Power Compacts or Halides that lion will not come out except for at night time. They don't like bright lights so why have a fish that will hide all the time in one environment while if you put that same fish in a standard flourescent tank it would be out most of the time? Thats just my thing though. I have also found that with lack of tankmates Tangs hide all the time (my mom has a Blue Hippo and Yellow in her tank and they hide constantly) while my tanks are more FOWLR oriented and my tangs are out constantly do to more tankmates. So IMO if you went with the Lion and Tang it would be a pretty boring tank but that is again just my opinion. I think if you are going to invest the money to do a reef you might as well spend the money on some naturally occuring reef fish that glow in their natural habitat (like a Black Cap Basslet, Pygmy Angels, Tangs, etc). But at the end of the day the choice is yours and this is just what I would do. And with the cocktail and live rock thing, for every question that is asked in this hobby you can get 5 different responses from 5 different people so here is an example. Anyway, hope this helps.
I have a buddy that had (he had to break his tank down) a Radiatta lion in a tank with halide lighting. The lion didn't hide at all. Was active everytime I was over there. Course, that was usually to see him feed the fish when we'd go by his house on our lunch break, so the lion was probably anxious to eat. I had a Yellow Tang in my tank and he was NEVER in hiding. That fish as anything but shy..
The shrimp thing, yer right, everyone has their own opinions on how to do things. But if you think about it, you'll see that I'm right. The buddy that I mentioned had to break his tank down cuz he was getting a divorce and I was the lucky recipient of his live rock. We put the rock in my tank and imediately added some of his fish to it. No spike, no nothing. My tank was instantly ready to support the fish. Same would go for anyone's tank with a 100% liverock setup. I know this works and I'd do it again without hesitation..
wastememphis
11-10-2003, 1:28 PM
Thanks guys... I've decided that a reef tank with a lion fish was the set up I'd eventually shoot for because I was told it was one of the only predator fish that would be alright in a reef setting. I know about the nitrate waste from predators but was talking to the manager of my LFS today for a few hours and he was showing me the lighting I would need, I don't think I will go for the high end hard coral but I really like the polyps and the mushrooms. Um... I’m not sure how you would use glue to keep the rocks together since I've never done this before but he mentioned how a moray eel would be creeping around through the live rock and might end up knocking things around also that a trigger fish is very curious and might get stung and would bite back and possibly cause an infection to whatever it went against. He told me that it isn't very common for someone to ask about a predator reef tank though but he said it might be a beautiful set up if you had "three maybe even four different species of lion fish in your tank". I've been going to talk to him for the last month but just recently about the animals I was just asking him which tank I could fit and have been trying to save some money so I wouldn't have to worry about a budget. But I mean I just realized the tank I'm going to order is 48" long 28" wide and i think 24" tall its a 120 gallon... there’s a lot of room in there! How many weeks should I wait after i just have a live rock and water in the tank before I introduce a lion fish in to it... he told me after about 6 weeks with a fish in there I can put some starter soft coral in the tank but I just want to get the timing right. I still don't know much about protein skimmers... and are oscillating heads good for a tank to push the water from the wet/dry filter back up into your tank???
neil.
THANKS EVERYBODY!
MonoSebaelover
11-10-2003, 3:33 PM
Although polyps and shrooms are hardy I definitely would not do several species of lion. If you did that you would have to do water changes twice a week practically to keep water quality in check. As long as you stack the rock work well then there will be no need for glueing the rocks together. I have a 3ft Zebra moray which is one of the thicker clumsier morays and I have never glued any of the rocks. BTW, a Trigg won't cause an infection a trigg will eat the coral. I have always found it good to wait awhile on the corals so anyway, thats just me. Anyway, hope this helps.
Gealcath
11-10-2003, 4:18 PM
Iw ouldnt trust it when LFS employees tell youa fish or invert is reef safe. Alot of LFS will tell you Chocolate chip seastars are reef safe, when in reality it will strip your reef clean and eat any invert smaller then it.
No, mixing lions is not a good thing. Your LFS employee is trying to make a big sale, and yer the poor sucker buying it. Do the reef, solfties and polyps, perhaps even do a larger clown with an amemone, like a Maroon and a Long Tentacle.
wastememphis
11-10-2003, 8:50 PM
what about having the same types of lion fish in the same tank? not mixing different ones. how long should i wait to put reefs in... and can someone explain protien skimmers to me from their experience and which i would need for a 120 gallon tank... and about an occilating pump to bring the water back into the tank? thanks guys.
neil.
For your sump questions, head on over to the DIY forum. Slipknottin is our resident plumbing expert, he can fix ya right up =)
I honestly can't answer your question about housing multiple lions of the same species together, I've never seen it done or read about it. There is probably a good reason I've never seen it, (read: bad idea!) but I can't say for sure.
Oh and skimmers... The process is fairly simple really - water is put through an impeller that "chops" the water up, making foam like you see on a river with rapids.. That foam attracts the proteins in the water and they rise to the surface where the protein rich foam is collected in a cup.
As for brand... The only brand of skimmer I'll ever buy is AquaC. I have the Remora on my 55 and I adore it.
MonoSebaelover
11-11-2003, 7:56 AM
One can mix different types of lions together like the Dwarf Zebra, Fuzzy, Fu Manchu and Radiata say. Or you can have a tank with a few Volitans and Russels. Lions occur in the wild singly but they will pack hunt. They are not aggressive to their own kind it is just the amount of waste that they produce is not something a lot of people want to deal with so they only have one lion per tank. I used to have a Fu Manchu and a Dwarf Zebra together and they did great. Just so you know. But again it is not smart to put more than one lion in you reef tank. If you do you might as well not go with corals cause the only thing you will be able to keep alive are mushrooms. So it is either one lion in a predator tank or a couple of lions in a predator (FOWLR) tank. Anyway, hope this helps.
Mono, what kind of mixture would you suggest for his tank size? Ignoring the waste issues. Wouldn't a "pride" of lions require some serious real-estate? Even Dwarf Zebras get 6-8". To me, more than a couple of those guys in a 55 or so would be pushing it. Beautiful, but overstocked. I'm not knocking the idea, heck I think a reef tank with a lion zooming around would be BEAUTIFUL as well as a tank with a few lions conering some ghost shrimp. I love to watch em hunt =) I just wanna know what is reasonably possible.
This dicussion goes well with the plans I currently have for my 55. I want to rearrange things so that I can put a lion in there. I'm leaning towards an Antenatta right now.
wastememphis
11-11-2003, 10:33 AM
The guy at my LFS was a really nice guy he said that fu man chue (sp) and the dwarf zebra lion fish and other fish like MonoSebaelover mentioned. I think there would be pleanty of room to put two... MAYBE three lion fish as long as they wouldn't have a problem with eachother I was thinking two voilitare and a dwarf... again... its a 120 gallon tank 4feet long 2feet wide... and I can add the reefs due to space avaiable when my fish are larger... just wondering about mixing them becuase I honestly want a preadtor tank but since it will be the main tank in my house everybody sugests to just forget about the predator and make it a reef tank for people to enjoy as a focal point... and a lion fish (when i was told possible to put in a reef tank) was the best thing anyone could ever say... and if I can't have more than one lion fish... could i glue my rocks (if needed) and have a moray eel... I've only seen a snowflake at my LFS could anyone elaborate on their habits and how they act in a tank set up with reefs... thanks.
neil.
tricksterpup
11-11-2003, 12:56 PM
Neil,
It looks like you made up your mind on the predator reef tank. But besides going to this website or going to your LFS have you actually done any research on the issue. Have you picked up any books on the types of fish you want and any on reef tanks?
Well, you are getting a very nice fish tank, I myself would love to do a reef in a tank this size but you must remember that you will need roughly 200 pounds of Live rock for this tank. (1.5-2 pounds per gallon) So that is gonna be the biggest cost you will have going for the tank, next to the lights and tank itself.
But this is a typical beginer response, wanting a predator tank. But as Mono and corax has made mentioned, alot of issues with a tank like this. Small lions will also get big. Now if you go the moray route, take it from my experience, i have lost 2 eels (at various times) through climbing out of the tank and duing the carpet crawl. If you think your tank is sealed, check again, they will find a way out. But I am like Corax right now, I have a 75 gallon tank that my girlfriend wants me to turn it into a reef tank, I have all of the equipment on hand, lights, skimmer, filter but I would like to set it up as a Lion fish tank. Its a tough choice, but I am from the school its either or. I had a friend who had a reef tank and did all the cool stuff you are wanting and boy, did they cause problems. Eels, climbing out or eaten by his lion, fu manchu lion fish eating other fish (10 total), Octopus eating all of his snails and hermit crabs. I on the other hand did the reef tank (with compatable fish only) and had an incredible tank. My friend was more envious of my purple rocks and huge corals. The only problem I had was when I moved, the reef crashed. I removed all the live rock and sold it to a LFS (in exchange for the 75 gallon plexiglass tank and other items.).
So my recommendation is before you buy items for your tank, first buy some books. I know alot of people here could recommend some really nice ones.
The Reef Tank Owner's Manual: A Practical Guide to Establishing and Maintaining a Coral Reef Aquarium
by John H. Tullock
Reef Tank Owner's Manual by John H. Tullock
Your First Marine Aquarium: Everything About Setting Up a Marine Aquarium, Aquarium Conditions and Maintenence, and Selecting Fish and Invertebrates (Barron's Complete Pet Owner's Manuals) by John H. Tullock
I am a big fan of this book,
The Reef Aquarium: A Comprehensive Guide to the Identification and Care of Tropical Marine Invertebrates (Volume 1) by J. Charles Delbeek, Julian Sprung, Charles Delbeek, Martin A., Jr. Moe, Peter Wilkens
The Reef Aquarium: A Comprehensive Guide to the Identification and Care of Tropical Marine Invertebrates (Vol 2)
by Julian Sprung, J. Charles Delbeek
whew.. that is a list. I would suggest start reading for your information and if you have any questions, give us a hollar.
jim
wastememphis
11-11-2003, 8:10 PM
Ok... if i started the tank, I would only have the lion fish and the reef. I'm aware that a lion fish would eat everything else so, i wouldn't have put anything else with them in the reef tank. I have read one of those books. I own two different ones on the subject but its just the fish. Um... is that a pretty good rule though for that size of a tank to NEED 200lbs of live rock? That would be as much as buying a whole new tank with everything (filter, heater, stand, lights, skimmer)... just wondering.
neil.
Actually, if you skim HEAVILY (buy a skimmer rated for well above your tank size) and stock lightly (2 lions, tops) then you don't need THAT much LR. 1lb/gallon would suffice probably.Keep in mind you can always go the baserock route. Much cheaper, but it takes longer to look nice.
So ya know... Another fish you could consider for your predatory reef would be a larger Hawkfish. Very interesting critters and very able to avoid a lion fish. Get one of the bigger species and it should do fine.