my favorite pet store under fire?????

[rocker92]

http://www.startribune.com/local/south/41607212.html?page=1&c=y

great pet shop and i know Ed!!!!!! he knows his stuff about fish and im supporting him 100%!!!! but like he said "this is an old school pet shop" i do agree that he should do a bit of cleaning tho.

i just think that this is why some good shops go out of business. people like this woman claiming he abuses his animals.

[jpappy789]

Never been out there myself, but that sucks.

[rocker92]

he should stay in business but i dont like people like that. (the woman)

[bettagurl]

He sells dogs?
Where does he get them?
That could be one reason, unless he breeds his own, most reputable breeders will not sell to a pet store, and it is normally a puppy farm/mill that supply them, and it could be the reason for false claims...

[Dwarf Puffers]

Huh. My sheltie is named Jasmine. I can certainly believe that dogs were mistreated at a pet store, and considering they're shelties, I'm none too happy :angryfire:

And Rocker, if he isn't cleaning his tanks, I (although it isn't against the law) consider that abusive, too. Could you post a couple pics? Hopefully this is just media talking and I'll have a change of opinion ;)

[BreezeRuehls]

My fave pet stop is a little dingy, and smelly, but its old and the fish are always priced right. Never seen any sick animals, but I hear people cry about it. ! go there almost weekly, never seen a sick animal, but it could use some cleaning...

[debaric]

theres always some busy body that has nothing better to do than complain. She is probably some nut case.

[Tetracanthus]

theres always some busy body that has nothing better to do than complain. She is probably some nut case.
'
I agree to that!!!
I have no use for people who make un-informed decisions like that.:swear:
My favorite store is a little run down, yet a far cry better then these big box stores.
He knows his stuff, he's the best reptile guy in the city bar none!
Alas these type of shops are a thing of the past, soon all you'll be able to find are these big stores with their "Shiny newness".:swear:

Lloyd

[rocker92]

My fave pet stop is a little dingy, and smelly, but its old and the fish are always priced right. Never seen any sick animals, but I hear people cry about it. ! go there almost weekly, never seen a sick animal, but it could use some cleaning...
thats what this place is!!!! he has great fish and his tanks are always cryatal clear!!!!! the only problem is that his tanks havent been cleaned in about 38 years and that includes gravel vac. but this guy knows his stuff like you wouldnt believe!!!!! i just would hate so see a good place go down because some person has nothing better to do than to complain.

[rocker92]

Huh. My sheltie is named Jasmine. I can certainly believe that dogs were mistreated at a pet store, and considering they're shelties, I'm none too happy :angryfire:

And Rocker, if he isn't cleaning his tanks, I (although it isn't against the law) consider that abusive, too. Could you post a couple pics? Hopefully this is just media talking and I'll have a change of opinion ;)
not trying to bash anyone but you cant go after all petshops that sell dogs just because a few in your area dont take care of their stock.

[petluvr]

Just because the water is clear doesn't mean the water is clean. If he isn't vaccing I would guess that the tanks are FULL of planaria and probably have OTS. Although I must admit that only a dozen or so complaints within the last ten years is a pretty darn good track record and since the humane society did find no wrong doings obviously it can't be that bad.

[red_wall]

I think it's based on someone's perception of what they think is all "icky"
Yeah, the store probably looked somewhat dirty, but you have all of those uptight people who never get their hands dirty and complain about it being a hideous shop.

Not saying I have anything against them, but seriously, you need to be educated enough to understand the difference between 'didn't vacuum the floor in a while' and 'neglect'.

It's just like calling 911 when someone has a controlled fire in their back yard. People have no clue what they're seeing, but they do it for the right reasons. They want to make sure the animals are okay.

[Hairechest]

I wish I had that kind of money to just throw around - make a statement with. Most people who really care about animals don't get huffy, they talk to the person in charge and really get to know what is going on. People who want a newspaper article written about them make a scene. Addressing reality is harder than dressing for work.

[Dwarf Puffers]

not trying to bash anyone but you cant go after all petshops that sell dogs just because a few in your area dont take care of their stock.


Prove me wrong! Take a picture of one/some of his tanks and where the dogs were, and I may agree with you. I just haven't seen any dogs kept in good conditions ever where I've been, always in a 3'x3' cage all day and kennels all night. And they're always wounded from bored, rough playing.

Oh, and did the pet store guy go and get the dogs and cat back? I'd be astonished to see one good, purebred sheltie for 250$, but two shelties and a cat? Something tells me they either weren't purebred or were sold to him very cheaply. My first sheltie, Jesse, had some problems with his testicles, so he was only 300$, but my second, Jasmine, was 500$ (the usual price I've seen for them).

[REDKAHUNA]

OK You may all think I am wrong here but here goes.
Have you ever seen where these fish are pulled from. Most from murky silt laden ponds and rice paddies. I admit others come from clear water streams and beautiful lakes but there is still a load of crap passing by them everyday. Do you guys really think that crystal clear water is perfect? Perfect for you to see the fish but probably not perfect for the fish. I have fish in my shed that will do nothing breeding wise until the water is murky at best. Then they clean and clean a spot to lay. Just like in the wild. Come on guys most of the reasons we put so much time into our tanks is so we can see the pretty fishes.

Lighting is another thing. I do not have lights on all my tanks. I admit I am a bottom dweller fan so I believe not that much light can penetrate 20 feet of water. The fish are happy and content. The lighting again is for us and the plants.

So beat me up if you wish.
Just my thoughts sometimes we overthink things as the intelligent species on this planet.

[Hebily]

What I can't believe is that she turned them over to the humane society! If she cared about them she would have kept them, at least until she could find them GOOD homes. The humane society will euthanize if they can't find a home in a certain amount of time, depending on the area. One by were I used to live was two weeks. The SPCA would be different; they only euthanize if there are behavioral problems. Either way, she obviously didn't care That much. Besides, if conditions were so bad, why not just let the police deal with it?

[bettagurl]

not trying to bash anyone but you cant go after all petshops that sell dogs just because a few in your area dont take care of their stock.

It's not that they are not cared for in the pet shop, though many are not, because if a pet store is willing to buy from a mill, they must not care.

I asked what his supplier is?

[Fla_Larry]

no doubt one of those noob types get their fist dog/cat/fish or whatever, learn a little bit about the maintenance and or care, then they make it their Divine right to haunt the local stores looking for anything they can complain about to "SHOW THEIR SUPERIOR KNOWLEDGE", they are easy to spot especially on the forums, They generally have settled on one breed of some pet, then they make the Brash statements covering all LPS while only seeing the actual problem at one or two stores, so now all Stores are culprits, and abusers etc etc etc.

Geez i have even seen a few ( on a particular forum based in Canada ) that seems have a large group of individuals ( Noob's ) that like to go into the LFS and bait the clerks into giving them wrong answers. Like one Guy goes in and gives the clerk a vial of water and asks if it is OK for fish. ( it was Tap Water ) of course the clerk was not told it was Tap water, just is it ok. AM=0 NO2=0 NO3=3 water is ok per the clerk, of course there was chlorine in it which would have killed the fish. So now the LFS is Black Balled by this group as unknowledgeable.
BTW this guy had been asked to leave this store several times prior to this by his own admission. People like this dont see as they are doing anything wrong doing this.
So now to him ALL stores in this chain are useless, and he has no problems telling anyone that will listen how bad they are, His only retort when you point out his errors in presenting is... so, Prove me wrong. Then complains to the moderator when he was proved wrong, poor baby was being picked on.

Point is you are gonna find those types everywhere, self righteous hypocrites.

[Dwarf Puffers]

OK You may all think I am wrong here but here goes.
Have you ever seen where these fish are pulled from. Most from murky silt laden ponds and rice paddies. I admit others come from clear water streams and beautiful lakes but there is still a load of crap passing by them everyday. Do you guys really think that crystal clear water is perfect? Perfect for you to see the fish but probably not perfect for the fish. I have fish in my shed that will do nothing breeding wise until the water is murky at best. Then they clean and clean a spot to lay. Just like in the wild. Come on guys most of the reasons we put so much time into our tanks is so we can see the pretty fishes.

Lighting is another thing. I do not have lights on all my tanks. I admit I am a bottom dweller fan so I believe not that much light can penetrate 20 feet of water. The fish are happy and content. The lighting again is for us and the plants.

So beat me up if you wish.
Just my thoughts sometimes we overthink things as the intelligent species on this planet.


My fish tend to die when the water gets murky. I doubt that's healthy. And very few fish come from "murky silt laden ponds and rice paddies".

[feemia]

There'll probably be a lot of letters to the editor, for and against, following that article. Since you feel so strongly, you should submit one of your own.

[BreezeRuehls]

Maybe you can work out a deal with him? Like help him scrub the store in exchange for free items, store credit? Since he is an old man, its probably too much work for him. And with the economy the way it is, i bet he cannot afford to hire a cleaner? Might end up benefiting you both......And it never hurts to ask!!!!

[steelhumm]

just one question...sorry as it may not be 100% on topic...but what is the problem with puppy mill dogs? Do they deserve to not be bought and be put down just cause they were bred in a mill?!!?!?! Or does it just sound better to "some" people to say their pooch was bought from "insert reputable breeder name here"?

I have 6 dogs, 3 purebred shephards, a purebred shelty, a pitbull and a catalouan leopard (sp)..ALL bought from a pet shop that sells puppy mill dogs.... if no one buy's em THEY WILL BE KILLED... I'd rather give em a chance and leave the breeder sold over priced dogs to those that like saying where they bought em from.

If I misunderstood I appologize and carry on...lol

[cam191919]

the dogs in mills are kept in horrid conditions and buying puppies from mills is only funding the evil practice

[steelhumm]

and not buying them means a death to the animals... I'd rather save a life. JMO

[bettagurl]

just one question...sorry as it may not be 100% on topic...but what is the problem with puppy mill dogs? Do they deserve to not be bought and be put down just cause they were bred in a mill?!!?!?! Or does it just sound better to "some" people to say their pooch was bought from "insert reputable breeder name here"?

I have 6 dogs, 3 purebred shephards, a purebred shelty, a pitbull and a catalouan leopard (sp)..ALL bought from a pet shop that sells puppy mill dogs.... if no one buy's em THEY WILL BE KILLED... I'd rather give em a chance and leave the breeder sold over priced dogs to those that like saying where they bought em from.

If I misunderstood I appologize and carry on...lol

Puppy mills need to be shut down. And no, they won't be killed, they'll eventually be sold, and if less people buy from mills, the less mills there will be.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2HM8UmHM8Uo
By buying the dogs, you support the mill.
If the shop doesn't sell the puppy, they won't kill it, waste of money, they'll lower the price.
And it's not the puppies themselves, but their parents, stuck in nasty conditions, bred until they die or are rescued, and it is disgusting.
A reputable breeder is not someone selling overpriced dogs, reputable means:
They have great pedigrees on their dogs, going back many generations.
The dogs have had thorough temperament tests.
The dogs have been screened for disease and problems that can be passed to pups.
The dogs are very well conditioned prior to breeding, and are taken expert care of during pregnancy, labor, and the puppies are socialized, trained to an extent, and have health tests before going to pre-arranged homes.
The ***** (female) is not bred more than 3 times in her life, 4 at the MOST.
Not bred before 2-3 years old/same with male.
You get my point? Buying from a good breeder cuts own on the irresponsible breeding of dogs.


So sorry to get off topic, but the issue came up.

[bettagurl]

If you want to save dogs who will really be killed, go to breed rescues or shelters... Many have puppy mill puppies for a much cheaper price.. Since money is the problem.

[Fla_Larry]

Puppy mills need to be shut down. And no, they won't be killed, they'll eventually be sold, and if less people buy from mills, the less mills there will be.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2HM8UmHM8Uo
By buying the dogs, you support the mill.
If the shop doesn't sell the puppy, they won't kill it, waste of money, they'll lower the price.
And it's not the puppies themselves, but their parents, stuck in nasty conditions, bred until they die or are rescued, and it is disgusting.
A reputable breeder is not someone selling overpriced dogs, reputable means:
They have great pedigrees on their dogs, going back many generations.
The dogs have had thorough temperament tests.
The dogs have been screened for disease and problems that can be passed to pups.
The dogs are very well conditioned prior to breeding, and are taken expert care of during pregnancy, labor, and the puppies are socialized, trained to an extent, and have health tests before going to pre-arranged homes.
The ***** (female) is not bred more than 3 times in her life, 4 at the MOST.
Not bred before 2-3 years old/same with male.
You get my point? Buying from a good breeder cuts own on the irresponsible breeding of dogs.


So sorry to get off topic, but the issue came up.

Let me start by saying i respectfully disagree with almost evrything you stated above in practice.

In theory maybe thats the way it works for the respectable breeders you know, however rest assured they are well in the slim minority.
While i would agree puppymills need to be shutdown, what would remain is what actually constitutes a puppy mill, useing your definition above of a respectable breeder that then leaves all the remaining responsible breeders lumped in as a puppy mill operator.

In real life most responsible breeders breed more than 3 to 4 times per Female assumeing she remains healthy and demand presents, the most prolific of which are the small and minature breeders yes read that as Sheltie owners/Breeders, for every reputable breeder one only needs to look in the pet section of your local paper at least twice a year ( if not more) to see the same ad from the same breeders repeated time after time. While it can be also assumed that while the more frequent Breeders may use differant Females In breeding has become a major issue within the industry as a whole and yes that means even your so called reputable breeders. Those particular breeders use a selective approch to keep prices high, due to preferred stock. that does not make them any better, only more unjustifiably expensive. Then in the pinnicle of arrogance, tell evryone else that unless they do it this way, the rest are not much more than puppy mills.

and i dont know what kind of alternate reality you come from, but if a dog is not bought from a puppy mill supplied store then the excess will be destroyed simple economics, all brought about by the only buy from reputable breeders crowd .

Yes it is an inconvienient truth, but the bottom line is not all Pet stores buy from puppy mills as depicted in the posts above, but they do purchese from responsible breeders useing multiple breeding pairs
These breeders also perform regular health checks, proper socialization, Many also have very excellant pedigrees ( may not be best of show winners etc etc) but that should never enter into any equation involving life, well that is in the case of your so called Reputable breeders who regularly put down a dog for nothing more than It is not of a high enough quality to further or represent the blood line.

and as to the line the male is only bred 3 to 4 time
well that must be true because Elvis just told me the same thing last week. Well again maybe not i this reality, but some where, or only for the most elite read that to be expensive with out justification.

Im sure you would love for all that above to all be true, and maybe for a select few breeders it might be. But it in reality is a very select few

[cellodaisy]

Wow. Fla_Larry, I couldn't disagree more. However, it's clear that your mind is made up, so there's no sense wasting anyone's time arguing about it.

I'll just say this: Adopt. For the love of all that is good, people, PLEASE adopt.

[rocker92]

every one is bringing up great points!

i was just in there today. Ed didnt seem too talkitive but oh well. he does have a kid that works for him and he dosent look as old as his age(not saying that late 50s is old) but he doesnt clean his tanks for a reason.......he says that the biomedia has pleanty of food, and that the silt isnt bad for the fish. just like in nature, nobody goes around the lakes and takes out the silt. he has great stock and all my fish come from him. he is a great guy and wants to get kids in to the hobby! he will anwser any Q' you may have and recommend the best product that he has. this is just a guy trying to run a store and he doesnt have the money to put new racks underneath the tanks just because they are rusty.

[Dwarf Puffers]

every one is bringing up great points!

i was just in there today. Ed didnt seem too talkitive but oh well. he does have a kid that works for him and he dosent look as old as his age(not saying that late 50s is old) but he doesnt clean his tanks for a reason.......he says that the biomedia has pleanty of food, and that the silt isnt bad for the fish. just like in nature, nobody goes around the lakes and takes out the silt. he has great stock and all my fish come from him. he is a great guy and wants to get kids in to the hobby! he will anwser any Q' you may have and recommend the best product that he has. this is just a guy trying to run a store and he doesnt have the money to put new racks underneath the tanks just because they are rusty.


No one cleans up the silt? Strong currents move silt, plants absorb it, fresh water streams in from streams or falls in the form of rain, fish can swim AWAY from the area of silt. None of this is possible in an aquarium, besides the plants absorbing it, and I'm guessing he isn't exactly full on plants. Even if he was, water changes are still required, especially in overstocked, messy aquariums.

I for one would never buy a fish from him, as I keep all my tanks clean (well, less often for the endler tank, but that is an anomaly), and OTS would probably kick in and kill his moved fish.

Oh, and rusty metal is weaker than new metal. A 10 gallon tank weighs near to 100 pounds. I wouldn't take the risk.

And as far as him getting kids into fishkeeping, if he never changes his water, I'd prefer if those kids stayed uninformed.

[Rbishop]

Okay, folks. Lets get the thread back on track about the OP's LFS having some cleaning issues and save the pet breeding issues for a more proper forum.

Thanks! :)

[REDKAHUNA]

Whatch the other parameters its not the murkyness killing them. I have 150 tanks I see how fish react when they are in different water. How do you think we get most of these guys to spawn. By dumping completly different water into there fine little tank. It stirs everything up and turns them on. Dirty nasty little fish are dirty birdies.

[Coler]

Okay, folks. Lets get the thread back on track about the OP's LFS having some cleaning issues and save the pet breeding issues for a more proper forum.

Thanks! :)

It should not be necessary to repeat this.

[rocker92]

ah, let it go mods. as long as people dont get too fired up about this i realy dont care. this link was about dogs more that fish. once again aslong as somebody doesnt get too mad/fired up, let it go.:)

EDIT: let them talk about breeding. i dont care!

[Wisegy84]

It sucks that people judge the store before they really find out what is going on. My favorite LFS could probably be a bit cleaner (some algae in tanks, floors a bit dirty, basically normal stuff) but I've only had one fish from there die (it was a cory that died after one day). And even that was over a year ago now.

[Reframer]

I have the same issues with my local lfs. I love the way they keep their fish, but why do they have to sell dogs and cats that obviously came from puppy/kitten mills when we have so many that are waiting at shelters. The one thing I admire about the big store chains is that they offer cats for adoption from local shelter instead of stocking from the puppy/kitten mills.

[Dwarf Puffers]

I have the same issues with my local lfs. I love the way they keep their fish, but why do they have to sell dogs and cats that obviously came from puppy/kitten mills when we have so many that are waiting at shelters. The one thing I admire about the big store chains is that they offer cats for adoption from local shelter instead of stocking from the puppy/kitten mills.


Some chains. The main chain in nova scotia gets theirs from puppy mills.

[Fla_Larry]

[quote]
Originally Posted by Reframer http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/ms_icons_blue/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1890896#post1890896)
I have the same issues with my local lfs. I love the way they keep their fish, but why do they have to sell dogs and cats that obviously came from puppy/kitten mills when we have so many that are waiting at shelters. The one thing I admire about the big store chains is that they offer cats for adoption from local shelter instead of stocking from the puppy/kitten mills.




problem is not so much the stores as the people that buy them ( Pets ), then decide they dont want them or cant keep them , so this then becomes the fault of the LPS and the larger breeders....
Yet another inconvient truth

Me personally i dont buy from stores, every single dog i have had after my first dog King (AKC Reg. Wire Haired Fox Terrier my childhood dog, lost him to old age) has been a rescue.

Mogley & Mahogony ( paired Amer. Rotteilers Lost one to a snake bite, and one to Hip displacia )

Rohan (called him Fluffy ) a 4 yo 180 lb German Rottweiler( never got over the fact he was no lap dog any more, and my greatest heartbreak ) funny how no one kidded him abut his nickname, and his pet Dog Max a Black Lab.

Nikki ( corgi, yeah a bit of a shift there in size because i didnt think i could stand to loose another Rottweiler, and she turned into the third biggest heartbreak, she got loose one day from the wife)

and our current Buster ( Great Dane/Boxer ) Yes he has become my papi all 63 pounds of his goofyness.

All rescues/castoff's and not a bad one in the lot. Their ending up in a shelter was not the fault of any mass breeder or LPS ( Rohan was the sole exception, he came from a "reputable breeder" but he was damaged goods to them , "just to dang big", so was turned into a shelter with injuries, and the breeder refused to pay the bill). His Loss Our Gain.

[cellodaisy]

Kudos to you for all the rescues. However...

Rohan was the sole exception, he came from a "reputable breeder" but he was damaged goods to them , "just to dang big", so was turned into a shelter with injuries, and the breeder refused to pay the bill

...I don't think anyone here would consider those the actions of a respectable breeder. No one is defending such practices.

Puppy mills are at the bottom of the barrel as far as animal welfare is concerned. That doesn't mean that every independent breeder is an angel, but a lot of them do better by their dogs than the mills do.

My understanding is that if you really do it right, you can't make much of a living from breeding dogs. So anyone who breeds or sells dogs in order to make money is probably cutting corners somewhere. I'm not saying every breeder is mistreating their animals, just that it's hard to make much money if you really are treating them well.

Personally, I don't think anyone should be breeding dogs, even as a hobby, when there are so many being killed every day for lack of a home, but that's a somewhat separate issue and one on which I think reasonable people can disagree. Breeding dogs for profit, though, just seems downright wrong.

(Flaming in 3... 2... 1... )

[kjr928]

Sorry, but I believe any pet stores willing to sell puppies are guilty.

We can thank all the pet stores who sell puppies for puppy mills and the horrible suffering that goes on at them. Pet stores know full well what's going on but the do it anyway because they do not care.

Two thumbs down. I hope they close his shop.

[Fla_Larry]

well it seems the dust has finally settled on this issue, but it did bring up some interesting points...many simply do not know what a puppy mill is, so they lump nearly all breeders under one large umbrella, and call them a puppy mill, Why? spite? ignorance? the effect is the same, they dont like it so no one else should be allowed to do it.
Many ( i will refer to them as activists ) additionally intentionaly keep the lines blurred, that way they cannot be proved wrong, and they can make any statement and hold it up as fact totally berift of any true logic or fact.

All mass breeders are puppy mills, and all pet stores purchese from these breeders so all pet stores support puppy mills so all pet stores should be shut down.
Simple and tidy
totally incorrect, but simple and tidy none the less.

And none should take this as all pet stores only buy from licensed distributers, im sure some do not.

but it is a simple enough task to find out, ask them for the paper work and see if the distributer is in fact licensed.

A small amount of research yeilded the following link: http://www.canismajor.com/dog/puppymil.html
very good reading, it does however contain very few pictures so i expect a few will simply skip reading it. It is however very enlightening,

a few snippets:

From the Article noted above...

Twenty years ago, people knew that a "puppy mill" was a substandard kennel where unhealthy, overbred dogs were kept in horrendous conditions.

Today it's not so easy. In the last decade of the 20th Century, activist groups began to broaden the term to cover just about any kennel that they didn't like. As a result, commercial kennels and hobby breeders with more than an arbitrary number of dogs or litters have become targets for anti-breeding groups that lobby for laws to restrict these law-abiding operations.

These organizations stir up public support for breeding restrictions and high license fees by deliberately blurring the lines between responsible breeding operations and real puppy mills. They use emotional rhetoric and pictures of dirty kennels and sickly dogs to imply that most or all breeders will subject their dogs to abusive lives unless they are regulated.


A fair enough assesment i would think but as the saying goes Wait Theres more



Additional text from noted Link:


So, how do we evaluate those bills and make sure that substandard kennels are cleaned up? First we have to define "puppy mill." Is it . . .

A dirty, trashy place where one or several breeds of dogs are kept in deplorable conditions with little or no medical care and puppies are always available?
Any high-volume kennel?
A clean place where several breeds of dogs are raised in adequate conditions and the breeder usually or always has puppies for sale?
A place where a single breed of dog is raised in acceptable conditions and puppies are usually or often available?
A place where lots of dogs are raised, where breeding is done solely for financial gain rather than protection of breed integrity, and where puppies are sold to brokers or to pet stores?
The answer depends on who you ask. . . .
A hobby breeder dedicated to promoting and protecting a particular breed or two might consider all of the above kennels to be puppy mills. Animal shelter and rescue workers who deal daily with abandoned, neglected, or abused dogs might agree. Operators of clean commercial kennels, licensed by the US Department of Agriculture or by state law, will strongly disagree, for the very mention of "puppy mill" damages their business and that of the pet stores they deal with.
John Q Dog Owner probably thinks of puppy mills as those places exposed on 20/20, Dateline, or Geraldo or pictured on fundraising pamphlets by the Humane Society of the US and other animal rights charities. He has seen the cameras pan back and forth over trash, piles of feces, dogs with runny noses and oozing sores, dogs crammed into shopping carts and tiny coops, rats sharing dirty food bowls and dry dishes. He has seen the kennel owner captured on tape, dirty, barely articulate, and ignorant of dog care, temperament, genetic health, or proper nutrition. But is the television crew simply seeking the sensational and applying these appalling conditions to the entire dog producing industry? Are the photos on the fundraising appeals accurate depictions of the majority of high volume kennels or are they used to generate disgust for breeders and dollars for treasuries?
To be clear, we at Dog Owner's Guide believe that kennel conditions and dog health, not numbers or profit motive, determine whether a kennel should be called a puppy mill.



The last line really says it all,

If we where to look strictly to the governing bodys we would be dealing with organisations such as AKC ( in the US ) and the British Kennel Club,
in the above mentined article you will find links to AKC and their requirements. The BKC on the other hand is the oldest Kennel club in the world and is THE governing body for the UK note:


From Wikipedia:
The Kennel Club ("KC") is a kennel club (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kennel_club) based in London (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London) and Aylesbury, England (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/England).
Founded on 4 April (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/April_4) 1873 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1873), the club is the oldest of the world’s all-breed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breed) kennel clubs[citation needed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed)]. It is the governing body for dogs in the UK and its primary objective is 'to promote in every way, the general improvement of dogs'. It was the first official registry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Registry) of purebred (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purebred) dogs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog) in the world, and its annual registrations in the early 2000s average 280,000[


This is the same kennel club many aspire to and arguably the world nexus of "respectable breeders"

Well maybe not, these type are more concerned with the perfection of the breed standard to the exclusion of health and well being of the very animals they espouse to care so very much for:
Link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedigree_Dogs_Exposed
The standards they require all "respectable" breeders to breed to
after reading only half the article, i had to stop, Their practices are truly disgusting, and all done under the guise of "responsible breeding"
Thank goodness our own AKC does not operate that cruely.
But they ( AKC are certianly no angels when it comes to " Breed Purity"

So next time you pass that Shelter in favor of your neighborhood breeder, remember what Those breeders are all about.

Rescue that dog ( or cat )

Oh yeah and remember the Pet stores that sell dogs and cats primarily deal with breeders that have to jump through federal hoops that the "neighborhood breeder" dont .

It is the sanctmonious / activist types that in their ignorance of what and how the responsible "Mass" breeders operate and would paint them black as the scourge of petdom, where in reality it is the commercial ( yes the neighborhood types) that typically falsify and outright lie to your face as you adopt that " perfect dog" from that "respectable" breeder whose only claim to respectablity is " they dont do it for profit", of course not, it is to expensive.

[cellodaisy]

well it seems the dust has finally settled on this issue, but it did bring up some interesting points...

I don't think the dust will EVER settle on this issue!

many simply do not know what a puppy mill is, so they lump nearly all breeders under one large umbrella, and call them a puppy mill, Why? spite? ignorance? the effect is the same, they dont like it so no one else should be allowed to do it.

This seems to be the core of what is making you upset---that we're lumping everything but the backyard breeder into one category and calling them "puppy mills." I don't think that's what we've been saying. It's certainly not what I've personally been saying. No one is arguing that every backyard breeder is blameless, or innately superior to a larger operation. You seem very upset that other people are making generalizations, but you also seem to be making quite a few yourself.


Many ( i will refer to them as activists ) additionally intentionaly keep the lines blurred, that way they cannot be proved wrong, and they can make any statement and hold it up as fact totally berift of any true logic or fact.

You are doing some "lumping" of your own here and it is just as unfair as what you are accusing us of. This goes along with the line in your signature, "Animal Rights Activists - just another way to say Terrorist." Are there crazy people who do crazy things in the name of animal rights? Absolutely. Crazy people do crazy things in the name of just about everything---religion, security, "family values," etc. Are all (or even most of) those who stand up for animal rights terrorists? Absolutely not. "Terrorist" has become a buzzword that people like to throw at each other, and I find it deeply offensive that you would apply it to all animal rights activists everywhere.

All mass breeders are puppy mills, and all pet stores purchese from these breeders so all pet stores support puppy mills so all pet stores should be shut down.
Simple and tidy
totally incorrect, but simple and tidy none the less.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I object to the sale of puppies or kittens anywhere, regardless of the size of the operation. In my opinion, there are far too many dogs and cats euthanized every day for anyone to be breeding them intentionally. Unless the health of one of my own pets is depending on the purchase of some certain item and I have no other choice, I will not patronize a store that sells dogs or cats. Period. I don't care where they get them.

So next time you pass that Shelter in favor of your neighborhood breeder...

Rescue that dog ( or cat )

I guess that's one thing we can agree on.

[swinneyw]

the woman that complained probably has a dirty house

[Fla_Larry]

:rofl::rofl:

ahh cmon now, we dont know that for sure, that doesn't stop them, but that is expected.


CelloDaisy:
I don't think the dust will EVER settle on this issue!


Point taken, and correctly so.

And dont get me wrong, i have nothing against those that support and defend Animal welfare be they activists or not, animal rights on the other hand is way beyond the realm of reasoning.

Your stance to do no business with any shop that carries pups of kits is.. your stance, and nothing wrong with that and is admiral, it is however your stance.
Animal Rights activists on the other hand stance is not only do they find that repulsive, they believe it is equally repulsive for even a blind person to own a seeing eye dog ( a DIRECT QUOTE FROM Peta BTW )

My Ire as you put it and that of many others that truly care should be raised towards those that hide behind this "caring" front, while at the same time they Kill dogs and Cats that are easily adoptable, just because they do not wish to expend a single penny of their Ad budget towards animal care.

Or by those that think ALL Breeders are misbegotten dregs of humanity especially the back yard breeders ( link avail on request )

Now don't take this as a personal affront on your beliefs, i would more peg you as an animal welfare type of person, and none of this is meant in a personal manner, only to educate, and expose just like the animal rights types do, they just don't like it done back at them. And sometimes that means ya have to thump some on the head and say, wake up smell the bacon, look at what they are really doing.
allowed to run unchecked these types will kill the entire pet industry. Yes that means our fish as well.

How many are even aware that a well meaning group attempted to pass a bill to prevent the sale of certain types of fish ( Arowana's) because of their expansion nature. When finally in the hands of the politicians this bill had by then morphed into a bill that will prevent the importation, sale and distribution of all non native tropical fish in the US.
in it's strictest interpretation only one fresh water fish would be allowed.
of course we could take to raising carp, and bass etc those are native.

This bill very nearly passed on it's first attempt, and it is not dead yet.

Can anyone imagine the effect this would have on our aquarium hobby?
it would be total decimation. But hey the person(s) responsible will be happy, of course they are not aquarists either. This way they do not have to walk by the disgusting tank displays enroute to buy.... well still not sure what they are after in a pet store, they sure dont like anything in them.
Oh thats right, they get their live stock from Mail Order, you know FISH FARMS, hey everyone knows fish where meant to fly and take OTR trips.
and it is no big deal that fish are raised in the very conditions so many vigorously denounced and label as "Puppy Mills".


So again, dont take anything said here personally, just for the sake of the animals, stand up for their WELFARE leave the rights issues to the Scientifically Illiterate ( a direct quote from Greenpeace co founder ) referring to Greenpeace's animal rights activist stance.

your actions to not do business with a pet store will have little to no effect, instead get out there, and expose the puppy mills ( be very sure of where you tread there however as the legal "mass breeders" can, should and will file legal action for any libelous statements.

I have personally caused two puppy farms ( both in NH btw Exeter, and Hampton Falls ) to go out of business, i have also seen the extremes some mass breeders ( Billerica Ma, Springfield Ma, Melbourne Fla, PalmBay Fl) will go to to assure the pets avail for shops, notice no where did i say all mass breeders of all shops, there will always be those that slip through the cracks, but overall the mass breeders have a far Superior track record in animal welfare than most Local shelters ( short of some no kill shelters ) and nearly all national orgs ( HSUS , Peta, ELF, ALF etc etc etc)

I have also seen the effects of AKC and BK Breed standards enforcement. and watch as perfectly health dogs are culled ( that would be, put down for the squeamish or PC types ).
And yes i have also worked with a few back yard breeders, they happen to breed and raise German Shepard's for many town and county LEO's
These same dogs per AKC standards would be "Culled" just due to their aggressive nature alone, but a desired trait for what they are bred to do.
But still lumped in as a Puppy Mill or the even lower species, back yard breeders.
Apparently if you do not have a wall of awards, you are not fit to Breed dogs, even accidentally with out being labeled a menace to society

Today it is dogs and and Cats, tomarrow FISH and birds, unchecked that is how it will go.

[Rbishop]

Okay, folks. Lets get the thread back on track about the OP's LFS having some cleaning issues and save the pet breeding issues for a more proper forum.

Thanks! :)


Last time folks..thanks.

[cellodaisy]

Last time folks..thanks.
Apologies. I though the OP had said go ahead. Shutting up now.