Something Sensible.. Someone?

[Kashta]

Lordy... :help:

See, here's what happened. I needed some extra tanks, so I got them through Craigslist. Well, one of the 30 gallons I got was from a man who used his for feeders. He offered me his 10 gallon too (which I wanted) for another $20. So I turned it down (of course) and he threw it in for free. Yay! I like free tanks.

But now the problem, he also has a 55 gallon to sell. Good equipment, not junky stuff. Nice low price. He'll deliver it for nothing 45 minutes away... sounds good. But it's got fish in it. A big, mean, rotten, nasty fish who eats other fish, while his cousins hang out on that "other side" of the aisle I never pay attention to in the fish stores. (I shouldn't have looked, I know. It's adorable.) Sure enough.. no charge for the fish.

So.. he told me all about it, what to do, etc. He could ID the fish for me by common name, but didn't know it was a cichlid. Okay, I knew to stop asking questions at this point. As long as I know what it is, I can find out everything else. But here's the question, do I get this or not?

The fish is a Midas/Red Devil. (Yeah, that's what I need. A big ORANGE fish. lol.) I looked up Red Devils... horribly aggressive, very common among cichlid folks. Suitable tankmates are real limited and many of those, only if they grew up together. The cichlid comes with a big ugly pleco (also adorable). The 55 gallon tank he's in now is the minimum size for that fish, not counting the pleco. That means upgrading them to a big tank. Okay.. so I free up the 55 gallon for more plants, tropical schooling fish, whatever else. That's not a bad thing.

This tank is maxxed out now. If I take this, how big do I go with the new upgrade? And in that case, what else do I put in there with him and the pleco?

I've got goldfish tanks in 3 other rooms. But I could open up one wall for this in the living room with a good 11 feet of working space. Set up a nice show tank there. If the new tank won't fit through the door (no clear room for it to turn 90 degrees), I can get helpers to lift it straight in through the window. The owner of the tank/fish is just starting to pack up for a move that's 3 months away. So there's time enough to plan this out and do all the research.

I started doing that already. But I'm not going to trust recommendations I find at other websites. So I'm real open to suggestions. Just make sure nothing else is orange.

He emailed some photos. You'll find the big pleco, standing on it's head behind the bubbles in the first shot. The second photo shows the full tank. He put up a temporary divider to make room for the feeders there too.. so he could sell off the 30 gallon I bought.

[stezatois]

Looking at the pictures there i would figure he would come over as being mean and nasty lol, but how sweet. Theres no hiding places for him. Midas i belive like caves. I would imagine that he would be much happier with his own spaces. Pots, pipes etc. I found a site that is souley about midas cichlids that a read of may be of a little help to you. http://www.midas-cichlid.com/cichlid_aggression.html There are a few tabs to cover different things about these fish on the site.

[Kashta]

LOL. Yes, he's very sweet. Looks so peaceful and timid. But I also know what "one of the most aggressive cichlids" means. I do the wrong thing with this, it's a tank full of carnage. I like that website too.. I've been browsing through the gallery at other tank setups.. read about the aggression part first. There's a wealth of information. Another part of the same question, I guess... If I leave stocking alone. Do I still need a bigger tank? I'm not sure about the Red Devil/Pleco combination yet. It just seems obvious to me that this isn't going to be enough room for both of them.

[Rbishop]

A great looking fish with a lot of personality. Personally I would keep it and get a 125 gallon tank and some suitable tank mates.

[mostlycichlids]

I agree get a larger tank and keep it ...It is a very healthy good looking RD.

[Kashta]

Oh I am. The guy selling it never named his fish, so the RD is going to be "Renan" and the big pleco will be "Spook." Anyway, I'm working on what I can have in there with them after the upgrade. I like the 125 gallon best for that size range (ty rbishop). Standard 72" length and good depth, so no problems getting hard-to-fit lights or doing custom tops like it was with my 60" long 110 gallon tank. Depth is good. A 100 gallon would be too short, my arms aren't long enough for the taller 150 (I'd be up on a stool all the time to do anything in there while trying not to get bit), and a 180 would stick out further into the living room which might be in the way for people passing by it.

For stocking it once everything is ready.. yeesh. This aggressive stuff isn't easy to figure out. I see why this beast isn't a starter fish for new cichlid people - I'm not sure if I'm selecting tankmates here or future combatants.

Looking through RD sites, I'm finding a lot where they warn you to choose tankmates carefully. Well, yeah. No kidding. Of course, they don't bother to mention what those might be. One site even told me nothing is suitable, especially not other RDs. Another says Jack Dempseys, Green Terrors, Oscars, most Plecos, and new world catfish would be best. Those look good, I suppose. Still need to look up what new world catfish are. I've read up on the others - this is a getting a little scary.. so I gave up on the profile pages for a while and looked for people who have Red Devils and mention somewhere what else they stocked with it. That isn't helping either...

Found these examples:

90 gallon tank - 1 Red Devil 2 Yellow Comps 2 Frontosa 2 Peacock 1 Electric Yellow 1 Large Pleco 2 gold calvus 3 black calvus 1 white calvus.

55 gallon tank - 1 Red Devil and 2 Convicts.

55gal - 2 Midas/Red Devils, 4 Jack Dempseys, 3 Convicts, 50 Convict Fry.
Looked all those up. A LOT of them are way less aggressive or even timid... best suited for a community tank. That doesn't sound safe for them with this fish lurking around (despite his sweet face and pastel coloring!). Some of these also need hard water or soft/neutral water. That's compatible? Which raises another question to find out - should I stick with only American cichlids or is it okay to mix them with Africans? What about NON-cichlids that are semi-aggressive too?

Next up, another Craigslist add - an 80 gallon tank with 5 Bismark Frontosas, 2 White Calvus, and "some other fish." I recognized the Calvus name.. but those sound doubtful. Looked up Frontosas.. but after seeing the photo he sent, all these fish are all very young. The RD is already quite large. So an age/size factor would make others more vulnerable.

At this point, all I can say is I'm glad I've got 3 months to work this out.

[krytan]

Found these examples:
90 gallon tank - 1 Red Devil 2 Yellow Comps 2 Frontosa 2 Peacock 1 Electric Yellow 1 Large Pleco 2 gold calvus 3 black calvus 1 white calvus. Over stocked and you shouldn't mix African and American cichlids.

55 gallon tank - 1 Red Devil and 2 Convicts. Would work in a bigger tank.

55gal - 2 Midas/Red Devils, 4 Jack Dempseys, 3 Convicts, 50 Convict Fry. Would work in a HUGE tank.
Best to stick with other central American cichlids like JD's, GT's or texas cichlids.

[Neonsilver]

Ok, so I'll post my original mistake and stocking. I do know that it was overstocked but it seemed to work itself out in a negative fashion. All but one small Oscar was added from the beginning.

What lasted:
190- Red devil - over 7"
Red terror - 4"
Green terror - 6"
6 convicts - ranging 3-6"
JD - 5"
Black belt - 12"
Nicaraguan - 8 or 9"
Asian red tailed cat - 12"
Common pleco - 10"

What didn't:
5 Oscars - One was only a couple inches added late and didn't last a night, the others ended around 12" or so
Clown knife - 10" or so
Shovelnose cat - 9"
I don't remember if there was anything else but looking back on it now I really hope not.

[krytan]

Ok, so I'll post my original mistake and stocking. I do know that it was overstocked but it seemed to work itself out in a negative fashion. All but one small Oscar was added from the beginning.

What lasted:
190- Red devil - over 7"
Red terror - 4"
Green terror - 6"
6 convicts - ranging 3-6"
JD - 5"
Black belt - 12"
Nicaraguan - 8 or 9"
Asian red tailed cat - 12"
Common pleco - 10"

What didn't:
5 Oscars - One was only a couple inches added late and didn't last a night, the others ended around 12" or so
Clown knife - 10" or so
Shovelnose cat - 9"
I don't remember if there was anything else but looking back on it now I really hope not.
Your Asian red tailed cat is going to grow to 4' and kill everything in your tank.

[Neonsilver]

Your Asian red tailed cat is going to grow to 4' and kill everything in your tank.
Sorry, I forgot to say that everything in that tank was taken to the LFS and is hopefully doing better now than it was then. The LFS still has the ARTC and is about 2 feet right now, if I had a tank big enough I'd buy him back and keep him by himself. Past that I was just giving some insight on what should have a better chance than most with the RD.

[Kashta]

Thank you both. That was a huge help for me to narrow down what I'm looking at and I like all of these a lot. Personalities are real interesting. They're all breathtaking fish, too. Much bolder than I was expecting.

Red Devil
Jack Dempsey
Green Terror
Convict
Common Pleco

What about the Nicaraguan. Would that okay with these others? Just double-checking because some sites don't recommend them with the highly aggressive ones.

Is this too many to have together in a 125? What about 100 or 110, depending on the tank I find.

Do I stay with 1 each - or do some of them prefer pairs/groups? I'd rather keep this simple and have this tank way understocked. That makes it easier for me and for them. Also know I'll have to be able to isolate someone fast if there's any trouble.

[Neonsilver]

The Nic I probably wouldn't go with unless they grew up together, I think that's the only reason mine became so aggressive. I'd say the con's you could go with more than one but a breeding pair is definitely going to upset the order of the tank. I'll leave the others to someone else.

[Kashta]

Thanks, Neon. I'd rather not have any breeding pairs at all. Some fish don't handle the isolation of being kept singly, though, so I need to know about groupings. Further cut down the fish list if need be. Those are the things you can't tell from profiles and other people's stocking lists. People who keep these are the ones who can tell me about the personalities and interaction.

Also.. as the RD I'm getting is quite large already, that means I'll have to find the others already grown too? So no juvie fish from the LFS? Or will a lot of cover, boundaries, pots, and caves be safe enough for them until they get bigger? I know about introducing them slowly in reverse order by aggressiveness. Not sure that's going to help enough if other fish aren't already full-sized. I could only keep the adult sized fish in the main tank and keep younger fish in their own smaller tank until they grow older and bigger if this might work better.

[Kashta]

Sorry to bother you guys with this, but I still have some questions I can't answer very well on my own.

These two come with the tank I'm getting, both already quite large. And I'm delighted to be getting them. But that 55 gallon tank is way too small even for just these two. So I'm going to upgrade it, probably before they get here. (I have almost 3 months to prepare everything.)

Red Devil
Common Pleco
These 3 types seem to be the best choices as tankmates.

Jack Dempsey
Green Terror
Convict
I have the room and nice large tanks are plentiful on Craigslist here locally. Since tank size and space isn't a problem, I'd like to add just one, two, or all three of these fish. (I know stocking and tank size questions are a PIA, but I value the guidance you guys can give me very much.)

So these are they remaining questions I have.

1. Is this too many to have together in a 125? What about 100 or 110, depending on the tank I find. (I'd rather stay understocked here than cram in more fish that don't need to be there.)

2. Do I stay with 1 each as individuals - or do any of these need to be in pairs or groups instead? I'm not looking to breed anything, that would complicate this beyond what I want for them. So I'd rather drop fish from my list who won't be happy here without companions of the same species.

3. The RD I'm getting is quite large already, does that means I'll have to find the others already grown too? No juvie fish from the LFS? Or will a lot of cover, boundaries, pots, and caves be safe enough until they get bigger? (I know about introducing them slowly in reverse order by aggressiveness. But I'm not sure that helps enough if the others are too young/small to coexist with a full grown RD.)

I'm already happy with the RD and Pleco by themselves. So all the others are optional. I just don't want to make a mess of this by adding the wrong fish, the wrong age, or the wrong quantity.

Thanks for all your help!

[FSM]

RDs are generally more aggressive than those. GTs especially aren't particularly mean. It really depends though; sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't.

The easiest solution is to keep it by itself in a 75. They are entertaining fish; its not like its going to be lonely either.

[Kashta]

The easiest solution is to keep it by itself in a 75. They are entertaining fish; its not like its going to be lonely either.

With or without the pleco?