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Lupin
02-26-2009, 12:40 AM
Does anyone have any references towards the importance of copper proteinate as one of the added ingredients in most shrimp and snail foods? I remember one topic towards copper proteinate where one of us got an email response from Hikari claiming copper is vital for the shrimps' health. Small concentrations won't normally hurt the inverts especially as it is chelated but I still can't pinpoint the truth behind the reason of adding copper in their foods. I asked Ken of Kensfish this morning for queries about the invertebrate foods and his response that no copper will be added in the foods for inverts had me thinking why would Hikari and a few other companies would add copper in their recipe if copper may not be important at all. I've been trying to dig around the internet but all the searches yielded copper meds being fatal to inverts, etc.


Edit: Found one. Guess I can see it now. Will leave this posted in case anyone may have some important points to share.
http://www.theaquariumwiki.com/Copper


Copper (Cu) is an essential nutrient to all higher plants and animals. In animals, it is found primarily in the bloodstream, as a cofactor in various enzymes, and in copper-based pigments. In sufficient amounts, copper can be poisonous or even fatal to all organisms.
The level of free Copper in water that can kill varies enormously across species. Small invertebrates (http://www.theaquariumwiki.com/Invertebrates) like Shrimps or snails only require a tiny amount.

pik01
02-26-2009, 1:15 AM
Scooby Dooby Doo...

thread from The Planted Tank - Hikari 'Shrimp Cuisine' contains Copper, why? (http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/shrimp-other-invertebrates/81420-hikari-shrimp-cuisine-contains-copper-why.html)

from the thread:


To be a stickler for terminology, shrimp don't have blood or a closed circulatory system as in vertebrates; instead, a fluid called hemolymph sloshes about within the body cavity. The oxygen-carrying molecule in their hemolymph is hemocyanin, a respiratory protein which binds oxygen using two copper atoms.

According to this paper (http://www.springerlink.com/content/h11331216h25m225/), decapod crustaceans (like shrimp) need around 31.3 to 38.1 μg (1 μg = 1/1,000,000 of a gram) of copper per gram of body mass "to meet the requirements of both copper-associated enzymes and the copper bearing respiratory pigment haemocyanin".

The line between need and toxicity can be fine (source (http://www.scialert.net/xml/biotech/2008/153-156-full.xml)), but copper is an essential trace metal required for copper-dependent enzymes in energy production, pigmentation, and so on.

We should distinguish this dietary requirement from the effects of the cupric ion (Cu+2). This is copper's major toxic species -- doing much damage to crustacean gills by inhibiting osmoregulation -- and results when copper sulfate medications are added to water (source (http://books.google.com/books?id=Sz4RYEyH5DsC&pg=PA147&lpg=PA147&dq=copper+toxicity+shrimp&source=web&ots=n0R9XaBsHE&sig=B8BYWiuOY8WRtP1lOaITulM-HCA&hl=en&ei=992HSZXEOoGCtwfL9OiaBw&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=10&ct=result#PPA147,M1)).

and then the email response from Hikari:


Yes. Seems to be true. I actually emailed Hikari yesterday and this their reply to me today:

"Here is a more in depth response from our research staff.

Yes, too much copper in the diet will kill the shrimp. But, shrimp need a very small amount of copper in their food for good health.

Not like us(humans), animals or fish, most shrimp use copper to deliver oxygen
inside of their body. For example, we (humans) have red blood cells which
contain hemoglobin. Hemoglobin contains iron metal (Fe), and this iron
actually absorbs oxygen at large and delivers this oxygen to every part of
body and organs.

However, in the case of Shrimp, they have Hemocyanin in their blood cells, with
copper metal. They use copper to deliver oxygen to their vital organs and circulatory system.
That is why their blood is clear or green color rather than red color like ours (humans).

We hope this additional information helps!"
End of email.

Lupin
02-26-2009, 1:19 AM
Thanks for sharing, Pik! Now we know why there is no reason to worry about copper proteinate being one of the ingredients in some commercial foods.:)

pik01
02-26-2009, 1:22 AM
hehe, all I did was round up some answers. I still have concerns over just how much copper proteinate is in these foods. Hikari is not the only brand that adds copper proteinate and there's no telling how much is in ANY of the brands since it's such a trace amount. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if the shrimp got enough trace copper from tap water, fertilizers, or plant substrates.

edit: "decapod crustaceans (like shrimp) need around 31.3 to 38.1 μg (1 μg = 1/1,000,000 of a gram) of copper per gram of body mass." Uh, how many grams does an average dwarf shrimp weigh? Curse me and my standard-oriented brain, I'm terrible at estimating metric units.

further edit: So uh the new invert-oriented foods shouldn't have any copper, huh? Since copper sulfate is the form that is toxic to inverts, I would advise against feeding inverts Ken's Premium Sinking Pellets with Spirulina. (http://www.kensfish.com/kenspellets.html) Ingredients: SOYBEAN MEAL, FISH MEAL, CORN GLUTEN MEAL, WHEAT FLOUR, DEHYDRATED ALFALFA MEAL, DRIED SPIRULINA ALGEA, FISH OIL, BREWERS DRIED YEAST, SHRIMP MEAL, SOY LECITHIN, DRIED KRILL, MONOSODIUM PHOSPHATE, CHOLINE CHLORIDE, L-ASCORBYL-2-POLYPHOSPHATE(SOURCE OF VITAMIN C), INOSITOL, MENADIONE DIMETHYLPYRIMIDINOL BISULFITE, PARA-AMINOBENZOIC ACID, DI-ALPHA TOCOPHEROL ACETATE (SOURCE OF VITAMIN E), NIACIN, CALCIUM PANTOTHENATE, VITAMIN B12 SUPPLEMENT, D-ACTIVATED ANIMAL STEROL (SOURCE OF VITAMIN D3), FOLIC ACID, RIBOFLAVIN, BIOTIN, VITAMIN A ACETATE, THIAMINE MONONITRATE, PYRIDOXINE HYDROCHLORIDE, ZINC SULFATE, MANGANESE SULFATE, COPPER SULFATE, POTASSIUM IODATE, BHT & ETHOXYQUIN (ADDED AS PRESERVATIVES).

to be fair though, that pellet is designed for bottom feeder fish, not inverts.

Lupin
02-26-2009, 1:25 AM
Could you please try emailing Hikari and ask the data for copper traces?

vampie
02-26-2009, 1:30 AM
I'm sure they would get enough from other sources, otherwise they'd be dead, wouldn't they? I still avoid foods with copper intentionally added though, since you can't really measure how much they're taking in and what their threshold is, it just seems it'd do more harm than good.

pik01
02-26-2009, 1:37 AM
sure, I'll try shooting them an email, can't hurt.

Lupin
02-26-2009, 1:41 AM
further edit: So uh the new invert-oriented foods shouldn't have any copper, huh? Since copper sulfate is the form that is toxic to inverts, I would advise against feeding inverts Ken's Premium Sinking Pellets with Spirulina. (http://www.kensfish.com/kenspellets.html) Ingredients: SOYBEAN MEAL, FISH MEAL, CORN GLUTEN MEAL, WHEAT FLOUR, DEHYDRATED ALFALFA MEAL, DRIED SPIRULINA ALGEA, FISH OIL, BREWERS DRIED YEAST, SHRIMP MEAL, SOY LECITHIN, DRIED KRILL, MONOSODIUM PHOSPHATE, CHOLINE CHLORIDE, L-ASCORBYL-2-POLYPHOSPHATE(SOURCE OF VITAMIN C), INOSITOL, MENADIONE DIMETHYLPYRIMIDINOL BISULFITE, PARA-AMINOBENZOIC ACID, DI-ALPHA TOCOPHEROL ACETATE (SOURCE OF VITAMIN E), NIACIN, CALCIUM PANTOTHENATE, VITAMIN B12 SUPPLEMENT, D-ACTIVATED ANIMAL STEROL (SOURCE OF VITAMIN D3), FOLIC ACID, RIBOFLAVIN, BIOTIN, VITAMIN A ACETATE, THIAMINE MONONITRATE, PYRIDOXINE HYDROCHLORIDE, ZINC SULFATE, MANGANESE SULFATE, COPPER SULFATE, POTASSIUM IODATE, BHT & ETHOXYQUIN (ADDED AS PRESERVATIVES).

to be fair though, that pellet is designed for bottom feeder fish, not inverts.

It wasn't what Ken recommended. Good point though but I don't think that one was for inverts rather for fish. Here's his email to me.



Hello,
I would recommend any of our sticks for your inverts. None of these have any copper added to them so they are very good.
We have a new veggie stick that will be available by the end of next week that has 20% calcium in it. This food was developed at the request of people who breed the inverts and also for the snails.
The spirulina garlic bits are a sinking bit and the garlic does help to kill the internal parasites. The spirulina also helps to clean them out.
If you have any further questions feel free to email me back.

Thank You


Here were the questions I asked this morning minus one for garlic which is not related to this subject.


1. Which food product do you recommend for the invertebrates? I saw the section for New Premium Catfish Pellets. What is the guaranteed analysis of calcium in it?

2. Have you designed any food products specially for the snails?

pik01
02-26-2009, 2:12 AM
ah, good to know :)

Lupin
03-06-2009, 8:37 PM
sure, I'll try shooting them an email, can't hurt.
Bump for Pik. Pik, I miss your presence here. Hope you have some updates.:)