my first salty tank

[evelyn80]

so i have a few questions as to keeping salty live stock:

1: how is this list for a 3 gallon FOWLR?

1-2 peppermint shrimp
2-3 sexy shrimp
any fish that would live fine in this or is altogether to small?

2: wat do i feed them? wat do i need to feed these creatures

3: when cycling do i cycle with or without live rock

4: is regular all purpose sand ok to use for substrate or do i need crushed coral?

5: are parametres the same as fresh water for the acceptable range(0-0->20)

ill post more questions later but if you could answer these that would be amazing! thanks!

[severum mama]

so i have a few questions as to keeping salty live stock:

1: how is this list for a 3 gallon FOWLR?

1-2 peppermint shrimp
I'd probably skip these. IMHO they will grow a bit too large for a 3 gallon.
2-3 sexy shrimp
Excellent choice. I've kept these in tanks as small as 2.5 gallons. You could keep 3-4 if you don't get the peppermint shrimp.
any fish that would live fine in this or is altogether to small?
I once kept a clown goby in a small tank, but I wouldn't recommend it knowing what I know now. A group of sexy shrimp is a much better choice and they are surprisingly entertaining! :)

2: wat do i feed them? wat do i need to feed these creatures
I never fed my sexy shrimp and they just lived off the tank. They will pick at stuff in your tank.

3: when cycling do i cycle with or without live rock
Put the rock in the tank and cycle with it in there. Any die-off on the rock will help to cycle your tank. When I had my 2.5 I cycled it with fish food and it worked fine.

4: is regular all purpose sand ok to use for substrate or do i need crushed coral?
I prefer aragonite sand. It is easier to keep clean than crushed coral. You won't need much and you should be able to pick it up cheap.

5: are parametres the same as fresh water for the acceptable range(0-0->20)
Ammonia and nitrite will be 0 in a cycled SW tank, just like FW. Nitrate should be as low as possible, preferably 5 or less. You may actually get to the point where your nitrate will hit 0 as well, if you resist the urge to overstock. Marine animals are more sensitive to water quality than FW animals, so keep that in mind.

ill post more questions later but if you could answer these that would be amazing! thanks!

Comments in red.

What kind of equipment do you plan to use? When I had the 2.5 I just set it up with an Aquaclear 20, took out the media, and filled the chamber with live rock rubble. My parameters were always great once the tank stabilized (which BTW, takes a lot longer for a SW tank than for FW). You'll need a SW test kit- API makes one that is relatively cheap. You will also need to monitor the salinity with a hydrometer or refractometer. A refractometer is a lot more expensive, but much more accurate, so if you can afford a refracto definitely do so. Also, if you didn't already know, it's important to not use tap water in a SW system. This will help to prevent problems with nuisance algae. Many LFS's will sell you premixed SW for water changes, as well as RO/DI water for topping off your tank. Speaking of topping off with FW, it is likely that you will need to do this daily to compensate for evaporation. When I had the 2.5, I sometimes had to top off twice daily.

Finally, I cannot stress enough the importance of research before you begin. Take your time and go slowly. A small tank is a challenging route to take into the salty side of the hobby. It can be done, but it does require daily attention, and remember that problems arise much more quickly in a small tank than in a larger one. If there is any way you could start in a larger tank I would recommend doing so. I upgraded my 2.5 twice because I found myself wanting more space (i.e. more stocking options).

[evelyn80]

thx sev mama!! i was going to use a penguin 150 on a separate chamber for filtering and havit return to the tank and have the skimmer im making go on a diff chamber to. also since neon blue gobies are small could i do one of those if i could find it? and wat would the shrimps pic at stuff on the live rock?

[severum mama]

thx sev mama!! i was going to use a penguin 150 on a separate chamber for filtering and havit return to the tank and have the skimmer im making go on a diff chamber to. also since neon blue gobies are small could i do one of those if i could find it? and wat would the shrimps pic at stuff on the live rock?,

I can't quite picture what you mean by using the Penguin for a different chamber, but just so you know it isn't really necessary to run a skimmer on a pico/nano tank. You can get around using a skimmer by doing frequent water changes, and as long as you stick to your maintenance routine you shouldn't have issues with water quality.

I would advise against keeping any fish in a 3 gallon tank, there just isn't enough room. An invert tank can be just as fascinating, IMHO. :)

[evelyn80]

inverts it is! though wouldnt it be cheaper to just have the skimmer and not have to buy salt all the time? plus i have a connection where it runs to my DIY skimmer, then to another holding tank where its filtered and heated and the a tube which puts it back in the main tank. also do i need a power head for a non reef tank?

[severum mama]

inverts it is! though wouldnt it be cheaper to just have the skimmer and not have to buy salt all the time? plus i have a connection where it runs to my DIY skimmer, then to another holding tank where its filtered and heated and the a tube which puts it back in the main tank. also do i need a power head for a non reef tank?

You need to use saltwater for your water changes, and you cannot add marine salt mix directly to the tank so you must either buy it premixed from the LFS or mix it yourself. You need un-salted RO/DI water to top off your tank as water evaporates out of it, since your salinity will rise as a result of evaporation.

The above is true regardless of whether or not you choose to run a skimmer.

[evelyn80]

ohh ok thx sev mama! im gonna go write that down! i was under the impression you HAD to have a skimmer to make it work rite! anyways a bit of an update i bought a 5.5 from an lfs thats going out of business for 3$!! but it cracked :( so siliconed it back together and am gonna move my 4 hermits over to it and use the 10 gallon for my salty so i now have a 10 gallon to play with :) im still doing shrimp but would the neon blue goby or possibly a clown fish work in this set-up?

[severum mama]

Very cool that you are going to use a 10 gallon as opposed to a 3 gallon. You can keep a neon goby in there, or you could keep one ocellaris clownfish, but not both. This link might give you some other ideas as well:
http://www.liveaquaria.com/product/aquarium-fish-supplies.cfm?c=15+2124

I kept a hi-fin banded goby for some time and it was a really cool fish, plus, there is a chance that it will pair with a pistol shrimp. That could make for a really interesting tank IMO. :)

The most important thing to remember is to take your time planning everything out, because you will end up spending a lot less money and having more fun with it in the long run if you make good stocking and equipment choices initially.

[evelyn80]

do i need a power head? i keep reading you need them for reefs but wat about just a FOWLR tank? and i need approx 10 pounds of LR correct? i mote do a clown fish they are my absolute fav salt water fish ive always wanted one! and could i still keep shrimp if i got a clown?

[severum mama]

do i need a power head? i keep reading you need them for reefs but wat about just a FOWLR tank? and i need approx 10 pounds of LR correct? i mote do a clown fish they are my absolute fav salt water fish ive always wanted one! and could i still keep shrimp if i got a clown?

If you are just planning on using the Penguin filter, you should add a powerhead as well. A Koralia nano or similar would be good I think. And yes, you can still keep sexy shrimp if you get an ocellaris clown. You could keep a peppermint too if you want. As for the live rock, I'd guess you'll end up with somewhere around 10-15 lbs, but it just depends on how porous the rock is.

[evelyn80]

ahh ok thx sev mama! now to go find a powerhead, or could i just use a penguin 100 along with the 150?

[severum mama]

I think you'd have better results with a HOB and powerhead rather than 2 HOBs. You'll need to provide more flow in a SW tank than you do in FW, plus, a powerhead will allow you to aim it to eliminate dead spots.

[evelyn80]

ok fair enough thx sev mama. actually i dont need to get one of my hobs has the powerhead right in the water ill just take that off and put the penguin 100 on that! :D im gonna need to get u's some pics soon :)

[severum mama]

I'm not really following your post. What I am suggesting is that you run the Penguin HOB filter, and remove the mechanical filtration and put live rock rubble in the back chamber. In addition to the HOB, I suggest that you use a powerhead for circulation. The live rock in your tank, in addition to the live rock rubble in the Penguin, will provide enough biological filtration to support your tank. Aragonite sand will become live sand in time so that helps with bio filtration as well. Mechanical media like filter pads can cause nitrate issues in a marine tank so I don't recommend using them. Many people suggest removing the Biowheel for the same reason. Does this make sense? :)

[evelyn80]

ohh ok! that makes sense! how do i run carbon through it then?

[severum mama]

IME you don't need to. I don't even run carbon for FW. If you really feel like you want to use carbon, just get an aquaclear carbon insert and stick it on top of your live rock rubble in the Penguin. :)

[evelyn80]

oh if u dont need to forget it then! thx sev im gonna save all this info:idea: wats a good deal for LR approx $1 a pound? im gonna post an add for some as i have all the materials except a hydrometer or refractometer so mite as well. also i have another stocking question: would a firefish, neon blue goby, wheelers watchmen goby, 1 pistol shrimp and some sexy shrimp work 2gether?

[severum mama]

oh if u dont need to forget it then! thx sev im gonna save all this info:idea: wats a good deal for LR approx $1 a pound? im gonna post an add for some as i have all the materials except a hydrometer or refractometer so mite as well. also i have another stocking question: would a firefish, neon blue goby, wheelers watchmen goby, 1 pistol shrimp and some sexy shrimp work 2gether?

$1 per pound for LR would be an INSANE deal. It retails for $8-9 per pound in my area. If I were you I'd look for a seller on craigslist or kijiji that is getting out of the hobby. You can often find live rock for cheap if you hold out for it. ;)

As far as stocking, I would recommend that you choose ONE of the fish that you listed. If you choose a shrimp goby and want to keep a pistol shrimp, then skip the peppermint shrimp and keep a few sexys. If you choose fish other than a shrimp goby, you could keep a peppermint and the sexys. JMO.

One other thing- I cannot recommend enough that you spring for a refractometer. They are SO much more accurate than a hydrometer, at least this was the case for me (even when I had my hydrometer calibrated by my LFS boss when I worked there). I know it seems like a whole lot of money to spend at once, but you will be happy in the long run that you spent it.
Trust me. ;)

[Cory Keeper]

+1 on the refractometer, Got mine on E-bay for like $30 shipped ^_^ . Everything seems to thank me for it too, its all growing, even the coraline algae.

[evelyn80]

i'll look for a refractometer then. well if i can only do 1 ill do the clown fish

[evelyn80]

well heres my first update! no water yet just sand, a fake plant which i must have, the lid and light :) Its just an FTS so enjoy

also wat food do i need to feed the clown, just regular flakes or would it like brine shrimp pellets instead?

[Hooked Newbie]

What type of heater are you going to add? How much Live rock are you getting?

[evelyn80]

about 10-12 pounds and hopefully a stealth im still looking for the rite deal there HN

[Hooked Newbie]

Very cool! Looks like a good start! Can't wait for the updates. What stocking have you decided on?

[Ace25]

also wat food do i need to feed the clown, just regular flakes or would it like brine shrimp pellets instead?
For a clownfish, flake is fine, and so is mysis shrimp. Clowns are not too picky when it comes to food so most will be fine.

[evelyn80]

woohoo found a sweet deal on ebay 23$ shipped with 10 available for a stealth 50 watt heater! and another sweet deal on a refractometer its an auction but so far its only 13$ shipped!! and can i feed regular tropical flakes or do i need to get special SW flakes?

[ToeJam]

woohoo found a sweet deal on ebay 23$ shipped with 10 available for a stealth 50 watt heater! and another sweet deal on a refractometer its an auction but so far its only 13$ shipped!! and can i feed regular tropical flakes or do i need to get special SW flakes?

I would suggest buying reef formula 2 flake food for the clown. You should consider adding some variety to his diet and mysis shrimp is a great suggestion. Very good for the fish.

You can also consider Rod's Food ...its awsome. Has squid,mysis, octopus,oyster eggs, ....super long list...just to give you an idea.

My fish,crabs, and Snails all come out of every hiding spot when that hits the tank. I feed that like every 3 days...in between just a pinch of formula 2 to spoil the fish some (and fatten them).

[evelyn80]

ok ill look for that then thx toejam :)

[ToeJam]

ok ill look for that then thx toejam :)

I went and got a link of the product for you.


http://www.marinedepot.com/ps_ViewItem~category~Rod%60s_Food_Original_Blend_2 oz_Saltwater_Aquarium_Supplies_Food_Frozen___Refri gerated_Food_For_Fish___Corals_Flat_Pack~vendor~Ro d%60s_Food~SearchStr~~action~view~idProduct~RF1111 ~idCategory~FIFDFZFSFP.html

[evelyn80]

thx toejam! im gonna check my lfs and see if they can order it for me though so i dont have 2 pay shipping :)

[evelyn80]

would clowns eat brine shrimp pellets? i have a whole container of those that o fed my ram when i first got her because she wouldnt eat flakes...

[evelyn80]

an update, i added a penguin 100 for some more movement. still gonna us a power head but figured the extra movement wouldnt hurt

[evelyn80]

I GOT MY LR!!!!! unforetuneately only 7 pounds.... so i mite have to go to my 5.5. or is 7 pounds alright in a 10 if i mix some other rocks from the yard in? i also found my test kit for FW test SW also except for the ammo test so all i really need is an ammo test!. i bought a hydrometer for the short term until i can get a refractometer for my birthday. ill post pics tonite after i set-up the tank

[evelyn80]

a few pre set-up pics

[severum mama]

I know you mentioned the weight of your rock, but still it is hard to judge how much you have since it is in a bucket... still, it looks like you may have enough for your 10 gallon. If not, you can always add a couple more pounds later. I think you would be happier keeping this project in the 10 gallon. It will also be easier to keep stable than the 5.5, and you can get a clownfish like you wanted. Stick with an ocellaris IMO, as they tend to stay smaller and more passive than a lot of the other species.

Are you setting your tank up tonight with the LR? If so, best of luck!!! It'll be fun. If not, you should add a powerhead to that bucket to keep water circulating through the rock until you are able to get it in your tank.

[evelyn80]

well i set-up the tank today!! i have a power head, a penguin 150 and a penguin 100 for current making. i cant see any dead spots but ill keep watch. i already hate the hydrometer so im definitely gonna ask for a refractometer for my birthday in 3 weeks. anyways heres the pics!

[ChrisK]

Looks great!! Could maybe use a little more live rock. Great start evelyn.

[evelyn80]

ya my dads going to the lfs to get me some more tomorrow. @ 2$ a pound ill take it! they had a pile of coral growing on some of it so ill ask him to get some of that for me.

[severum mama]

ya my dads going to the lfs to get me some more tomorrow. @ 2$ a pound ill take it! they had a pile of coral growing on some of it so ill ask him to get some of that for me.

WOW what a steal on the live rock! It is $8-9 per pound in my area! If you purchase pieces with coral, keep in mind that any photosynthetic corals cannot survive under the lighting you have now. You will need to upgrade to keep even soft coral. That's awesome that your parents are willing to help you out for your birthday. You will absolutely love the refractometer- they are so easy to use! Just make sure you calibrate it correctly. Your LFS may be able to help you with that if you are unsure. I really like your pics, but I think that adding more LR in your display would definitely be beneficial to your system. If possible, get an extra piece and then use a hammer to break it and make LR rubble. That would be great for added bio filtration in your HOB chambers- much better than filter pads.

Keep us posted. I am looking forward to seeing how your first salty tank develops! :D

[Hooked Newbie]

Very cool! And Bravo! Keep taking your time and this will be an absolutely amazing tank! :). I agree with adding more live rock and needing better light for corals, but you really are off to a great start. Keep the updates coming.

[evelyn80]

actually i have a few flourescent bulbs i can use downstairs so we'll see if that works. im definitely getting more LR well its at this deal! the LFS will be outa business soon so im gonna get more asap possibly tomorrow they had a huge wing shaped peice coral on 1 but i didnt get it cause it was really heavy but im thinkin i just mite + they had some fiji rock 2 :D i can c why not 2 use hydrometers they are frustrating to use!!!!! ive gotten so many varied results its unbelieveable! the SG is in acceptable so range so i guess its ok. I also found my first hitch hiker!! it was a peanut worm but he got sucked in the power head and cut up and well hes not there anymore.... :(

[evelyn80]

another update, i added 9 pounds of LR to the tank + some LR rubble to my filter for filtration. i also found my cycle had completed! so i went to the lfs and got the last SW fish they had to sell, a yellow tailed blue damsel! hes absolutely gorgous! ill post pics of him when he gets more use to his new tank. he was in a tank with a giant angel looking fish, it was so big i was surprised it hadnt eaten the damsel! he does have a bit of his tail missing but it should grow back right?

[severum mama]

Congrats on the damsel. Just understand that you won't be able to keep a clownfish now... even if you had the space (which I don't think you do but others may disagree), it is unlikely IMO that the damsel would play nice with others. ;) But, they are pretty little fish and are really cool when kept by themselves in smaller tanks.

My only concern right now is that your live rock has only been in the tank for 2 days, at least according to when the pics were posted. I prefer to see folks chuck a raw shrimp in there and get a good cycle going, and then doing a massive water change and beginning to stock. I would strongly advise keeping a close eye on ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate levels, as well as pH. Marine tanks are a lot different than FW tanks in that, IMHO, they take much longer to mature and stabilize. Surprises can happen quickly in small SW tanks and unfortunately, they are rarely good. ;) Being prepared for issues that might arise is important, so be sure to keep some water mixed up, and keep using that test kit! :)

[Hooked Newbie]

Congrats on the damsel. Just understand that you won't be able to keep a clownfish now... even if you had the space (which I don't think you do but others may disagree), it is unlikely IMO that the damsel would play nice with others. ;) But, they are pretty little fish and are really cool when kept by themselves in smaller tanks.

My only concern right now is that your live rock has only been in the tank for 2 days, at least according to when the pics were posted. I prefer to see folks chuck a raw shrimp in there and get a good cycle going, and then doing a massive water change and beginning to stock. I would strongly advise keeping a close eye on ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate levels, as well as pH. Marine tanks are a lot different than FW tanks in that, IMHO, they take much longer to mature and stabilize. Surprises can happen quickly in small SW tanks and unfortunately, they are rarely good. ;) Being prepared for issues that might arise is important, so be sure to keep some water mixed up, and keep using that test kit! :)

:iagree: 100% (and not just because she's moving in this week). ;)

Also, check your SG daily and make sure to have plenty of RO readily available. :)

[evelyn80]

i do, i only bought the damsel cause the store was going out of business and was nearly sold it was then or never.im not concerend about getting but will the damsel play nice with invertz?

[severum mama]

From what I understand, the damsel should be fine with inverts. You still should be able to get your sexy shrimp and your peppermint shrimp. I will say, though, that I have never kept damsels personally and I'm only telling you what I have read. Every fish's personality is different. Hopefully you won't have any issues. :)

[Cory Keeper]

yes, by all means, keep RO water handy. Evaporation is crazy with SW. Sometime soon I think I'm gonna rig up a drip system just to keep the SG in check. I had it get up .030 on me one day.