LFS Advice

[mikedickbek]

Hi All,
My wife and I started our 40 gallon tank about a month ago, and the Ammonia levels are still staying at 1.5. We do water changes often (every 2-3 days) and the level remains the same. We have:
2 4" Gold Fish
2 1.5" Gold Fish
3 1" Guppies
1 1.5" Angel Fish
3 3/4" Neons
2 1" Tiger Barbs

My wife gives them 3 little pinches of food spread out throughout the day and they seem to eat most of it. We vacuum the rocks weekly and get some food out.
Today, we went to the LFS to look for a bottom dweller to eat up the extras that the others miss. We were interested in the Elephant Nose, but were told they only eat shrimp and blood worms. Wouldn't do anything for us. She then told us to look at the Plecos. After we told her what we had in the tank (to verify compatibility), the lady (young, young lady) told us that we shouldn't have the gold fish in there because they poop ammonia. I was under the impression that all fish poop ammonia. Is there something about gold fish ammonia that's worse than that of other fish? She was appalled that we had other fish in the same tank as them. As soon as we turned away to look at more fish, we could hear her telling her tale of disgust with another employee.
We definitely won't be going by that place anymore, but as for what she said, was she right? Should the Gold fish be segregated from the others?
Thanks for any help.
Mike

[petluvr]

The goldies are cold water and the other aren't and they will need A LOT more room, return them in my opinion. Your ammonia problem is coming from all the fish you have in the tank, WAY OVERSTOCKED.

[paperdragon]

All fish produce ammonia, so that's not the problem. The problem is that the tank is very, very overstocked and you have coldwater fish in with tropicals.
I'd suggest finding new homes for those goldfish. A 40g tank is only big enough for 3 fancy goldfish (moors, fantails, etc) at the most, and not at all big enough for commons/comets/shubunkins (you didn't specify which type of goldies you have).

[jpappy789]

They don't poop ammonia per se but fish waste will decompose into ammonia. Goldfish are bulky compared to fish of similar length so there mass results in more waste than expected.

Please read this to inform yourselves on cycling.

http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=84598

Right now you need to be doing as many water changes as possible to keep ammonia at 0 ppm. Any amount is going to be harmful to fish. Do you have tests for nitrate and nitrite as well?

As soon as ammonia and nitrite are consistently at 0 ppm and you have nitrates you are cycled. The link describes it much better than I can.

You also have some major stocking problems. Your goldfish need to be removed. They simply will get too large for the tank size and generally do not do as well at the higher temps.

Tiger barbs also need to be in larger groups (6 minimum) or nipping will become a huge issue. The angels fins will be the first target, so will the guppies.

Full grown angels have also been known to snack on neon tetras. Not a good mix. Larger bodied tetras such as lemons or diamonds would be more suitable tank mates.

Do not add anymore fish until your current situation is figured out. If anything, you need to remove fish and rethink your stocking plan.

[Mgamer20o0]

Hi All,
My wife and I started our 40 gallon tank about a month ago, and the Ammonia levels are still staying at 1.5. We do water changes often (every 2-3 days) and the level remains the same. We have:
2 4" Gold Fish
2 1.5" Gold Fish
3 1" Guppies
1 1.5" Angel Fish
3 3/4" Neons
2 1" Tiger Barbs

My wife gives them 3 little pinches of food spread out throughout the day and they seem to eat most of it. We vacuum the rocks weekly and get some food out.
Today, we went to the LFS to look for a bottom dweller to eat up the extras that the others miss. We were interested in the Elephant Nose, but were told they only eat shrimp and blood worms. Wouldn't do anything for us. She then told us to look at the Plecos. After we told her what we had in the tank (to verify compatibility), the lady (young, young lady) told us that we shouldn't have the gold fish in there because they poop ammonia. I was under the impression that all fish poop ammonia. Is there something about gold fish ammonia that's worse than that of other fish? She was appalled that we had other fish in the same tank as them. As soon as we turned away to look at more fish, we could hear her telling her tale of disgust with another employee.
We definitely won't be going by that place anymore, but as for what she said, was she right? Should the Gold fish be segregated from the others?
Thanks for any help.
Mike
could have been worse could have just sold you what ever you were asking for then when the tank crashed from too many fish sell you another tank full of fish.

i would follow what the others said. first find new homes for the goldfish or get another tank.

[7itanium]

1- your tank is severely overstocked

2- you didnt let it cycle before stocking

3- goldfish cannot be in the tank with tropical fish, and cant be in a 40g in the first place as they can get 3 feet long and love to swim

Tank the goldfish back-- do DAILY waterchanges untill the tank cycles

you will be lucky if all or any of your fish make it.. sorry man

[Jaykit]

Ammonia is the result of fish waste as it is with any other living organism, its just that goldies are known for being waste dumps and contributing mass amounts of waste to your system. As per what you should have in your tank, everyone has their own opinions on what works and what doesn't. I've had all sorts of different combos of fish together that most would disagree with. Yes, your tank may be overstocked but its not like you are negectling it by not doing waterchanges, in fact I'm sure that your fish are all quite happy. If you are looking for a bottom dwelling fish corys are good for scurying around cleaning up all the left over food on the bottom. They are best in groups of 3+ as with most fish. So if you did want to go that route, then you could return the goldies for some of them, or there are lots of other different types of bottom dwellers. If you were to go with the elephant nose, you would probably need to get rid of some the tank mates and caiter your tank to its needs and find other fish that would work with it in a community. Good luck in your seaches. :)

[LeahK]

Aloha, Mike. :) If your tank is not cycled, then your life will be a lot easier if you add some cycled filter media. I'm in Honolulu, too, and I'd be happy to give you one of my filter pads. Just pm me if you're interested.

[WeeGlo@nite]

Hi All,
My wife and I started our 40 gallon tank about a month ago, and the Ammonia levels are still staying at 1.5. We do water changes often (every 2-3 days) and the level remains the same. We have:
2 4" Gold Fish
2 1.5" Gold Fish
3 1" Guppies
1 1.5" Angel Fish
3 3/4" Neons
2 1" Tiger Barbs

My wife gives them 3 little pinches of food spread out throughout the day and they seem to eat most of it. We vacuum the rocks weekly and get some food out.
Today, we went to the LFS to look for a bottom dweller to eat up the extras that the others miss. We were interested in the Elephant Nose, but were told they only eat shrimp and blood worms. Wouldn't do anything for us. She then told us to look at the Plecos. Pleco's will not eat the waist of other fish. Really the only thing to break down the "Detritus" is vacuuming which it sounds like you've been doing. There are tricks to extend the time between vacuumes like a Under Gravel Filter with Power heads, or fish like peacock eals that stir the gravel, however none of those will CURE the problem.After we told her what we had in the tank (to verify compatibility), the lady (young, young lady) told us that we shouldn't have the gold fish in there. She is correct there. As mentioned before raising the temperature of goldfish (Depending on what kind they are) will actually speed up their metabolism. This in turn means more ammonia. Because of this most indoor goldfish like moranda's, or telescope eyes are given dedicated tanks with lots of room to accomodate their heavy "Bioload"because they poop ammonia. I was under the impression that all fish poop ammonia. Is there something about gold fish ammonia that's worse than that of other fish? She was appalled that we had other fish in the same tank as them. As soon as we turned away to look at more fish, we could hear her telling her tale of disgust with another employee. I'm sorry I know how frustraiting it can be to need and want help and be laughed at. Some people just have "Fisues" as my freind Barbie likes to call it. Take your time and think about what direction you want to go with your tank. If you want to keep it the way it is I can tell you from experience that hard work is the only thing thats going to permit you to continue keeping those fish together like that. Your other choices could be picking either a cold water or warm water tank. Hope this helps!
We definitely won't be going by that place anymore, but as for what she said, was she right? Should the Gold fish be segregated from the others?
Thanks for any help.
Mike

See your text. I have put answers inside and color coded them.

[Kashta]

She was appalled that we had other fish in the same tank as them. As soon as we turned away to look at more fish, we could hear her telling her tale of disgust with another employee.
We definitely won't be going by that place anymore,...

Hi Mike,

I know how embarassing that must have been for you. And you probably feel very insulted by what you overheard. Still, don't hold that against the LFS or this particular salesperson. It sounds like she was trying to help by pointing out that you have the wrong kind of fish mixed together. Then probably got the impression that you weren't listening. So this isn't really a bad thing. Most fish stores (big or small) hire employees with much less knowledge than that. They have sold you too many fish all at once - probably several other things you don't really need. But that goes with the job. They're supposed to sell as much stock/products as possible to keep profits coming in. As fishkeepers and consumers, it becomes our responsibility to learn (over time) what really works and what doesn't. It's the same way anywhere else.. just walk in to any computer store or auto dealership. You'll get the same thing. If you don't know what you're buying as well or better than the sales staff.. you need to take everything they recommend with a grain of salt.

One thing you need to realize... you are still on the right track. Don't let a few common rookie mistakes discourage you. The important thing is you're still asking questions and you're finding the advice you actually need. You're just a beginner at this - you're not supposed to know everything yet. Give yourself a break.. let go of the outrage you felt against this LFS person (who had good reason to feel disgust and frustration as often as she sees people making these mistakes).. follow the advice already posted in this thread.. and keep asking all the questions you want.

We'll all do our best to help you learn what to do and explain why.

[bitbot]

they can get 3 feet long

:rofl:

Anyway...
the girl was rude, but she was kind of right.
A lot of salespeople will sell you whatever they can without regard to the welfare of the fish.

[Cory Keeper]

as much as you might dislike it however, the LFS is correct in this situation. That is way way way too many goldfish for a tank that size. That isn't just "a fish or two" that is really over stocked. I probably would have done the same as the employee, but then again I am a heartless SO*.

If I was you, I would ditch the goldfish (angel is fine, but would probably eat the neons and/or guppys, its hit or miss) and look at what fish you have remaining and decide if you want to keep them. Do be aware that Tiger Barbs are rather aggressive little fish and calm down a little when they get the chance to school (5 or more fish) and with only two, would probably take their agressions out on other tankmates.

[jenpen737]

i would just like to make a note about the tiger barbs. We started with a school of five and they were nipping very large fish. we read that we should get a few more and the aggresion would not be as bad. Now we have seven of them and they take down and kill all kinds of fish. They started with neons, then they took down a large molly. I have had to put them in a separate tank because they were going after small oscars and convicts. I hate that these are sold as community fish in most pet stores. I would also like to say that overstocking is something that happens to a lot of people. Please do not feel that you are the only one who has ever done this. At this point all you can do is try to fix the situation and move forward. Please dont let this discourage you.

[SMinNC]

If the goldfish were removed. You'd have a very nicely understocked tank.

The angel's get Tall. So if this is a 48" long 40g. it'll be kind of a tight fit, height wise.

Also, removing the goldfish will cut the bio-load by about 90%. Which would be real good for the remaining fish, sense it's only a month old.

Now only if the B*%$& at the fish store would have just tried to explain, how and why this set-up isn't a good idea. We'd all be better off.

[mikedickbek]

Wow! Thanks to you all for commenting on this. I'll definately take all your advice and see what can be done to fix this. It all started about a year ago when my Mom came out to visit. The last day she was here, she went to the store and bought two fish: a moor Goldfish and a fantail(?). She stuck them in a little glass bowl and flew back home. They started to get bigger and bigger, so we moved them to a bigger tank (maybe 5 gal) we bought. They started looking cramped in there too, so we decided to get the 40 gal up and running. After we had them in it, my wife wanted other little fish, so we got them. We'll have to figure something else out now...
Thanks again!

[SMinNC]

nother 40, for the goldies? ;)

[paperdragon]

nother 40, for the goldies? ;)

Make it a 55 or even better 75. Even the little fancy goldies get pretty good sized.

Besides, who wouldn't want a nice moderate sized display tank? ;)

[mikedickbek]

Ha ha! We're moving in a year, so I'm planning on getting a new one after the move. I definitely won't make this mistake again though!