View Full Version : wet/dry
Hi:
I have a 75 gal tank, it has been running since july, I went through all the cycling, now my nitrates went way up to over 80ppm. I called my lfs and they have no idea why they are so high, they sold me phos x to put in the filter which Iam running a cascade 1500, I have only 5 fish in this tank, two misc. bettas, a frog fish and six line grouper, and a dog face puffer. my ammoia is 0, nitrites 0 but the nitrates are really high80 ppm or more. I have done repeatedly partial water changes. Still up.
Actually what I wanted to find out was your opnions on running a wet/dry filter. I went to another lfs and was told it is becuz of the filteration on the tank.
Corax
11-22-2003, 12:31 PM
And they would be correct. Wet/dry filters are notorius for creating nitrate problems. Bio-Wheel filters will do the same thing. Lose the wet dry, add a DSB, you'll be far better off..
well I didnt have a wet/dry filter till today just payed over 400.00 to try and save my tank and my sanity. I am totally lost as to what to do. I have to fish stores totally contradicting each other.
fish stores = out to sell you that worthless $400 wet dry and could care less how many fish you kill cuz they can just sell you more.
The most stable and most effective way of keeping saltwater is with what is known as the Berlin Method. This consists of Livesand, Liverock and a great deal of circulation. The sand and rock take care of everything you need. External filtration, be that a canister, a wet-dry or whatever are not needed and usually just hinder matters. If that wet-dry is unopened, take it back.. If it is opened, put it on ebay..
Tell me the contents and layout of your tank... Got liverock? Got livesand? Got crush coral with an undergravel filter? There are lots of ways to set up a tank, but only a few that won't drive you insane...
3 steps to happiness:
1.) Panic...
2.) Now stop...
3.) Grab some of my Kool-Aid and let me show you the light =)
It's really very simple to get a stable tank going, and throwing $400 filters at it AINT the way to go... First let's look at your fish:
two misc. bettas - Get large, 8" at least.. Ok, but........
a frog fish - Stays small, but negates your chances at ever keeping smaller fish.
six line grouper - I could be mistaken, but I think these guys get about 12" long.
a dog face puffer - Gets like 15" long! Thats a big fish...
Basically, your tank is going to explode from all those fish. The bio-load that group is going to make is going to cause you endless headaches in the very near future. Thin that herd down. The only ones you can responsibley keep in a 75 would be the bettas and the frog fish.. Both the grouper and the puffer get far too large to be comfortable in a tank that size. If you want a predator, then consider a Volitan Lion.. On a side note, that grouper get UGLY as it becomes an adult.. A dull brown color, oh fun..... My LFS is waiting for one they took in as a mercy case, to die. No one will buy it and they can't put anything in with it.. It will never leave that store unfortunately. I call him Glub. Spare yourself this grief, do the right thing early.
The 80ppm of nitrate is the beginning of that headache. Nitrates are the enevitable end of the nitrogen cycle. Amoonia becomes nitrite becomes nitrate, that's just how it works..
Phosphate remover will not help with nitrates, that's a waste of money and effort. Nitrates will leave your tank in 1 of 3 ways:
1.) in a bucket after being siphoned
2.) in a bucket after macro algae has been pruned from the tank (this is called nutrient exportation and is a wonderful way to do it if you can get the algae growing nicely..)
3.) by being consumed by the bacteria that lives in a deep sand bed (DSB)
If you don't wanna be an active participant in the removal, then #3 is your only option.
I know you don't wanna hear that your fish are too much and I know you don't wanna hear that you are indeed doing it <gasp> wrong, but these are the realities that you must face if you want your tank to be a happy, healthy environment for your fish, and a source of pleasure, instead of pain, for you..
Welcome to the salty side =)
P.S. Tell the shop that sold you that motley crue of fish for a 75 that I am gravely disappointed in them.. That's like selling you an Oscar for a 10g. They should know better.
dward254
11-22-2003, 10:37 PM
I knew there was a reason that I loved this forum-HONESTY.
Thank-you.
Corax
11-22-2003, 11:28 PM
If I lied, patted him on the head and said "yer doing it exactly right, keep it up!" Then how do you answer the posts of "why are my fish all dying?" in a few months? Nope, harsh brutal honesty is the only way to get a point across. I'm bad for being a jerk about it sometimes, but I try to be close to factual at least =)
I appreciate your honesty, I just wish that the lfs would had of practiced it 5 months ago. I do have about 50 lbs of live rock and about 2 inches of crushed coral. I have done water changes, like 3 of them in the last week. I did bring the nitrate down to about 20ppm. I also realizesd I should probably posted this in the newbies because I dont really know anything about this. I guess I went into saltwater ignorant. not once but twice. my tank was so nice for the first three months I went back and bought a second tank and now I have more problems than not. Any help is appreciated.
Corax
11-23-2003, 11:28 AM
aww, yer gonna be just fine now that I gotcha =)
That liverock is great news, it will be far less difficult to get where you wanna be since you already have it. Adding a large amount of liverock to an existing tank is tricky, count yer blessings there..
The crushed coral is NOTORIUS for harboring crud and facilitating nitrates. You will want to replace it with play sand from a local home center. If you can get it, the brand Southdown is WONDERFUL for your tank. It is a calcium based sand that will help your chemistry. If you can't, then plain silica playsand will do the job as well, just with no chemistry benefits. Also, if you just went out and threw down $400 for a wet/dry, then buying some aragonite sand from the LFS might not be a huge deal to you. The stuff is like $25 per 25lb bag and you'l need enough for a 4" layer of it. Southdown is the EXACT same stuff, cept it's sold in a hardware store for $4.00 per 50lb bag... Marketing guys, go figure =)
Now, once you get all this play sand, adding it to the tank is the next step. You'll have to be careful here, cuz you can't just scoop all your crushed coral out at once cuz it contains a great deal of your biological filtration at this point. What you wanna do is get several pairs of panty hose and cut em into 6" sections... I prefer the nude kind myself, but you might wana use black, I'll leave that choice up to you =) Then, you wanna start scooping up the crushed coral and tying it up in the panty hose sections. This will allow you to move it around easily. I would start with about 25% of the tank and remove the crushed coral and replace it with playsand. Once the playsand is in place, crame those crushed doral beanbags down into it. This will help seed the sand with the living crud from the coral. Move the beanbags daily, so you get a good spread. Repeat that process bi-weekly until you have 100% sand. Then, go to your LFS and purchase enough livesand to lay down a 1" layer on top of your play sand. This will greatly increase the bio-diversity of your sand bed... Bio-diversity is important cuz it gives you a larger varitey of critters in the sand. This will bring your DSB to 5" which is just about perfect.
I hope you will consider what I said about the fish. I know they look great right now, but they will quickly outgrow your tank and problems will occur.
llebcire
11-23-2003, 12:07 PM
Wow! Quite informative...as you know, Corax, you lured me into this thread :D
I think I will start to do just what you are recommending...and you know 'll be at the hardware store today anyway looking for some PVC...
I would assume that the wet/dry will hafta be run until the dsb matures...but what if you used both? Just curious...
Corax
11-23-2003, 12:50 PM
As you add the DSB, you can begin pulling the bio-balls out. This will force an expansion of the bacteria in the tank. Running both is not something I'd do. All you need is the liverock, DSB and lots of powerheads for circulation. You might wanna consider converting the wet-dry over to be a sump. Or even add some lighting and turn it into a refugium.
llebcire
11-23-2003, 1:27 PM
Originally posted by Corax
You might wanna consider converting the wet-dry over to be a sump. Or even add some lighting and turn it into a refugium.
I think I will work towards that in the next few months.
Thanks Corax, for your help, Im going to to the hardware store tomorrow to see if they have what you have suggested. I do have a powerhead running. I also have an aquaclear 200 which I was running before I purchased the wet/dry. As far as my fish go, I really hate to part with them, I have become very attached to them, but now hubby said they have to go. Well gotta do what ya gotta do. I have lost so many fish I just hate to part with the rest. But anyhow, I will do as you suggested and hope for the best. Now about pulling out the bio balls should I start doing that now, the filter has only been running for a day. orshould I just ditch it all together and just run the cascade and the powerhead. I also have a uv sterilizer o the tank, but I unplugged it becuz I was told not to run it until the wet/dry was running as my biofilter, Which should be in about 3 months.
The bio-ball comment was for llibcire, not you =) His wet-dry is established and must be removed slowly or else the tank will crash.
When your conversion is complete, your tank will consists of liverock, livesand and powerheads. No external filtration is required. You can add a protein skimmer if you want, but a lot of people don't bother. I do =) Take that wet-dry back and get a refund. The uv is also a liability to your tank, as it will kill any microcritters taht pass through it. No so bad in a fish only tank, but for reef tanks or anything with filter feeders, a definite no-no.