My Skeleton Work (WARNING! Dead animals and high res photos)

[BioHazard]

Well, some of you on the chatroom had shown some interest in my work at the university with dermestid beetles. So, I figured I'd share some pictures!
I want to warn those of you with sensitive stomachs, these are pictures of dead things and bones and bugs! If things like that bother you, don't look! :evil_lol: Anyone going into biology major might as well get used to it.

Okay, first up, this is where I work right now. We are going to be moving the operation soon. When I start prepping a specimen, I thaw out a freezer critter and skin and gut it. If it is much larger than a small rabbit, I also try to remove some of the muscle and dry it out to beef jerky consistency. If it is much bigger than cat sized, I seperate it into parts (limbs, torso, head, etc.). If it is that large, I also remove the brain.
http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u300/Graphicentropy/lab.jpg

And here is the tank! This is where the specimen goes next. The dermestids are in a 10(?) gallon fishtank. The white things on the left are paper towels, which I spray with water to provide moisture, and styrofoam, which the beetles burrow into to pupate. On the right are plastic containers for specimens.
http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u300/Graphicentropy/tank1.jpg

A view from the top, with the lid off. Dermestid beetles can fly, but only over certain temps. Obviously, I try to keep it below that temp.
You can see specimens in the cups. Right now there is a mouse, short-tailed shrew, 2 baby rabbits of different ages and a Northern flicker. Each specimen has a tag with information about the specimen on it.
http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u300/Graphicentropy/tank2.jpg

This is one of the baby rabbits. It was killed by a cat a year ago, don't look at me like that!
http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u300/Graphicentropy/beetlebunny.jpg

This is the Northern flicker. They are really pretty birds! He was killed on a road.
http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u300/Graphicentropy/beetleflicker.jpg

This is a closeup, so you can see the beetles better. The adults are the black beetles. The larvae look like brown caterpillars. This specimen is one of the baby rabbits. I actually still have a few more of these guys to do.
http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u300/Graphicentropy/beetles.jpg

Okay, so the beetles have cleaned the specimen, what next? Depends on the size. Anything larger than a pigeon needs to be degreased. Even if the bones look clean, there is still lots of organic nasties inside the bones. Time for a soak in ammonium hydroxide! Sound fancy? Its just water with a tiny bit of store bought ammonia in it. Everything sounds fancy in science.

Here are the ammonia jars I have running right now, right next to the beetles. I'm very space limited, so I use what I can. Every day, I come in and change the water, refilling it with fresh ammonium hydroxide. The beetles themselves don't have much of an odor, but this part does.
http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u300/Graphicentropy/ammojars.jpg

This is a grey fox skull, given to me by a trapper. Okay, no preaching to me about fur. I am anti-fur, but I live in PA, the hunting state. So, things like this show up. It is getting close to being done degreasing.
http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u300/Graphicentropy/ammogreyfox.jpg

This is a stillborn lamb skeleton. My mom has a friend who raises sheep for meat, so I asked if I could get a couple of babies who died naturally. It's in an earlier stage of degreasing, so the water is dirtier.
http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u300/Graphicentropy/ammolamb.jpg

My last ammonia guy right now, a red tail hawk. Obviously, we have a special liscense to do this. We don't even know where this guy came from, he just showed up in front of my Profs office (already dead, obviously).
http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u300/Graphicentropy/ammohawk.jpg

The next stage is either whitening with hydrogen peroxide (optional) or boxing it up! Right now I don't have many boxes to work with, so the skeletons are just sitting around.
http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u300/Graphicentropy/trayskeletons2.jpg
http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u300/Graphicentropy/trayskeletons.jpg

Lets take a closer look at a few specimens...

This is a short tailed shrew skull. These guys are actually venemous! Look at all those teeth! These are insectivores, and use those sharp teeth to crunch through bug shells.
http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u300/Graphicentropy/skullshrew.jpg

A raccoon skull. Also very toothy.
http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u300/Graphicentropy/skullraccoon.jpg

Grey fox skull. Grey foxes are not closely related to red foxes, but are actually basal canines.
http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u300/Graphicentropy/skullfox.jpg

Starling skeleton. Starlings are not native to the US.
http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u300/Graphicentropy/skelstarling.jpg

Short tailed shrew skeleton.
http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u300/Graphicentropy/skelshrew.jpg

Eastern Screech owl. He actually had a mouse in his stomach when I dissected him. He had gotten hit by a car, which is why his cranium is mostly missing.
http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u300/Graphicentropy/skelowl.jpg

Dark eyed junco skeleton, in a box. The boxes I have right now are either super small, or super huge. Luckily, some of the really tiny birds can fit in the boxes.
http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u300/Graphicentropy/skeljunco.jpg

Although most of the hawk is degreasing right now, some stuff will fall apart if degreased, so I left it out. I am hold the tendons from the foot, which I managed to remove whole. On the table are the talons and the sclerotic rings. The sclerotic ring is a ring of bone that surrounds the eye of birds (and dinosaurs).
http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u300/Graphicentropy/skelhawk.jpg

This is the hyoid bone from the hawk, along with some of the trachea. In people, the hyoid is mostly cartilagenous, but in birds, it extends into the tongue.
http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u300/Graphicentropy/hawkhyoid.jpg

Here is another hyoid bone, this is of a Downy woodpecker. See how long it iis? In woodpeckers, the hyoid curls up and around the top of the cranium! This is how they can extend their tongues so far, to reach into holes for grub.
http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u300/Graphicentropy/woodpeckerhyoid.jpg

Anyone recognize this? We had an albino gourami in one of the labs that passed away.
http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u300/Graphicentropy/skelgourami.jpg
http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u300/Graphicentropy/skelgourami2.jpg

So, that's what I do in my spare time! I'm not actually getting any credit for this, nor am I getting paid. I am, however, learning a lot about anatomy that can't just be gleaned from books, and gaining valuable life experience.

Please post any questions, I'll answer whatever I can!

[msjinkzd]

I find it absolutlely fascinating. Thanks so much for sharing these images!

[serissime]

......wow! this is pretty cool! is this at least something you'll be able to put on a future resume? for professional school?

[Coler]

Really cool - thanks for sharing.

[noodles62]

well, I can handle the bones and stuff, but when you get to the bugs....eeewwww!!! :barf:

[red_wall]

So, you do this just for fun?
Or... study?

What do you do this for if it isn't required by the school?

[Bottomfeeder2]

very nice! that Gourami has some nice teeth!

[BioHazard]

So, you do this just for fun?
Or... study?

What do you do this for if it isn't required by the school?

A little bit of both. I am doing this with a professor I am doing an Independent Study with. He is an ornithologist, and had a ton of specimens, mostly birds, stored in a couple of freezers. He was interested in doing this, and it sounded cool to me. I have actually learned a lot more about anatomy from this than I did from books.
I do this for the school because I like to help, and this will look great on the resume. Life experience is worth more than credits! :)

[Redneck Woman]

That looks very interesting! :thm:

[cam191919]

the gourami i find the most interesting, it would be interesting to find donations of fallen fishy friends from LFS's and possibly aquariums

[Winged]

Wow! This is very interesting! One of my brothers was saying this was something he wanted to do. I may have to direct him to here.

I swear, I get those larvae in with my crickets sometimes! Or at least something that looks nearly identical to it.

[BoCoMo]

Cool thread! :thumbsup:

[dirtydawg10]

Very cool!!

[BioHazard]

Wow! This is very interesting! One of my brothers was saying this was something he wanted to do. I may have to direct him to here.

I swear, I get those larvae in with my crickets sometimes! Or at least something that looks nearly identical to it.

It's possible that you do find these! If you ever see some not so fresh roadkill, check it out. These guys tend to colonize carrion after the maggots get to it. Maggots need things really moist, but dermestids can deal with much drier food. You can find these guys everywhere, even in your yard.

[BioHazard]

the gourami i find the most interesting, it would be interesting to find donations of fallen fishy friends from LFS's and possibly aquariums
I hope to get more donations! A lot of universities who run these (usually they are larger, but we are just starting up) work with local zoos and aquaria to get really rare and unique specimens. My one Prof was telling me about a time when he was in grad school (at a different university) when a nearby zoo had an elephant die. They asked if the U wanted it, and they accepted, of course. They had no place to put it, so they had a crane lift it onto the roof, and let it rot away to get the skeleton. He said there were stalactites of fat dripping down the sides of the building, and you had to hold your breath when you walked near the building or on the roof.
I've actually been asking around on here for specimens too. I'm always looking for large fish, reptiles, etc.

[Blueiz]

Nice! I watched an episode of dirty jobs that had the hole process of cleaning skeletons on it..I found it fascinating

[luckydud13]

Yum

[rocker92]

great thread and keep us updated!!!

[Dangerdoll]

as creepy as my head says to be, I find this extremely intriguing!! Thanks for sharing!

[jm1212]

they tell you that its what on the inside that counts, but that gourami is still ugly.

[Vicious_Fish]

Interesting stuff! Thanks for sharing.

[Fishy_Fun]

Wow! This is very interesting! One of my brothers was saying this was something he wanted to do. I may have to direct him to here.

I swear, I get those larvae in with my crickets sometimes! Or at least something that looks nearly identical to it.

Me too!

Oh and great thread:thm:

[Lupin]

Never tried to do something like that but the gourami's shape tells me it may be a giant gourami although I've never seen the teeth at all. I've never ventured beyond this and fisheries would have been my preferred profession but I got it sidetracked as the university offering this course is very far so it was a no go.

[BioHazard]

Never tried to do something like that but the gourami's shape tells me it may be a giant gourami although I've never seen the teeth at all. I've never ventured beyond this and fisheries would have been my preferred profession but I got it sidetracked as the university offering this course is very far so it was a no go.

I really don't know what kind of gourami it was... we don't even know where it came from. I guess some Prof owned it, but decided they didn't want it, so they dumped it into one of the tanks we have running at the university with goldfish and elodea. They use the goldfish to look at bloodflow (if you look at a fin under a scope, you can see the blood moving through the veins), and the elodea for plasmolysis(you can see the cells in elodea plants really well, and when you add a salt solution, the cells retract from the cell wall, called plasmolysis). Unfortunately, it wasn't well cared for here either, and since it was in a room that was usually locked, there wasn't much I could do...:(
It does have impressive teeth though! I wouldn't want to be bitten by one of these guys. I'd love to get some more fish, this is the only one I have. Mostly, I have birds, since the Prof I'm working with is an ornithologist (Bird studier). The next thing I have the most of is small rodents, which my cat and other Profs cats keep in steady supply.

[red_wall]

That really is kinda cool.
I wish I could chemical-ize things down to the bone.

Side note:


I just thought of the coolest art idea ever...

Skeleton tank.
Have normal community fish skeletons hung in a tank...
Crrreeepy.

[BioHazard]

That really is kinda cool.
I wish I could chemical-ize things down to the bone.

Side note:


I just thought of the coolest art idea ever...

Skeleton tank.
Have normal community fish skeletons hung in a tank...
Crrreeepy.

Woah... that would be creepy! You could bring it out around halloween to freak people out. If you ever want to skeletonize something, it's not that hard, just time consuming. Before I had beetles at the school, I would macerate skulls for my own collection. You just mix up some ammonium hydroxide (lots of water mixed with a little bit of ammonia), put the skull in and let it sit outside in the warm sun for months. Bacteria colonize it and break down the flesh, and you take it out every week or so, scrub the skull a bit to remove loose stuff, and put it back in. You also change the water when it gets too cloudy. This is slow, smelly and tedious though. Also, you can't do anything too delicate, because it will fall apart. If you want dermestids, just look for some oldish roadkill. Put the beetles in a tank with some dirt and mulch and catfood (for food when there is no specimens). When you are done skeletonizing, set them free.

[kjr928]

Really, really cool, thanks for sharing.

So, what's it smell like in there?

[BioHazard]

Really, really cool, thanks for sharing.

So, what's it smell like in there?

Actually, the odor isn't too bad. The room has no smell at all, and it helps that we have it under a fume hood with the fans on. The fume hood sucks the air up in the tank and spits it outside. The tank odor varies. When a fresh specimen is in, it can get a little stinky, but only when I have my face directly over it. The ammonia jars are the worst. The smell of rancid fat and decay running down the sink is enough to turn even my stomach!
The hawk in there actually smelled really bad, due to a freezer failure. We had a bunch of specimens in a freezer that quit working... the door popped open from all the decay fumes. When I started prepping the hawk, I had to open the door of the lab room to breathe. I could hear people walking by, and when they got near, I could hear the explatives! It was funny, once I got used to the smell. For the rest of the day, the whole hall smelled terribel. The hawk was really rotten, some of the muscles had actually turned green. :barf: The gourami also stank.

[Sploke]

Very cool - I helped my friend gut and skin his dead pet iguana in college, he did the same kind of thing, independent study with a professor using these beetles. So do you reconstruct the skeletons and mount them? Or do they just sit in the boxes?

[wetwillyjoe69]

neato thanks man

[illgore_trout]

hi, this stuff is great. I was wondering if you done any work preserving the skeletons you've cleaned in plastic resin. the results are great and the cost is low; the most expensive part is silicone for moldmaking. with your resources, it could be a nice side business. I do a lot of moldmaking and resin-pouring and it is a fairly simple process.
thanks for sharing your awesome "hobby"

[Chrisinator]

Weird and Freaky!! But awesome :) That's so neat.

[BioHazard]

Very cool - I helped my friend gut and skin his dead pet iguana in college, he did the same kind of thing, independent study with a professor using these beetles. So do you reconstruct the skeletons and mount them? Or do they just sit in the boxes?

Articulated skeletons look awesome, and I definitely want to do one. For universities, though, unarticulated is better. They will be put in boxes, ans the seperate elements can be looked at for studies. For example, right now I am doing an independent study with the same professor. The study is on hawk skulls (to put it really simply). To get our data, we used a special website that lists the collections of every university and museum. We were able to email each university, and ask to borrow the skulls to photograph them.
I would like to do an articulated specimen eventually. My goal is to get a horse, but most people don't want to donate thier dead pet horse to be disembowled and fed to bugs. :)

[BioHazard]

hi, this stuff is great. I was wondering if you done any work preserving the skeletons you've cleaned in plastic resin. the results are great and the cost is low; the most expensive part is silicone for moldmaking. with your resources, it could be a nice side business. I do a lot of moldmaking and resin-pouring and it is a fairly simple process.
thanks for sharing your awesome "hobby"

No, we don't use any silicone coating. For people who are using the bones as decoration, coating is a great idea. For a university, we don't want any kind of coating that could hide features of the bone, chemically change the surface, or anything else like that.

[PuppyFluffer]

interesting project!

[Arturo]

That's so freakin cool. Thanks for sharring.

[BreezeRuehls]

cool, I never stopped chewing my french fries......

[BioHazard]

cool, I never stopped chewing my french fries......

lmao!

[cguarino30]

awesome. Just awesome

[ina1032]

I hope to get more donations! A lot of universities who run these (usually they are larger, but we are just starting up) work with local zoos and aquaria to get really rare and unique specimens. My one Prof was telling me about a time when he was in grad school (at a different university) when a nearby zoo had an elephant die. They asked if the U wanted it, and they accepted, of course. They had no place to put it, so they had a crane lift it onto the roof, and let it rot away to get the skeleton. He said there were stalactites of fat dripping down the sides of the building, and you had to hold your breath when you walked near the building or on the roof.
I've actually been asking around on here for specimens too. I'm always looking for large fish, reptiles, etc.

Whoa.........wait..........hold the phone!! :eek3:
There was a dead rotting elephant on the roof of a building? Completely gross but so interesting....
Could you imagine flying by in an airplane or helicopter and seeing a dead elephant on a rooftop? :22_yikes: Weeeeeeeeird.

[deeleywoman]

looking at all the bone pictures, i'm suddenly having flashbacks to my first semester of drawing! >_<

that is really awesome, btw. i never thought so much work went in to making those nice clean bones i've been forced to draw for so long.

[DarrylR]

WOW! Raccoons must have great dentists!

[Fish-Addict]

Wow how fascinating!! You said about if they are larger than a cat you remove the brain, but how about smaller species? Dont you remove the brain then?

[BioHazard]

Wow how fascinating!! You said about if they are larger than a cat you remove the brain, but how about smaller species? Dont you remove the brain then?

Nah. The beetles LOVE the brains! Tons of moisture and yummy protein. I could actually leave in the brains on anything, but in the larger critters, it tends to make a smelly mess. The brain will end up liquefying and oozing out the foramen magnum. Very smelly and messy.

On a side note to those watching this thread, Im hopefully getting a fish and some reptiles from Jinx and LifelessForm. Those should be really awesome looking!

[serissime]

cool! do you know what they're sending?

[DrNo]

Love this... thanks for posting!

[jptjpt]

Very nice independent study project. I did my thesis on Zooxanthellae algae with an invertebrate biologist. Wasn't as cool as yours, but we had great a cookout. After we studied our clams and mussels subjects, we got to eat them ;p

[BioHazard]

Very nice independent study project. I did my thesis on Zooxanthellae algae with an invertebrate biologist. Wasn't as cool as yours, but we had great a cookout. After we studied our clams and mussels subjects, we got to eat them ;p

Lol, that's awesome! This is actually the lesser part of my independent project. The main thing I did was a poster project based on research correlating the bill and jugal bar of North American accipitridae based on current phylogentic data and feeding ecology.

[rinmouse]

thanks so much for sharing. Ahhh... I would love to go back to university... if only I could get someone to pay me to be a student, forever... that would be nice. Anyway, brought back memories...I loved my bio courses!

[piggy67]

cool thread,but i've said it before and i'll say it again,"your weird bio"...:lipssealedsmilie:...lol:raspberry:

[VivaLaVics]

Sweet!!!

[BioHazard]

cool! do you know what they're sending?

Yes, actually. I am hoping to receive a bloodparrot/flowerhorn cichlid from Msjinkzd. I am hoping to receive a bearded dragon, ball python, frog, 2 flying geckos, and chinese water dragon and a viper gecko. Some of these are juveniles, so we'll have to see how these turn out. It can be hard to do juviniles, since their bones have not completely ossified. The bugs will eat them whole if they can. It will give me a chance to try a technique for more delicate specimens.

[Dexmaster]

Update?

[rocker92]

x2

[BioHazard]

Not doing much at the school right now due to summer break. However, I just set up a mini-dermestarium. Check it out!
http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=200690

[DarrylR]

I put my question in the other thread :S.

[austinpetemo]

so do you do this for school work or any particular reason or do you just like taking things apart and looking at how they work. cuz when something breaks. i bust out a screw driver and take every little thing on it apart

[insectheart]

i am fascinated and so very envious you have the option to be doing this in an actual proper lab setting! those bones look great. i've only ever cleaned messy bones, and only with a lot of time and chemicals. those beetles make it look easy ;D

[Zaffy]

That is very ccool, where was this when I had my ichthyology class, I had to take apart and reassemble a Pacific Barracuda, Sphyraena argenta, that I caught. Putting the skull back together was a major headache.

Where is your lab? After we did this project my professor was looking into better ways to do the assignment.

[BioHazard]

so do you do this for school work or any particular reason or do you just like taking things apart and looking at how they work. cuz when something breaks. i bust out a screw driver and take every little thing on it apart

Yeah, I do this for the universities museum collection. Each specimen is labeled and boxed up, and can be looked at later for classes or studies.

[BioHazard]

i am fascinated and so very envious you have the option to be doing this in an actual proper lab setting! those bones look great. i've only ever cleaned messy bones, and only with a lot of time and chemicals. those beetles make it look easy ;D

Thanks! Unfortunately, right now we've been "evicted" from our proper lab setting because of construction. So, for right now, we are outside in a broken fridge. It still needs some work...

[BioHazard]

That is very ccool, where was this when I had my ichthyology class, I had to take apart and reassemble a Pacific Barracuda, Sphyraena argenta, that I caught. Putting the skull back together was a major headache.

Where is your lab? After we did this project my professor was looking into better ways to do the assignment.

Right now our "lab" is outside, lol.

However, your prof could very easily get some of these beetles. Just do some google searches on dermestid beetles and dermestariums. People sell colony starters with info on how to care for them.
Or, take the uber cheap route and catch your own beetles. When you don't have any dead stuff to feed them, they will eat any old meat (raw or cooked) and dog/cat food.

[lindsey crashed]

lovely...

nature is so many things... a couple examples... gross, yet impressive..

[MudskipperFan]

That really is kinda cool.
I wish I could chemical-ize things down to the bone.

Side note:


I just thought of the coolest art idea ever...

Skeleton tank.
Have normal community fish skeletons hung in a tank...
Crrreeepy.
Label it "This is what happens if you don't cycle your tank properly."

[VivaLaVics]

HAHAH that would be a really neat piece of art! Even if done small with like one of those "frame" aquariums that hang on your wall and are evil for anything alive lol.

[Death Pony]

Cool stuff! I never knew that gouramis had teeth.

DO you have any suggestions on how to clean a cat skeleton? One died in my back yard and I had the brilliant idea to paint it in bright colors and intricate designs.