Nitrate Issue with Fishless Cycle?

[notfastenuf]

55g, original top fin dual charcoal filter and Aqua Clear 70, two smaller plants and it's been setup for about two weeks. Been dosing ammonia as well. Finally got the API Freshwater Master test kit today. The temp has been cranked to 82 and algae is starting to form.

pH = 8
NH3 = 6ppm
No2 = 1ppm
No3 = 0ppm

I did a 10% change a few days ago and now I suppose I need some guidance as to what to do. I didn't have any media to start this and I'm sure the plants are consuming the nitrates... that's the only thing I can think of.

:help:

[jpappy789]

You technically shouldn't be changing water unless you overdose heavily on ammonia. Removing ammonia only increases the need for dosing sooner. Shoot for 5 ppm max. There's a sort of gray area between how much helps move the cycle along and how much can actually hurt the bacteria. When in doubt, dose less. Bacteria will grow whenever there is an excess of food, so there's no difference between 2 ppm and 5 ppm in terms of colony growth.

Plants won't consume nitrate when they can use ammonia and nitrite much easier. My guess is that you don't have the nitrite converting bacteria yet, and given your time frame you shouldn't. Cycling with this method should take you 6-8 weeks. Let the cycle progress and be patient. You can always try to add some bacteria via established media.

[notfastenuf]

You technically shouldn't be changing water unless you overdose heavily on ammonia. Removing ammonia only increases the need for dosing sooner. Shoot for 5 ppm max. There's a sort of gray area between how much helps move the cycle along and how much can actually hurt the bacteria. When in doubt, dose less. Bacteria will grow whenever there is an excess of food, so there's no difference between 2 ppm and 5 ppm in terms of colony growth.

Plants won't consume nitrate when they can use ammonia and nitrite much easier. My guess is that you don't have the nitrite converting bacteria yet, and given your time frame you shouldn't. Cycling with this method should take you 6-8 weeks. Let the cycle progress and be patient. You can always try to add some bacteria via established media.

Cool. Understood. I have no problems being patient with this, just want to make sure something is happening. The wife keeps wondering when the fish are gonna show up.

[jpappy789]

Nitrites are the first step, so it's definitely going forward.

[notfastenuf]

Nitrites are the first step, so it's definitely going forward.

Should I be using Prime?

[Star_Rider]

Should I be using Prime?


for???
any water change... yes
you don't need it otherwise in a fishless cycle

[notfastenuf]

for???
any water change... yes
you don't need it otherwise in a fishless cycle

got it. One of the many LFS suggestions.

[6.5x55]

you don't need it otherwise in a fishless cycle

You do, otherwise the chlorine will hinder bacterial developement.

[steveywinet]

jpappy786 has it pegged. My experience was that nitrites would get somewhere between 5-10 ppm before nitrates began to show. The last tank I cycled took about 35 days.

[jpappy789]

for???
any water change... yes
you don't need it otherwise in a fishless cycle

:iagree:

[notfastenuf]

UPDATE

Date, pH, NH3, NO2, NO3
2/20/09, 8, 6.0ppm, 1.0ppm, 0ppm
2/27/09, 8, 1.0ppm, 5.0ppm, 7ppm
3/1/09, 7.4, .25 ppm, 5.0ppm, 5ppm
3/6/09, 6.4, 2.0ppm, .25ppm, 7.5ppm

Can someone help diagnose what's going on here? Tank was started on 2/12 initially.

[jpappy789]

Don't worry about the pH. Biological activity within the tank will eat away at the buffer, lowering it naturally.

Did you add ammonia between 3/1 and now?

You have nitrates so you are moving forward still.

[notfastenuf]

Don't worry about the pH. Biological activity within the tank will eat away at the buffer, lowering it naturally.

Did you add ammonia between 3/1 and now?

You have nitrates so you are moving forward still.

Yup, doing a tad of ammonia almost daily now (tad as in a couple drops).

What should pH normally be at?

[notfastenuf]

This morning's reading was odd... nitrate spike. wtf...
ph, nh3, n02, n03
6, 1.5ppm, 0ppm, 20ppm

[notfastenuf]

3/11/09 pm 6.4 / 3.0ppm / 0ppm / 10ppm
3/13/09 pm 6.4 / 4.0ppm / 0ppm / 8ppm
3/14/09 am 6.2 / 3.0ppm / 0ppm / 40ppm
3/14/09 pm 6.2 / 5.0ppm / 0ppm / 50ppm
3/15/09 pm 6.0 / 5.0ppm / 0ppm / 50ppm
3/16/09 pm 7.2 / 2.5ppm / 0ppm / 50ppm
3/17/09 pm 7.2 / 2.0ppm / 0ppm / 60ppm
3/19/09 pm 6.6 / 2.0ppm / 0ppm / 20ppm

Good grief - why won't my ammonia drop off. Plants are doing great and the tiny snail in there seems to be doing great. I haven't added ammonia in a week now... should I restart or discontinue?

[KarlTh]

Actually, pH is an issue; as it approaches 6 the bacteria are inhibited significantly. I'd add some bicarb to bring KH up and raise pH to 7+

[notfastenuf]

Actually, pH is an issue; as it approaches 6 the bacteria are inhibited significantly. I'd add some bicarb to bring KH up and raise pH to 7+

is that something I'm going to have to normally do? and why would it keep dropping? I'm concerned about the pH and Nitrates...


Date / ph / Ammonia / Nitrite / Nitrate
3/20/09 am / 6.8 / 4.0ppm / 0ppm / 40ppm
3/20/09 pm / 6.6 / 4.0ppm / .15ppm / 40ppm
3/21/09 pm / 6.8 / 3.0ppm / 0ppm / 60ppm
3/22/09 pm / 6.6 / 2.0ppm / .5ppm / 60ppm
3/25/09 am / 6.8 / 1.0ppm / 0ppm / 30ppm
3/26/09 pm / 6.4 / 0.5ppm / 0ppm / 40ppm

I haven't added any ammonia since 3/20... do I need to keep it higher or let it drop off? I'm glad working on my Cobra isn't this hard.

[colinsk]

Your normal water changes should be enough to keep the pH up. You likely have water with very little carbonates. The extra protons created in the reduction of ammonia to nitrate are converting your CO3 (carbonate) to CO2. I'll spare you the pathways (and me from looking them up).

The good news is your tank is almost cycled. When you are adding ammonia every day and the readings are 0 ammonia and 0 nitrites by the next day then do a big water change (90%) and you are ready for fish. Then change about 20 to 30 percent every week and you should do fine.

[notfastenuf]

Your normal water changes should be enough to keep the pH up. You likely have water with very little carbonates. The extra protons created in the reduction of ammonia to nitrate are converting your CO3 (carbonate) to CO2. I'll spare you the pathways (and me from looking them up).

Ok, maybe that's the problem. I never initiated water changes as stated above on the second post. Maybe there was just a misunderstanding on my part (likely).

[colinsk]

You don't need to change water till you get down to 6.2pH or you start adding fish. With harder water you can go all the way through a fishless cycle with no water changes.

[KarlTh]

is that something I'm going to have to normally do? and why would it keep dropping? I'm concerned about the pH and Nitrates...


Date / ph / Ammonia / Nitrite / Nitrate
3/20/09 am / 6.8 / 4.0ppm / 0ppm / 40ppm
3/20/09 pm / 6.6 / 4.0ppm / .15ppm / 40ppm
3/21/09 pm / 6.8 / 3.0ppm / 0ppm / 60ppm
3/22/09 pm / 6.6 / 2.0ppm / .5ppm / 60ppm
3/25/09 am / 6.8 / 1.0ppm / 0ppm / 30ppm
3/26/09 pm / 6.4 / 0.5ppm / 0ppm / 40ppm

I haven't added any ammonia since 3/20... do I need to keep it higher or let it drop off? I'm glad working on my Cobra isn't this hard.

Likely your KH is very low. You need a test kit for this.

[7itanium]

I forsee a nitrite spike in your future... followed by a huge drop in all levels and a jump in nitrate

at that point do a 50% water change.. and add fish!

[Star_Rider]

is that something I'm going to have to normally do? and why would it keep dropping? I'm concerned about the pH and Nitrates...


Date / ph / Ammonia / Nitrite / Nitrate
3/20/09 am / 6.8 / 4.0ppm / 0ppm / 40ppm
3/20/09 pm / 6.6 / 4.0ppm / .15ppm / 40ppm
3/21/09 pm / 6.8 / 3.0ppm / 0ppm / 60ppm
3/22/09 pm / 6.6 / 2.0ppm / .5ppm / 60ppm
3/25/09 am / 6.8 / 1.0ppm / 0ppm / 30ppm
3/26/09 pm / 6.4 / 0.5ppm / 0ppm / 40ppm

I haven't added any ammonia since 3/20... do I need to keep it higher or let it drop off? I'm glad working on my Cobra isn't this hard.


I agree with Karl test KH.
your pH is starting to get to low levels enough it could hinder bacteria growth

normally you would be adding ammonia daily to feed bacteria.

[notfastenuf]

I forsee a nitrite spike in your future... followed by a huge drop in all levels and a jump in nitrate

at that point do a 50% water change.. and add fish!

it's up last night a ton. Nice.