filter crash, any suggestions?

[Dahlia]

Well, in conjunction with my "feeding mistake" post, I do seem to be having some problems.

To recap, I have been doing 2, sometimes 3, 10-15% water changes weekly in a 30 gallon hex tank. I usually do not disturb all the gravel when doing the water changes. In fact, I usually only disturb about 1/6th of it or so, and the rest I just do a surface cleaning. I use Prime when I am conditioning tap water which is not supposed to affect pH, and I make sure to measure it correctly for the amount of water I am adding back to the tank. (However, RTR's aged water with no additives is sounding good to me right now). I have a fluval 4plus interior cannister filter. Up until this weekend it was fully cycled. I have regular natural colored gravel, some plastic plants, and a couple clean flower pots in this tank. Up until this weekend the stats on the water were 0 ammonia, 0 nitrites, under 10 ppm nitrates, and pH of 7.2.

Yesterday I had 2 fish die, and I did two 30-40% water changes to get rid of ammonia, once early in the day and once in the evening. At the time the fish died it had been 4 days since my last water change. I vacuumed the gravel pretty extensively and afterwards my water became cloudy and I think I am experiencing a bacterial bloom (which happened when I got the tank too, but that is supposed to be more normal I think). Now I discover today that my pH has dropped BELOW 6.0, and my filter seems to have fully crashed. I have very high ammonia, though 0 nitrites so far. I don't know what my pH was yesterday before the water changes unfortunately.

I went to the LFS today to talk to the lady I trust there, and she doesn't feel like my small overfeeding issue was the problem. She also said I was probably working harder than necessary but she didn't think the water changes would have caused this either. She told me to be sure not to vacuum all my gravel deep at once because that destroys the beneficial bacteria and causes crashes... I'm not as sure about that information since I don't run a UGF type filter and I thought most my biological filtration was in the filter. However, except for yesterday I don't normally do that. I have decided to drop my water change schedule to 15% once a week, but this isn't solving my pH issue.

She says our tap water is extremely soft, and that it has very little buffering capacity. She gave me some pH buffer to add slowly to the tank today, and says for me NOT to do water changes for a full week so we can see if the pH goes back up. She says my fish will be able to handle the cycle even if I don't do water changes this week. This makes me incredibly nervous since my ammonia is so high (5.0-6.0 ppm), but currently they look healthy. She also said that the ammonia can't harm them at so low a pH, but I'm worried what will happen once the buffer starts working and the pH goes back up.

She said that recently she cycled a large tank and right at the offset the pH crashed hard. She did the same thing I'm doing by adding this buffer, and said after that the pH was corrected and has held without any additional help. She says if my pH crashes again after the buffer we'll add crushed coral to keep it steadier.

My 90 gallon that receives the same water change regimen that the 30 gallon did has 0 ammonia, 0 nitrites, and under 10 ppm nitrates. It has a pH of 7.4. The 90 has been up and running for over 3 years though, and the 30 hex I am having problems with is under 6 months old.

My 10 gallon which is newer receives these water changes, but stays at 7.6. My 20 gallon stays at 7.8 but has crushed coral to bring up the pH/hardness for livebearers.

Any opinions on if I should be doing anything else or what to suspect for the pH crash? Could it really have been my water change schedule? Anything else I should check for?

[Dahlia]

In case my above post is dauntingly long, two of my more pressing questions are:

1.) Should I listen to the lady at the local LFS about not doing any water changes for 1 week even though my tank is cycling again and my ammonia is very high? She says my fish can handle it but I am nervous. If I do the water change it will apparently botch the pH buffering test, too.

2.) If you use a filter that is not a gravel filter (UGF or RFUGF) should it affect your biological filtration if you clean your gravel deeply or not?

As an update, I've added some of the buffer (adding it over a slow period to keep the pH from jumping too fast). At 10:45pm my water tested at:

-7.0 pH (up from 5.8 or so... seems fast to me even at her slow dosing recommendations)
-6.0-7.0 ppm ammonia (eek!)
-0 nitrites
-0 nitrates

The severum and danios do not act stressed, though the corydoras seem slower than usual to me.

[RTR]

Never listen to anyone who tells you not to do water changes.

Never listen to anyone who tells you not to vacuum unplanted substrates, or for that matter anyone who tells you not to vacuum UG/RFUG even more carefully than simple sitting-there building up sludge and horror routine substrates.

Never listen to anyone who tells you to add commercial buffers to your tank. Can you say roller coaster? Use carbonates/bicarbonates, which are what the water lacks. No commercial buffer for FW that I know uses this, and the natural buffer in the wild is...you guessed it. Bicarbonare of soda can be used, if the changes are very gradual- sudden changes in KH and pH are not healthy. I'd use small amounts or aragonite and expect v_e_r_y slow changes. If I fell to the levels you did, I'd add a bit of bicarb daily until I got back up and then add the aragonite. You may have to add or remove to get balance at whatever pH/KH you select.

Good luck - very low KH water can be handy for some situations, but KH and nitrates need to be monitored.

[Dahlia]

Do you have any guesses as to why my pH dropped the way it did?

What is "a bit" of bicarbonate of soda, any recommendations as to how much and how long to wait in between adding it? I can test the water after I add it but I wanted a general idea of what to start with.

I'm scared if I do a water change I'm just going to crash again, if I add the equivelent bicarb I'm removing as I do the change will that hold it steady or does the bicarb take a bit to raise pH?

Is crushed coral a better solution since it is steady and I don't have to add it every time I change water?

[Dahlia]

One more thing, since our water tends to have high amounts of chloramine in it, if I do a water change where I just add Prime to the water will I essentially be removing ammonia just to add more of it? I'm off to age some buckets of water overnight.

Will it even make a difference if I add Prime to chloramine water to age it? Does the ammonia just stay?

[RTR]

Your pH dropped because your water/tank has very low KH. The primary thing holding pH stable is the KH (carconates/bicarbonates) in the water. Normal aquarium process can deplete KH - for every milliequivalent of nitrogen oxidized from ammonia to nitrate, two milliequivalents of bicarbonate are used, so routine nitrification is one of the significant users of KH. In water with moderate KH routine partial replenish the buffering. In low KH areas, the hobbyist either does very frequent partials or supplements KH with sodium bicarbonate (short term) or aragonite (long term, more soluble than crushed coral and much more soluble than dolomite).

You can test in a bucket starting with ~1/2 teaspoon bicarb per 50 gallons of water for each degree of carbonate hardness/KH you want to have. Dissolve a measured small quantity of bicarb in water, add part of that to the bucket and measure the KH. Play with the quantity (not in the tank) until you know how much to use with the amount you replace at the partial change. But please don't do large sudden changes on the tank. Ph shock is a misnomer, but osmotic shock can be hazardous to the fish.

Prime complexs the ammonia, making it harmless (ammonium ion is relatively harmless, free ammonia is very hazardous). The complexed ammonia is still bioavailable to bacteria, and they will still oxidize it from the complex.

Chlorine may be off-gassed by open-to-the-air (preferably with circulation, it is faster) storage. Chloramine is so much more stable that storage is ineffective for removal. The conditioners do not really remove the ammonia, they just make it non-toxic.

[Dahlia]

Thanks!


Ph shock is a misnomer, but osmotic shock can be hazardous to the fish.

Would you mind elaborating on this since it seems interesting? Or pointing me to a link. Seems like something that might be on the Skeptical Aquarist website I just started reading but if so I haven't gotten to it yet.

Should I bother with the bicarbonate or just go straight for the aragonite? Currently my pH is holding at 7.0. Also, either I took an incorrect reading last night, or my ammonia has gone down overnight. I don't have any nitrite readings, though. Is it possible the ammonia bacteria died but the nitrite converting ones survived?

Does the ammonia neutralizing effect of Prime wear off over time or does ammonia stay fixed once it has come in contact with it?

Is ammonia or nitrite more toxic to fish? I've seen conflicting info here. There is nothing that will neutralize nitrite, correct?

[Sumpin'fishy]

Wow, you have been on a ride lately, huh? I really hope you can get things worked out correctly. Hope I can help some. RTR hit many of the issues, but I'd like to offer what I would do in this situation:

Long-Term Suggestions-

First: DON'T ask that lady at your LFS for advice on anything but her choice of hairstylist!;)

Second: I believe you have some type of over-stocking/over-feeding issue, due to the fact that you do several water changes each week and still average 10ppm Nitrate (when things are going well). You may need to think about down-sizing this bio-load a bit for long term use. Also, I'd go with a 25-30% water change, once weekly, and work from there. If you notice your water pH dropping, increase frequency to 2 times a week at about 20%. If your Nitrates are over 20-30ppm (before water change) I would definately drop some fish. If your tank is moderately to heavily planted I'd not do more than a surface vacuum at each water change. If it's a Fish Only tank, I'd do a pretty decent gravel vac (all the way to the glass bottom) at least once a week. I wouldn't worry about every speck of dirt, though.

Third: Get some Argonite/Crushed Coral and add this to the substrate or filter (small amount in filter). This will gradually raise KH. I wouldn't bother with spot-dosing any tank, this can cause problems if you forget, go on vacation, or have more parties/get-togethers (like what happened this time). Don't worry about exact pH levels, just make sure your water is stable!

Fourth: Look at getting another filter quickly, if you are having troubles with it shutting off! I know you were thinking of getting another one for your future Angelfish pair, so make this a more immediate goal! Go for quality and reliability, you will end up paying the money one way or the other in the long run.
-----------------------
Immediate Suggestions-

One: Do DAILY water changes until ammonia is UNDETECTABLE! Stop using any kind of buffer and get that crushed coral/argonite working in the filter.

Two: Using PRIME water conditioner is fine for your tank. It neutralizes Ammonia, Nitrite, and Nitrate, which are all good things. Based on questions I just asked, and answers received about this conditioner, it keeps these available to bacteria and plant use.

----------------
To be honest, I'm surprised that the lady at your LFS actually knew about the ammonia/ammonium difference at different pH's, but the problem is that she's suggesting advice without fully understanding what is going to happen to this "balance". It is true that as the pH gets lower there is more ammonium than ammonia, and that this is much less dangerous to fish. When your pH jumped from 5.8 to 7.0, this balance rapidly converted into the other direction and became much more toxic to your fish. So not only is there a pH/osmotic balance shock, but there is a rapid (rather than gradual) buildup of toxic ammonia. This can't be fun for the fish. Something like that can wipe out a tank, real quick. Your plants are also going through the shock, and sensitive species may "melt" or degrade, which will also affect water quality until things stabilize.

Since your filter failed(?) and your bacteria died off in it (this is my theory), you definately don't want to clean the rest of the tank other than skimming over the surface of the gravel for a couple of weeks. The bacteria in your gravel was all your had going for you at that point. This is why having two filters is nice.....for backup.

To sum this up, after following both posts, I believe your problem was that the filter probably failed (probably a power outage), and lasted long enough for the bacteria in it to die. You didn't mention finding the filter "off", so it must have re-started itself, and in the process spitting all that dead, degrading bacteria and filtered mess back into the tank with lots of ammonia, this ammonia is a weak acid and this would help to use up your KH buffering in the water, which only increased when you vacuumed the gravel and removed more bacteria, two fish died (more ammonia), and finally you test the water to find it in a pH crash! I know this all goes on the assumption that your filter quit working (somehow) for a while, but it's not at all impossible. Even something clogging the intake could cause the flow to be low enough to cause a die-off. These situations are not uncommon, especially with the "strange and mysterious" deaths, ammonia spike, and pH crash! I hope your fish's gills aren't too burnt after all that ammonia, too. Ammonia in the 5.0+ level is considered LETHAL to most fish, not accounting for the sensitive ones. GET IT DOWN IMMEDIATELY!

Best wishes.

[Dahlia]

Hi Sumpin'fishy!

I think the lady at my LFS is actually pretty knowledgeable, experienced, and well-read... I've decided the problem is probably that a lot of her reading material is dated and that she may be forgetting key points of it. Also, she doesn't use the internet and perhaps has missed out on some of the more recent aquaria discoveries. I'm planning to print her some of the articles from The Skeptical Aquarist for her. But she seems to have extensive chemistry knowledge, most of the time correct. But yeah, I'm going to start researching stuff before I just do what she tells me to. She gives good advice more often than bad... but in this case bad could equal fatal. She's very good with info on caring for and breeding particular fish species.


Second: I believe you have some type of over-stocking/over-feeding issue, due to the fact that you do several water changes each week and still average 10ppm Nitrate (when things are going well).

I guess I wasn't specific enough here. My nitrates are usually 0-5... the color registers 0 or just barely colored so I don't think its even a 5. I just thought under 10 ppm was the goal, so I meant it never registers above that.

It's a 30 gallon hex tank and HAD 5 juvenile zebra danios, 5 skunk corydoras, 2 small severum (one was 1" and the other was 1 1/2"). Now it is missing the 1" severum and one of the corys. It's not planted, I'm still trying to figure out how to light it.

I think I'm going to get some aragonite tomorrow. I think she'll probably try and talk me out of it or talk me into crushed coral but since the aragonite is supposed to be better I'm going to go with that.

My filter didn't actually cut off... I'm pretty sure it was running the entire time. I know when my power has been off because my computer reboots, but it didn't last weekend. When I looked inside the filter there didn't seem to be anything that could impede the flow. I think it is actually unlikely it stopped or slowed down... I mean it is possible but signs don't seem to point at it. All I know for sure happened is the pH bombed and the filter bacteria seem to have died... I don't know why. I at least understand the pH drop, but I'm not sure if that could kill my biological filter. I suppose that means the gravel bacteria is also dead.


One: Do DAILY water changes until ammonia is UNDETECTABLE! Stop using any kind of buffer and get that crushed coral/argonite working in the filter.

Isn't this impossible for me at the moment with my water due to the chloramine? I mean, I'm doing water changes but since my tapwater registers high ammonia, the tank certainly does after the water changes. In fact, I just tested my water straight out of the tap (but treated with Prime) and the water turned BROWN instead of yellow-orange. The only way to get rid of it is for the biological filter to start working again, correct?

I'd suspect my tap water's chloramine levels except that I use the same tap water in many other tanks and do not experience this problem in them.

If you can think of anything else for me to check let me know!

[Dahlia]

Also, does anyone know the answer to this question:

Does the ammonia neutralizing effect of Prime wear off over time or does ammonia stay fixed once it has come in contact with it?

And also, does that count for its affects on nitrite and nitrate as well? I mean do they stay fixed until the bacteria convert it or until water changes etc. remove the nitrates.

[RTR]

The pH crash shut down the nitrification bacteria. Whether or not it killed them is likely to be a lot more complex, with large individual variation depending on the the already stated length of time exposed to the very acid conditions (optimum for these FW bacteria is 7.5 and above), the age of the colony (for some reasons not fully explored or explained, new colonies are much more sensitive than long-established ones), and no doubt other factors as yet unknown. The ammonia oxidizers at least do have a non-spore idle condition during which they are not dividing and not comsuming much either, which is likely a response to inadequate or suboptimum living conditions, but how long they can hold there is poorly understood/studied, as is what reactivates them. The net is that your nitrifiers may or may not have been killed, and as usual, the only proof is how well and quickly they recover.

Many folks have detectable and non-trivial nitrate in the tap water. This is the limiting factor on how low you can maintain nitrate titer in unplanted tanks. In high-light carbon-supplementd planted tanks, this obviously it is less of an issue, but would still be dependent on the levels in the source water. In lower tech planted tanks, the situation is more similar to unplanted situations- it depends on the titer from the tap as the nitrate requirement of the plants would be significantly lower than in faster-growth situations. As you do not report this from other tanks, and previously had very low nitrate, it likely is not an issue in this situation.

Prime and other such complexers are pretty stable. The ammonia is likely there until the bacteria or plants split it off from the complexer. There will eventually be bacterial or other breakdown of the complexer (chemical) itself, but any study on that is likely to be and remain highly proprietary. The Seachen test can distinguish between complexed and free ammonium ion. I don't know of any other which can. I don't use the test myself.

Nitrite toxicity is fairly pH independent. Ammonia toxicity in tanks is highly pH dependent. This is all due to the balance between the dissolved gas NH3 and the ionic form NH4+. The ammonia NH3 is toxic, the ion is not very toxic at all. The balance between the two forms is pH and temperature dependent. There are tables on the web which give the relative proportions based on pH and temperature, but I don't have the URL handy. WetmanNY's like was broken some weeks back and I don't know if he has gotten it restored.

I am uncertain of the Prime effect, if any on nitrate. What would be the point? It is already fully oxidized.

Nitrite is not fully oxidized, but its toxicity is easily blocked by chloride ion (Cl-) from ordinary salt. It is a simple competitive inhibition for binding sites. I don't know if Prime includes chloride.

[Sumpin'fishy]

Gosh, Dahlia, you sure got yourself a pickle there! I wouldn't know where to begin with figuring out what happened then. That low fish load, and frequent partial water changes (couple a week or better) would lead me to think that a pH crash wouldn't be the culprit. Ammonia in the water is a terrible thing! If I had any ammonia in my tap after treating (or even before treating!) I'd probably consider a RO/DI water filtration system standard equipment in my home. It's easier to use that and re-constitute it to your preference. I do understand that's a decent investment cost, though.

Man what would you do if you had fry or wanted to try breeding fish? Doing water changes every day would actually make things WORSE until the bacteria caught up with the ammonia count, but then there would be more Nitrate than normal. Both of these are undesirable for fry tanks (or any tank IMO). Tough one to deal with. I do enjoy being able to do as many water changes as I want to keep organics and Nitrogen compounds down.

[RTR]

Sumpin'fishy - complexed ammonia - i.e., after Prime or Amquel treatment - is harmless to man or beast, or to fry. Folks with chloramine do not have to give up water changes or breeding fish, not do they require RO or RO/DI (unless for other reasons). They only need to know and understand what they are doing.

[Sumpin'fishy]

Ok, maybe I'm misunderstanding what she was saying. :confused: I thought what she was getting at was that she had such a high concentration of Chloramine in her water that even after treating and nullifying SOME ammonia, there was still SOME LEFT in toxic free form. Does her test only give the Total Ammonia count? I personally use PRIME and also use a Seachem Ammonia test, I NEVER detect ANY ammonia .....before, or after treatment. That is why I misunderstood.

I understand what you are telling me, and feel like I have a good working knowledge of how things work, even without any formal chemistry knowledge. Am I right in assuming that her test is picking up complexed (treated, harmless) ammonia also? If so then that explains it. If not, maybe I have a brick for a head?!:rolleyes:

[RTR]

Almost all test kits other than Seachem's read TAN, total ammonia nitrogen, and do not distinguish between complexed and free. So, your head may or may not be a brick. :)

But she did lose nitrification also from pH crash - made life more complex.

[Sumpin'fishy]

Quite right, quite right! Didn't know that most other kits did this. I've also used a Sera Ammonia Test kit, and again, never saw any ammonia using Prime, Tap Water Conditioner, Amquel, or Stresscoat. Ya learn something new every day! :idea2:

[Dahlia]

Hey, thanks for all this info. I did mean that my test kit just picks up ammonia in general, whether it is fixed or not. Also, I have had luck with fry before with this water. I am just having problems with this one tank.

I went and picked up some crushed coral yesterday. I chose this over the aragonite since I'm not shooting for a super high pH and the aragonite is supposed to be the same thing but dissipates faster? I got enough crushed coral to bring my pH up to 7.5 which seems like a nice stable place to be. I'm adding it in parts slowly. I've got to go test my water because I haven't had the chance all day. This just hasn't been my week for animals... this morning my cat was hit and killed by a car. My boyfriend came to tell me while I was cooking turkey for the family. :( I'm hoping next week goes much better.

[RTR]

Crushed coral will do the job, but requires more acid to dissovle than does aragonite, so is a tad less responsive, but it will work.

Sorry for your bad news Thanksgiving day. At least the tank is coming back.

[Dahlia]

Good news on my tank... the ammonia was at 0 yesterday and I never saw a nitrite spike so I suppose my entire biological filter had not been killed off. The pH seems to be holding steady as well. I didn't lose any more fish. Thanks again for all the help on this!

[RTR]

Great! Good save.