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View Full Version : Fish-in cycle near end, dead fish & sick fish.



wakingupnow
03-28-2009, 1:05 AM
Hello. I apologise if this question is rather lenglthy, but hopefully getting the full picture would help you to help me. :)

I'm still pretty new to the aquarium world and I ignorantly bought a 20 gallon long with too many fish that some didn't get along and that will grow out of the tank. Sad, right? I take the total blame, though I thought I asked all the right questions..Boy was I wrong.

The tank is in the last stages of cycling (Ammonia-0, Nitrite-under .25ppm, Nitrate-5mg/L and pH-6.8) and some of the fish were added later on. I do 25% water changes every day, testing for Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrate and pH before hand and I use Stress Coat Plus to condition the water. This tank was set up on the 10th of February of this year.

The fish that inhabit my 20g tank now are 6 Tiger Barbs, 1 supposedly Common Pleco, 1 Silver Molly, 1 Marigold Platy and 3 Mystery Snails. I currently have 2 Fancy Guppies in a make-shift tank with a bubbler that I do water changes on every day. This is because my 8 gallon is cycling (fishless) and the Tiger barbs in the 20 gallon ripped their fins to shreds.

Fish that have passed on that once inhabited the 20g tank are: 2 Tiger barbs, 2 Black Lyretail Mollies, 1 Marigold Platy and 1 Mystery snail and I will explain all of their symptoms before their death.

Tiger barbs: One of them I had from the beginning which died had either nipped fins (only 2 barbs in the tank at the time) or fin rot for about 2 weeks then suddenly died during high ammonia spikes. Go figure. The second one was a larger Tiger barb which I bought to make a school of 5. It's behaviour was normal for the first few days and then became lethargic and kept to itself. It had no appetite and was very thin. Before it's demise it didn't have enough strength to swim and layed on the bottom of the tank and died.

Black Lyretail Mollies: One of them was in the first group and was so beautiful. Blackie was the head of the tank and no one messed with her. One day I found a 2 and a half inch white worm like 'thing' coming out of her vent. At this point she was very vulnerable and the Tiger barbs began to bite this 'thing' and pull it. She died about 1 hour later on the 1st of March. The second Molly I bought about a week after Blackie's death to cheer up my Silver male Molly (Snowy). Inky first had some sort of mouth fungus and at that time I was treating the tank for parasite (9th March) because of Blackie. Inky's gills were abnormally white (well it looked abnormal to me) as well. After treatment with Parasite Clear (Tank Buddies), her supposed mouth fungus was gone. A few days ago Inky's belly was slightly swollen so I assumed she was pregnant. As the day went on, her belly got even larger, so much so that her vent stretched to the point where it was one large white patch. A few hours before her demise, she was trying to swim to the top of the tank, but no matter how much she tried she inevitably fell back down to the bottom as if she was filled with something heavy. She died on the 24th of March.

My Marigold Platies came first and together. While now the larger one (Biggie) is doing very well, Smalls began to have symptoms much like Inky, the Molly. One difference is that his stomach did not swell at all. Smalls died at approximately 2:28 am the 25th of March.

The Mystery Snail I had just bought with the other 3 on the 26th of February. I am sure that it was indeed alive and it died 2 days later.


Now, getting to my questions if you are not old and dead by now from the long introduction.

My Silver male Molly has the same symptoms as some of my other passed fish. He sits at the bottom of the tank in one of the corners usually for most of the day. The ridge of his caudal fin, right at the end looked foggy/whitish almost, but dissapeared after 2 days. What is wrong with him and what can I do to help him get better?

I am worried about my tap water and dissolved metals. I read somewhere that brown stains on fake plants can be a sign of iron or other types of metals being dissolved in the water. My main source for my tank is my tap, along with bottled water to maintain a good pH and kH (I hope I'm getting that right at least). Could this be the culprit for the deaths and sickness even with Stress Coat Plus? If this makes any difference, the tank water smells very earthy or like wet dirt.

My Tiger Barbs seem to be doing so so. I have 2 that are just over 1 half inch, 2 that are about 1 inch and a half and 1 that is in between the two. They all are active during feeding, but when it comes to their behavior and color, I am worried. One of the smaller ones does not hand around the others almost all of the time. Sometimes I will see 2 of the smaller ones under the water fall filter. Where their stripes are supposed to be black, often turn an aqua color. Also, I will see the mid-sized and one of the smaller TB's doing their dominance dance constantly with their stripes being aqua in color. Is this normal and if not, what can I do?

I know I have more questions, but I'm terrified that my question is too long already, so I will keep those for another thread.

Please, if there is anything that I might have missed that you need to know, tell me.

Thank you very very much.
Jess

Hebily
03-28-2009, 1:15 AM
how long do you leave your tank lights on?

wakingupnow
03-28-2009, 1:22 AM
I leave them on anywhere from 10-14 hours a day.

Hebily
03-28-2009, 1:31 AM
your 'brown stain' is probably diatoms. 14 hrs shouldn't be enough to overly stress your fish, but I would reccomend no more than 12, closer to 8 is better. other than that, all I can say is next time you know not to use fish to cycle... you seem to be figuring things out alot faster than most, and it sounds like your LFS (local fish store) has fungus problems. although, the "white thing" was prolly just white poop. white poop indicates some definate problems, but I can't tell you what. People will be along that know alot more about all this than I do.

excuzzzeme
03-28-2009, 1:49 AM
Sounds like your fish had dropsy or culminaris.

Ammonia, chlorine, and excessively high or suddenly changing PH can cause gills to lose coloring.

As Hebily stated brown stains are called diatoms and usually found in new tanks, excess food, excess phosphorus. Too much light is usually more associated with green algae.

Hebily
03-28-2009, 1:53 AM
hmm. makes sense... that whole photosynthesis thing... lol

deeleywoman
03-28-2009, 2:37 AM
hun, i don't know what the problems are cuz i'm a newbie, but my heart breaks for you and your fish. i'm glad you're smarter than most people who just walk into a store and buy whatever looks pretty, and will know better next time.

*hugs*

7itanium
03-28-2009, 3:16 AM
my 2 cents....

It is likely that fish are dying/sick because of the stress from the fish-in cycle... fish can show signs of gill damage months later in some cases and just drop dead

are you using a good water conditioner to remove chlorine?

also.. that common pleco is gonna get massive-- might wanna consider rehoming him/upgrading to a 55g+ ASAP

it is good that you are doing frequent water changes during the cycle.. but at this point (you are starting to show nitrates) it will only be necessary to do a water change if you notice the levels nearing danger

too many water changes CAN cause stress to already-stressed fish.. especially if a proper conditioner isnt used (I dont know if this is the case.. but a possibility).. now that doesnt mean that water changes are a bad thing.. they are almost always a good thing.. unless they are either done wrong (IE proper conditioner).. or your fish are already overstressed

make sure that your water conditioner removes chloramine, and heavy metals.. NOT JUST CHLORINE

Rbishop
03-28-2009, 8:09 AM
I would lose the tiger barbs if you really want the mollies...

wakingupnow
03-28-2009, 11:36 AM
Thanks for more answers everyone.

7itanium, I use Stress Coat Plus as a water conditioner. It removes chlorine, chloramines and detoxifies heavy metals it says and it also gives fish a artificial slime coating.

Oh man, I really feel bad about Unbar the Pleco. The pet store I got him from doesn't refund fish or snails even if they are alive unfortunately which really makes me mad considering the employee told me he would only grow to his environment. I'm beginning to dislike that place, but it's truly the best on the island. So my next step is a larger tank for him.

I did a water changes yesterday because some Nitrites were still there. It wasn't 0.25ppm, but it wasn't 0 either.

One difference in the water change I did, was instead of using City tap water, I used my grandfathers well water. The pH was high(7.2+), so I mixed it part bottled water. Even then I still use the stress coat plus.

Hebily and excuzzzeme, what can I do about these diatoms? I have never taken out the plants and scrubbed them because I didn't want to take away any good bacteria for the cycle. Plus the brown stains are mainly on one of the broad leaved fake plants. Should I take them out and give 'em a good old scrubbing?


Oh crap, I forgot to ask one of the most important questions! What is the most effective treatment for Dropsy and/or Culminaris?

Thanks again everyone. :)

wakingupnow
03-29-2009, 1:18 PM
Update:

Since using the Well water, my Silver Molly is doing much better.

Should I go ahead and use the Tank Buddies Fungus Clear that I bought yesterday anyway?


Thanks. :)

bushwhacker
03-29-2009, 8:07 PM
;eave the diatoms alone cut down your feeding and they will go away on they own

wakingupnow
03-30-2009, 1:26 PM
;eave the diatoms alone cut down your feeding and they will go away on they own

Okay, I will leave the diatoms, but I noticed yesterday that one of my Tiger Barbs was showing the same symptoms that the other passed fish had, so I made the decision to add Fungus Clear Tank Buddies.

I have a question though.

When taking carbon out of those filter cartridges for sump filters, do you have to take every single little tiny piece of carbon out or most of it will do? What about old carbon?

Hebily
03-31-2009, 12:54 PM
I'm not sure what you are asking about the carbon. The diatoms aren't hurting anything except the tank's appearance. They are actually helping remove wastes. As overfeeding may be contributing to the bioload, you want to make sure that your fish eat everything you give them w/i a few minutes. As everything gets more stable, and your cycle completes, the diatomes should go away on their own. If not, you either need to feed less or do more frequent water changes. IME, as long as you equalize temp, and condition properly, frequent water changes are less stressful than large water changes. Do they add sulfur to your city water? I know some places use it instead of or along with chlorine, and I'm not sure what effect it would have on fish; I imagine it wouldn't help.

alfbennett
03-31-2009, 1:50 PM
I am new to FW, but in a marine tank, diatomes are the first sign that your tank is aging well (there is a whole algae cycle diatomes, hair, bubble). If you continue to care for your tank, the diatomes will take care of themselves and go away.

Hebily
03-31-2009, 4:27 PM
it's pretty much the same in fresh. Diatomes/algae indicate a healthy tank, but people don't like to look at them...

wakingupnow
03-31-2009, 5:27 PM
Well, I added the Fungus Clear not for the diatoms, I understand that now, but for the fish. As I said before, my Tiger barb was acting very sick and had the same symptoms as my Platy that died a week or so back. It couldn't swim upwards and was laying on the bottom of the tank. That was Sunday when I added it and now he is still swimming slightly abnormal, but is doing better.

I was asking about taking out the carbon because the medication says to take it out of the filter before adding the meds. I just wanted to know if every single piece of coal in the filter needs to come out or if most of it is okay.

Reframer
03-31-2009, 5:50 PM
Mouth fungus isn't really fungus, it is bacterial infection caused by flex bacteria. If that is what it is, it will cause death within a few days.
I am much more worried about parasites, I would get jungle brand antiparasite food and follow directions. Also, aquarium salt and melafix can do a lot of good when you aren't sure exactly what is going on.

Hebily
04-01-2009, 11:51 AM
The charcoal absorbs chemicals. That's why it's good. That's also why it's bad when you are medicating. The more that remains, the lower the effective dose of meds for the same volume dosed.

You have a sump on a 20gal? are you sure?

wakingupnow
04-01-2009, 12:29 PM
*Scratches head*

Well, I guess it isn't a sump. I'm not sure, but it's a waterfall (hang on back) Tetra brand thingy-mer-bob.

I guess I never really looked at what a real sump filter is because my dad always used to call the waterfall ones sumps. lol


The charcoal absorbs chemicals. That's why it's good. That's also why it's bad when you are medicating. The more that remains, the lower the effective dose of meds for the same volume dosed.

You have a sump on a 20gal? are you sure?

alfbennett
04-01-2009, 12:36 PM
I guess I never really looked at what a real sump filter is

A sump would be like a 2nd tank ususally kept out of site. Water is skimmed off the display tank and into the sump. The sumps sole purpose is to biologically recondition the water. In SW sumps generall contain a deep (verry deep like 6+ inches) of live sand for a large anoxic filter, as well in some cases as more traditional biofilter media, or plants.

Water is taken from the main tank, and is run throug the sump which is optimized for bio-filtering, then back up to the display tank.

This is a whole nother subject which can take months to read into and understand completely.

In general sumps are used to filter much larger volumes of water than a 20 gallon tank.

wakingupnow
04-01-2009, 12:40 PM
Ahh thanks. Well it's definitely not a sump filter then! Sorry about that. :uhoh:

Hebily
04-01-2009, 1:30 PM
I don't really know anything about HOB's... I've always either used eclipse systems or cansiters... removing charcoal is easy... is it built in to the filter pad? if so, you can replace the whole unit with a different type pad that doesn't have charcoal, but you need to be careful, because you might have most of your bacteria in your filter pad...

alfbennett
04-01-2009, 1:36 PM
In filters with seperate bio and charcoal filters. the sole purpose of the carchoal filter is useually mechanical and chemical filtration. The bio-media is kept seperate. Charcoal is only good for 3-4 weeks tops in good water conditions so those cartridges are meant to be changed regularly.

Reframer
04-01-2009, 1:36 PM
*Scratches head*

Well, I guess it isn't a sump. I'm not sure, but it's a waterfall (hang on back) Tetra brand thingy-mer-bob.

I guess I never really looked at what a real sump filter is because my dad always used to call the waterfall ones sumps. lol

That is a Tetra brand power filter. All you need to do is buy the charcoal filter pads (the blue ones) at Walmart or something and replace them back to back next to the bio pad. Never replace the white or black bio pads.

wakingupnow
04-01-2009, 2:39 PM
That is a Tetra brand power filter. All you need to do is buy the charcoal filter pads (the blue ones) at Walmart or something and replace them back to back next to the bio pad. Never replace the white or black bio pads.

What sucks is we don't have a wal-mart here or anything like that. The LFS I go to called Modernistic (best on the island) only sells the bio bags, so I always have 2 in the filter (one old and one new) and when I medicate, I cut the bag open and try to get as much of the carbon as possible.

I think I'm going to rinse then in tank water though, because they are dutty.

wakingupnow
04-01-2009, 3:40 PM
:eek3:Oh my.

I just did my first ever cleaning of the filter and a gallon of tank water must have no been enough.

There was this white film inside the filter and oh my goodness the plastic bit with the teeth to catch gunk was so full!

When I cut the filter back on, a bunch of that white gunk came pouring into the tank. What can I do about that? Should I just clean the filter again during my next water change and eventually it will get better?

alfbennett
04-01-2009, 3:47 PM
I am sorry, you just stepped beyond my realm of experience. I really can't think of what the white film would be.

Reframer
04-01-2009, 5:40 PM
You don't want to clean too much of the filter at once, and it really shouldn't be too clean because you need all that good bacteria in there. The film might be bacteria or hard water deposits.
Anyhow, go to Walmart or pet whatever and order them online if you can or else you will just have to get a new filter from your local pet store.

wakingupnow
04-02-2009, 12:13 PM
I got some more filter cartridges, but I could only find the Biobags by Whisper for my 10 gallon filter.

The ones I got for my larger filter are Tetra carbon filters, but the biobags have carbon in them too.

I'm going to swap out the oldest cartridges in them, but not yet because I don't know if I should re-treat my tank because 2 of my tiger barbs has dropsy.

fl4ian
04-07-2009, 5:01 PM
any updates on this?

wakingupnow
04-12-2009, 1:54 PM
Yes, I got some updates.

The cycle is done and aside from a few very dear Tiger barbs that have Dropsy and are in a hospital tank, the 20 gallon is doing well.

I think finally figuring out what it was got me to the conclusion of isolating sick fish. Since coming in contact with the sick fish's body and poop can spread it I've been doing extra gravel vaccings.

No other fish have gotten sick and all the water parameters are good.

Thanks for the help everyone. It's much appreciated. :)