Need help on starting a SALTWATER tank?

First off, welcome to Aquaria entral and welcome to the salty side! We love fresh meat, errrr, I mean new faces =)

Hi Guys,
I'm a newbie. I never had fish and i want to get into it. I decided to go all out for a SALT water set up.

Not the easiest way to go about things, but doable if you are dedicated.

Can someone help me out by listing all the things that i need. I know there are certain parts that are better then others so can you suggest what they are.

Yeap...

You need:

- tank, as big as you can possibly get. You'll outgrow it, no matter how big it is. We all do, and that only leads to more tanks.
- lights (for fish only, standard NO (normal output) fluorescent lights are fine.)
- 1-2lbs of liverock per gallon of tank volume. The more fish, the more liverock.
- enough livesand to build a 4-6 layer on the bottom.
- heater (I personally prefer to have 2 small heaters instead of one big one. Redundancy is sometimes a good thing.)
- enough powerheads to turn the tank volume over 5-10 times per hour.

The liverock and livesand are your entire filtration system. The powerheads make sure all the water gets moved around the rock enough to be filtered.

The very best liverock is available from:

http://www.gulf-view.com/

Your fish store should have the livesand. There is a cheaper route, and I'll explain it for you if you wish, but it complicates the setup of your tank. It's not hard, just longer and more work. If ya can't swallow the price of the livesand and liverock, I'll tell ya how to do it on a budget.

You do not need, nor want, expensive external filtration like a canister, wet-dry, UV sterilizers or anything of that sort. Fish stores will try and push them on you, but just say no! A protien skimmer might be a consideration for you down the road, but many people never bother with them. I have one, I like the placebo effect it has on me, so I use it. I could probably unplug it and never miss it. You might want a small external power filter, like an Aqua-Clear, for extra mechanical filtration. I have one and I run it to clear up the tank if I get the sand all stirred up. This is optional.


I decided to go for a 46 gallon curved front glass tank that i found around my area for $349.95 I was to go for a bigger... but the next size up they had was 72 gallon Curveg glass.

In 6 months, you'll be wishing you'd just done it now. Trust me on this one. There is no such thing as "enough room"

I really dont wanna go for anything that hangs on the back of the tank since space is an issue. Plus tank comes with a stand that can support a filter and a UV filtration system

A lot of people put a secondary tank, called a sump, under the stand which houses the heater and adds additional water volume. It also makes the water level in the tank stay at a constant level and makes topping off with freshwater (which you'll do on a daily basis as your tank water evaoprates) much easier to handle. Saltwater tanks don't really use filters, they use liverock and livesand. UV sterilizers are actually frowned upon cuz they do very little for your tank and just kill micro-organisms.. Skip that expense, you don't need it.


-This is going to be an all fish tank
-mainly non aggresive fish

the break down will be like this

6 - of one school
3 - of the same
3
2
1 - something big

havent fully decided on what each one will be but thats the community i plan. for

SO please let me know what is good out there.

Sorry, in a 46 you simple cannot stock at that level. Heck, even that 72 won't hold that many fish. Saltwater tanks are stocked lightly, you just can't cram them full like you've probably seen in freshwater tanks. You can have a few, maybe 4 fish in the 46, depending on aggression. The 72 would let you keep bigger fish, but maybe not more fish.

Potential stock for a 46 would include:

- various clownfishes, pick a species and stick with it. Mixing clowns is usually a fatal mistake. A couple Tomato or Maroon would be nice. Don't have more than 2.


or



- a dwarf angelfish, the Coral Beauty or Flame would both be great in there. You can only have ONE angel in a tank, else they will kill each other.


or


- you mentioned a school, so you might want to consider a school of chromis, which is a type of damselfish. They do well in schools, but poorly alone. They are small and come in a variety of colors. Do not mix colors or they will try to kill each other.




- avoid all damselfish with the exception of a Yellowtail Damsel. The others get far too agressive and will feud with the clownfish. Most damsels also get ugly as they grow older.


- then, once your tank is VERY well established, 1-2 years old, you might want to consider a Mandarin fish. Very beautiful and very difficult to keep alive. Most people won't even attempt these, but I have and I know they can make it.



Again though, the Mandarin is a VERY long term goal. Do not even try one right now as it will die of starvation. They only eat little bugs off of your liverock, and those take a long time to get established.

Now, if you want to make it a predatory tank, that tank would be great for a small lionfish, like a Dwarf Zebra. They look just like the big ones, but they top out at about 6". I can't think of much to go in a 46 with a lion, cuz anything small enough to fit in the tank with him would also be small enough to fit in his maw. And that makes it chow =) I guess a LARGE (4"+) Maroon or Tomato clown would survive pretty well.


Well there ya go, chew on those lists for a little while..

Hey thanks for the help....
Yer quite welcome =)

but i'm still not certain of what are the exact things i need..

any way possible to break it down step by step.... part by part.

Yeap, go here and read the steps in a basic primer a friend and I wrote. It also explains how to save a few bucks on the liverock and sand by using what is called base rock to get started. It covers everything you'll need to get rolling.

http://www.theoscarspot.com/yabbse/index.php?board=11

I'm gonna start looking for some of this stuff on Ebay and on line for cheap prices. I would love to save some money for my fish.
Good idea, go to........

www.bigalsonline.com
www.marinedepot.com

and for your livestock,

www.liveaquaria.com


---Why do you say that i will owergrow the tank. I mean how easy is it to over gorow the tank ?

Very. Stocking levels in saltwater tanks are VERY delicate. In freshwater, you have small, wimpy fish that will just get ich and die if they get stressed. In salt, you have aggressive fish that will turn hostile most of the time if they feel they or their turf are threatened.

---Can i do a combination of live rock and live sand? And doesnt 4-6 inches of sand seems a bit much... i mean i dont want my tank to be full of sand?

The sand has to be that deep in order to form the anaerobic (no movement of water) zone where nitrates (the end product of fish poop) are processed. You can go more shallow by using what is called oolitic sand, which is verrrrry fine sand, but that gets very pricey.

---Is getting Sump (not sure of spelling) with a good flowing pump a good thing. Since i dont want anything hanging on the tank?

Lots of people run sumps and love em. I personally prefer stuff on the back of the tank, but to each his own. Our resident plumber, Slipknottin, can tell you allll you wanna know about sumps over in the DIY forum.

---Will a good pump with sump be good enough to turn over the water in the tank? or is the powerhead will be needed reguardless?
Nope, you'll need the powerheads in the tank to create chaotic water flows, so you don't get dead spots where the water isn't moving. They are fairly unobtrusive, and totally contained in the tank.

---You mentioned that UV is nt important... not doubting you... since the guy at the fish store said the same thing and was pretty cool ( by suggesting looking for some things on line and ) Well he mentioned that if i'm gonna get a lot of fish like i plan... he said that getting a UV might be ok ... since it might help with over crowding?

UV helps only if you have something in the water that is a problem. Let's say your fish get ich... The ich will appear on your fish as little white spots. Those white spots will then drop off your fish and be free swimming critters, for lack of a better term... Those critters will seek a new host, other fish, and spread the infection... If you have a UV running, it will toast them as they go through it. Now... The same holds true for GOOD critters as well. Any micro-organisms that might be beneficial for your tank will be zapped by the thing as well. I personally don't like em.

--- Seems like i'm missing a lot more things. I mean what about other things such as testers thermometers and other filtration devices? List every detail if you dont mind.

The link above tells you all about that stuff. If it ain't listed, you don't need it.

FISH ??

If i were to get Clown fish... and LIon fish would they eat eachother?

The lion could eat a small clown, but no clown would mess with a lion. Fish know when they see its spectacular finnage, "hey, venomous, stay away!"

What does Lion fish usually munch on I know small things but any particular fish?

Lions can and will eat anything it can fit into its gaping maw of a mouth. Imagine a great white and you have some idea how indiscriminate it is when selecting a snack. The key is to oversize the tankmates so they won't fit his mouth. Difficult to do in a smaller tank.

How about Yellow Tang? can they be in the same tank as clown and lionfish?

Absolutely, possitively do NOT keep a yellow tang, or any tang for that matter, in a tank less than 4 feet long. Imagine you own a Corvette, and you only drive it down the street about 100' at a time. You got that great big engine, yet you can't open it up and really go at it. Well that's kinda like a tang. They are crusiers, and they love to swim. They can't do that in a small tank and they stress out over it. They will go with both a lion and clowns, but the tank needs to be big.

What about any types of sharks..... or will they eat everything?

Despite what you've seen in movies or on tv, no shark is suitable for a home sized tank. Saharks are very delicate critters that are best left in the wild. Wanna see a shark? Turn on Discovery or go diving. You'll find a LOT of people will ding you around here for even suggesting the idea of keeping one. Tread lightly, young grasshopper

Yes... you read this and you wonder... is this kid really a newb... the answer is YES

Not a single person on this board knew it all when they started, and I daresay not a single one knows it all NOW. We were all a newbie at one point =)

SILVERLUDE- Hit that first link Corax provided you (TheOscarSpot)and read, read, read. Then find some other marine sites and read some more. This is not something that you can learn in one week.
I have a long history in freshwater, and have been studying a few marine topics since April of this year- and only now feel a tiny bit secure in decision making regarding what products to buy.

There are 100 ways to do everything in a marine tank and each way has its own pros and cons. Until you are able to get a grasp on the "hows" and "whys" you should not be buying anything.

I'd suggest that you spend a considerable amount of time researching set-ups- protein skimmers, sumps, water chemistry, cycling, lighting, circulation etc. before you get too far into livestock.

Start with AC's own Marine Newbie Forum and read every topic. Then hit Google with those that pique your interest or speak to specific questions you have. Research is your friend- else you just end up having to buy everything three times due to bad choices.

It is expensive enough when you make the right choice the first time! And I have to tell you that $500 on a tank and stand is barely the beginning- wait until you are 100% sure what you want.

WOW ... you are the man. This grasshopper still has lots to learn in future to come.

As do we all my friend. Once you think you know it all, find a new book and keep learning.

Well since you said all those things will out grow... then i might as well get the 72 gallon. But **** that thing is big. Oh well since most of my money is gonna be spent on the tank $500 w/ stand my fish better like swiming in nothing but water.

Actually, if you go the base rock route, you can have a fairly packed tank without spending an arm and a leg.

---Whats a HOB filter?
HOB = Hang On Back

---Are there test kits that are in the tank 24/7 and monitor all the levels for you or you have to use them on your own?

You can get those for pH, but they're very expensive. The Hagen master kit suggested on that page is, IMHO, about the best value going. You can get more expensive tests, but the accuracy isn't THAT much better. Some tests I'd pay more for, like a copper test, but not the common ones.

---did i read correctly... that you need to add dead shrimp ?? or are they live shrimp

The cocktail shrimp come from a grocery store and are indeed dead. They provide the ammonia your tank needs to kick start the cycling process. If you use 100% liverock and livesand, you'll want to skip the shrimp as it will damage the rock.

---How does one put all that stuff in? is there a process or kinda just drop in and add water HEHEH ?

1.) setup tank, stand, hood and all hardware
2.) put in a 1" layer of play sand
3.) make a stable pile of your baserock
4.) put in remaining play sand around the rock
5.) add water
6.) add salt
7.) let it mix up for a few days
8.) bring the temperature up to your desired temp, I run 80 degrees.
9.) throw in the shrimp and wait a few weeks.

That's about it.

---I heard that you need to clean the gravel or sand.... is that true? or is there a filter that you can buy for the botom of the gravel?

There is, but you aren't using gravel. Sand beds do not need cleaning. You put snails, such as cerith or nassarius, in there to keep it clean and stirred. www.floridapets.com is a good place to get your cleanup crew. Don't get it right away though. The crew will starve until there is actually something in there to clean.

Oh and I agree on finding other sources of infomation. I like to think I know what I'm doing, but there are people that DWARF my knowledge. Some on this very board. One of the mods in this forum, Boogiechillin is an absolute fountain of knowledge. Oriongirl, another mod on this board, also a tremendous source of information. Then, the guru himself, Reefscape..... I think his brain could start spewing saltwater at any given moment =) Take his word as gospel, cuz he really knows his stuff... Find as many sources of info as you can, then run what one says past the others and see if they concur. If they do, then it's probably good advice. If not, then keep digging.