Ph too high - need help!

[akg]

Hi --

I can't figure out what is causing the Ph level in my tank (10 gallons) to be so high. I know my well water has a high Ph, which is why I use almost all bottled water when I do an exchange. The bottled water is neutral - I've tested it. I would have thought that after using so much bottled water week after week, that at this point, there is very little well water in there and the Ph should therefore be close to neutral, but it stubbornly remains at 7.5. I have put a Ph lowering agent in there, the level comes down temporarily, but the next day it's back up. I can't keep guppies - they keep dying - and I've recently lost 2 tetras. What is my problem?? Any comments or suggestions would be truly appreciated!

-akg

[gmh]

I would not use the PH down chemical. It just causes temporary swings and stresses the fish.
Do you know the gh and kh of your water? A high kh could keep the ph from dropping even after mixing in much RO water. 7.5 Ph is nothing to worry about by the way. My Ph is 7.8 and that is after mixing in 50% RO to my tap.
If you keep on just adding RO water your Ph should eventualy drop to 7 but the lack of minerals in the water could be detrimental to the fish. I would test the water and work out some mixture of RO and well water so as to keep the parameters steady.
Ph is going to be somewhere over 7 unless you add lots of peat. And that can be a tricky undertaking.

[Canuck]

7.5 isn't high. The ph of your water won't pose a problem for any of the commonly available fishes. What is the gH or kH of your water? water change schedule?, how long did you have the fish? how long has the tank been set up? were there any specific symptoms before the fish died? Do you test for nitrates? How many fish are in the tank? Chemicals for adjusting pH are a bad idea and can be a source of deaths.

[bettabrat]

I would not use the PH down chemical. It just causes temporary swings and stresses the fish.


+1

The LFS talked me into that high ph you need ph down crap and after a month long battle w my ph going up and waaaay down and back up and down I gave up and tossed the bottle. I lost too many fish trying to "fix" the high ph of my tap water.

[Hurley]

7.5 isn't really high. Its more important for your fish to have a constant and stable pH rather then a "correct" pH (there really isn't such a thing as a correct pH). Fish, when acclimated correctly, will adjust to just about any pH. So long as your pH isn't swinging widely on its own, I suggest leaving it alone.

If you fish keep dying I suspect something else is at play. Like canuck asked, how long has your tank been set up? How many fish do you have? Tell us about how you do water changes and tank maintenance. What are your water parameters? Ammonia? Nitrites? Nitrates? Do you quarantine any new fish? Knowing these things will help us figure out whats killing your fish.

[akg]

Thanks for the comments. The tank has been set up since July '08. We originally had goldfish, but switched to freshwater tropical fish in Sept. Ammonia, nitrites, nitrates - all zero. The gH is around 30 and the kH is around 40 (ppm). I know the fish need some minerals which is why I put some well water in when I exchange - which I do weekly, 40-50% exchange.
Regarding the fish themselves - the guppies looked bad before they died - couldn't swim properly, or they were just hanging around the bottom. I had 2 which lasted for a couple of months before they died, and since that time I can't keep them for more than a few days, so for now, no more guppies. The tetras showed no symptoms (that I could see) before they died. One of the tetras that died (sometime today, as a matter of fact - my kids are going to be so upset when they get home from school!) we had since Sept. when we changed over to tropical fish - so this was completely unexpected. The other was relatively new - one of two black neons we got 2 weeks ago. It seemed OK one day, but it was dead the next. So right now there are only 4 fish in there - all tetras. I'm beginning to feel like my tank is cursed.

Any thoughts? Thanks --
akg

[KarlTh]

Your water is very soft for guppies. Tetras will be a better bet. What are the ammonia and nitrite like? Forget about pH for now; it really isn't that important.

[akg]

The ammonia, nitrite and nitrate levels are all zero. My well water is actually hard and we treat it with a water softener. The gH in the tank is low because I've been using mainly bottled water when I exchange because of the Ph. I'm so confused. The people at the pet store have made a big deal about the Ph, claiming that's what's killing the guppies. And until a few days ago, the tetras were doing great, but I've recently lost 2.

[krytan]

Is your tank heavily planted? A cycled tank should have signs of nitrates.

I agree with everyone else about your PH, best to just leave it alone. I have a PH of 8 and sucessfully keep a variety of fish. I would also stop using bottled water and wouldn't bother with the RO water either, they are only uneccessary expenses.

[Reframer]

Agree, I have a ph of 8.4 and still can keep most things except those fish that specifically require soft water such as discus, etc.
Water softner is fine, just don't add extra salt.

I think the changes in water and ph is what caused your problems. Once I had several fish die when I tried to do the exact same thing by adding bottled water. Just stick with one water source and things will be fine. Also, do you know if your bottled water has anything else in it such as high levels of phosphates?

When you add your bottle water, do you make sure to match the temp of the tank within 2 degrees?

[Wycco]

Relieved to see people with 8.4 and 8.0 pH having success with fish. I have been having some concerns about pH just like the original author.

I need to get some liquid test- but I was a little concerned with my tank, currently being cycled reading either a 7.8 or 8.0 (stick on disk)- fresh out the tap. I was worried that my play-sand substrate, or slate rocks were buffering the water somehow.

I do plan to get a more accurate test kit when I'm about ready to add fish. I keep reading on here (on different threads) people saying don't worry about pH as long as it is stable- yet I read articles on fish and most say they prefer 6.0 to 7.0 or thereabouts.

If an online article says they prefer 6 to 7 and I have 8... how bad really is that?

[akg]

Thanks again for the input. I do not have live plants in the tank, and all the ornaments were purchased at the pet store. I do not have shells or coral. My husband will be happy to hear the advice about not bothering with the bottled water - the folks at the pet store advised me to use it. I have no idea about the phosphate level of the bottled water, and I leave it in our boiler room for a day before I intend to use it so it's warmed up a bit. Regarding nitrates - sometimes I do see a little indication on the test strip. I assume the tank is cycled as it's been established for several months. We switched from goldfish to tropical in Sept., which was a big change, but still - that's 7 months ago.
So if I'm going to stop using bottled water, should I gradually increase the amount from the tap? Or should I just use all tap next exchange (which I plan to do Wed. 4/22)? Or maybe use all tap, but only exchange 25% instead of my usual 40-50%?

Thanks -
akg

[colinsk]

Don't stress about pH. If you look at waters that have lots of plants you will find the pH to swing wildly in the course of 24 hours. I could site some lakes but the point is the pH parameter is just one parameter that needs to be thought of in a group of many. Having a pH of 7.8 and a kH of 1 would mean something totally different to your fish than a pH of 7.8 and a kH of 10.

Make sure there are no toxins in your well water. Prime will make sure of that for you. Be consistent about your change schedule and having some hard water plants could not hurt if you like to grow plants.

When you change to all well water do it a little at a time. Perhaps a 10% change each day for a little while.

[Hurley]

I'm a little worried that your nitrates are 0. Like mentioned already, a cycle tank should have a nitrate reading. What's your filter maintenance?

Also, ditch the test strips. In my experience, they are inaccurate. Get yourself a liquid test kit. If you print out the online price, Petsmart, and I think Petco as well, will price match and you will save some money.

[jpappy789]

I have to agree with what has been said about the pH. I keep a variety of community fish with hard water without any problems. I also echo the concerns about 0 ppm nitrates. I would get some liquid tests to find out for sure.

[akg]

Thanks again for your helpful comments. Colinsk - could you clarify your comment on a high Ph with a low kH and what that would mean to the fish? And regarding the well water - we had the well tested when we built the house, so I would assume that we don't have any toxins. I'd think we'd be getting sick if that were the case.

So starting tomorrow, I'll start doing small changes and using only well water. I'll look for liquid tests online (I don't think the Petsmart near me has any) and I'll see what happens in a week's time.

Thanks again to all for your comments and feedback!
- akg

[WhiteDevil]

Mines 8.2 and there are no issues with any of the fish

[akg]

What fish do you have? Any guppies? That's really what I want - make my tank safe for guppies. The people at the pet store keep telling me that 7.8 (which is what they've tested my tank water at) is too high for guppies.

akg

[jpappy789]

Guppies will thrive in that kind of water (high in GH/KH/TDS)...those store people have no clue what they are talking about. I would take whatever they say with a grain of salt.

[colinsk]

Thanks again for your helpful comments. Colinsk - could you clarify your comment on a high Ph with a low kH and what that would mean to the fish? And regarding the well water - we had the well tested when we built the house, so I would assume that we don't have any toxins. I'd think we'd be getting sick if that were the case.


I can't really without getting itno a bunch of boring chemistry. To really over simplify things, think of kH as the battery and pH as the voltage. If you have a really big battery and you make a load it will not change the voltage. If you have a small battery and try to power a city it will kill the battery.

kH is a battery that can "buffer" pH. If you have distilled water you can add the tiniest amounts of acids or bases and make very big pH swings. If you have lots of kH then a little acid or base here or there goes unnoticed by pH.

Remember your fish have to live in the water so toxins are a little different. A little heavy metal in your diet would go un-noticed but in theirs could build to a problem.

I personally don't think fish really care much about pH per say. I think TDS is a more important measure of what water they like. I have read studies of lakes that have pH swings from 6 to 8 everyday based on the CO2 levels in the water. Yet fish do just fine. I am likely a minority in this opinion.

[K8lee]

I agree with those members who have written to say that bottled and RO water are needless expenses, that 7.5 is not a very high Ph, and that all the swings in Ph are stressful for the fish.

The main thing about guppies - they don't tolerate fluctuations in the Ph. Although they require higher Ph for breeding purposes, they do quite well in neutral water provided their diet is rich in both protein and vegetable matter.

Providing a consistent water chemistry is preferrable to ideal parameters, and chosing the fish that will do well in your tap water is easier and less expensive than trying to manipulate the chemistry every time you perform water changes and top-offs. Test your well water regularly, as the chemistry can change rapidly during high rainfall and drought as well as snow melt.

[jpappy789]

I agree with those members who have written to say that bottled and RO water are needless expenses, that 7.5 is not a very high Ph, and that all the swings in Ph are stressful for the fish.

The main thing about guppies - they don't tolerate fluctuations in the Ph. Although they require higher Ph for breeding purposes, they do quite well in neutral water provided their diet is rich in both protein and vegetable matter.

Providing a consistent water chemistry is preferrable to ideal parameters, and chosing the fish that will do well in your tap water is easier and less expensive than trying to manipulate the chemistry every time you perform water changes and top-offs. Test your well water regularly, as the chemistry can change rapidly during high rainfall and drought as well as snow melt.

pH fluctuations are minor compared to changes in TDS, although generally they go hand in hand.

[amyezar]

Wow, I've learned a lot myself reading this thread. I love AC!!! Thanks for all the good info.

[KarlTh]

Colinsk - you may be in a minority, but you're dead right. How the "pH swings kill fish" myth continues given the fluctuations found in both natural lakes and planted aquaria I do not know, but it's extremely pervasive. Sudden pH changes simply do not bother fish; I move fish from a pH 7.4 QT tank to a pH 6 - 7 (depending on time of day) planted, CO2 injected, peat filtered display tank and they adapt to the pH change via water mixing in just a few minutes with no ill effects.

It's a myth that's hard to counter, especially with the industry making so much money selling pH adjusting snake oil.

[akg]

Please forgive my ignorance - could someone explain what TDS stands for? Thanks again for all the comments.

akg

[krytan]

Please forgive my ignorance - could someone explain what TDS stands for? Thanks again for all the comments.

akg
Total dissolved solids.

[mel_20_20]

Total Dissolved Solids (TDS) are all compounds and elements dissolved in water. They cannot be filtered out. TDS affects other water quality measures such as Hardness, Salinity, and Conductivity.

I love this subject but I'm still trying to understand the complexties of it.

Search the threads. There are some very lengthy discussions by KarlTH and DrVader about ph, TDS, osmotic shock, and GH and KH. Very educational.

[mel_20_20]

Here's a link to a pretty good article on the subject of TDS.
http://www.water-research.net/totaldissolvedsolids.htm

This is an excerpt: "Total dissolved solids (TDS) comprise inorganic salts (principally calcium, magnesium, potassium, sodium, bicarbonates, chlorides and sulfates) and some small amounts of organic matter that are dissolved in water."

This is from an article by Wilkes University, Center for Environmental Quality, Department of
Environmental Engineering and Earth Sciences

[akg]

Thank you all for this information. I'm trying very hard to wrap my brain around all of it! At any rate, I did a small exchange this morning using only well water, and I'll keep doing this for a while.

akg

[A. Nonymous]

Colinsk - you may be in a minority, but you're dead right. How the "pH swings kill fish" myth continues given the fluctuations found in both natural lakes and planted aquaria I do not know, but it's extremely pervasive. Sudden pH changes simply do not bother fish; I move fish from a pH 7.4 QT tank to a pH 6 - 7 (depending on time of day) planted, CO2 injected, peat filtered display tank and they adapt to the pH change via water mixing in just a few minutes with no ill effects.

It's a myth that's hard to counter, especially with the industry making so much money selling pH adjusting snake oil.

I think the reason the myth persists is that a ph swing is usually accompanied by something that is harmful to fish (i.e. build up ammonia, build up of fish wastes, overdose of CO2, etc...). It's not actually the PH swing that kills the fish, but the underlying cause. The PH swing is just more evident because it's very easily measured.

[KarlTh]

I'm sure this is the case. You'd think, however, that the evidence of pH swings in natural and artificial environments caused by photosynthetic uptake of dissolved CO2 would nail it, though, wouldn't you?

[paperdragon]

Heh, I wish my pH was 7.5. that'd be great for my snails.

I agree with the others, forget messing with the pH, just use the tap water and if it stays stable then try getting more fish. Guppies can handle 7.5 no problem as long as its stable.

[akg]

Once again thank you for all the responses. Today I will do a 3rd small exchange using only my well water. I'm getting a liquid test kit, and when I feel things are stable, I'll try some more fish. So far the 4 remaining tetras seem to be doing just fine.

akg

[KarlTh]

Heh, I wish my pH was 7.5. that'd be great for my snails.

I agree with the others, forget messing with the pH, just use the tap water and if it stays stable then try getting more fish. Guppies can handle 7.5 no problem as long as its stable.

They can handle a tank which swings from 7.0 to 8.0 and back again every 12 hours as long as TDS doesn't change.

Fluctuating pH being inherently harmful is one of the myths.

[jpappy789]

I agree with Karl. pH is not directly harmful to fish within a large range.

[KLGFCG]

My 2 tanks' pH run between 8.2-8.4 and I keep guppies, angelfish, a variety of cories, rummynose tetras, diamond tetras, otos, and a dwarf gourami without any problems. The only fish I'd be nervous about putting in my water would be discus and rams, although I've heard reports of tank-bred specimens of both species that do okay in higher pHs than they've traditionally been kept at.

Another thing to consider might be the guppy stock. I tend to have high guppy mortality after purchase even if the fish looked healthy at the store. Guppies are pretty much the only fish I have this problem with - purportedly sensitive species like rummynoses and otos thrive, the supposedly hardy guppy lasts a day. :confused: I finally have a respectable group of survivors and they're reproducing well enough, but I don't like to think how many didn't make it out of QT for no good apparent reason.

Once your water chemistry is sorted out, you may want to try getting a few large pregnant female guppies. Even if Mom doesn't make it, if she lasts long enough to drop some babies, you'll probably end up with some who make it.

[KarlTh]

You would need to be nervous about discus or rams if the water was hard (which it probably is), not because of the pH.

[jenazen69]

I have a ph of 7.8 in my tank. My guppy just had babies. They were eaten by my rams, but she did give birth. I had bought 12 guppies, and she is the only one who survived. I have since bought another 2 pair with 2 additional females. What was the male to female ratio on your tank? Sometimes they die from stress. I try to keep 2-3 females per male.I think there is something wrong with guppy's in general that causes them to be weak. It could be all the breeding for specific colors has tainted the gene pool. If you arn't real picky on how pretty they are you might want to consider mixing in some wild guppys to strenghten the gene pool.

[akg]

Hi --

I've followed the advice I've gotten and things have really changed in my tank. I've done all the little water changes so the tank should pretty much be only my well water at this point. I've added nothing - no pH anything, no algaecide, no nothing. I got my liquid test kits and here are the results now: the pH is up to 8.2, ammonia is zero, nitrites are zero, nitrates are 5.0, GH is around 53.7 and KH is 125.3. According to the information with the test kits, my tetras should be in trouble (test kit literature says they like acidity), but they're absolutely fine. Then again, you've all said pH levels aren't so important so long as they're stable - or that's what some of you have said. I mean to say that the general consensus is that pH levels aren't the only important factor.

I'd still like to get some guppies, but I don't want to commit fishocide. (And to respond to Jennifer C. - I never got females because I didn't want to get into breeding. I had guppies as a kid, and they had babies like crazy, but it was also a 20 gallon tank and my current tank is only 10 gallons.)

So - any thoughts on how the current environment in my tank might affect over-bred male guppies? Or any recommendations on other small fish that would do well in my well water?

Thanks again for everyone's responses!

akg

[jpappy789]

Good to hear your tank is doing well akg!

I would maybe look into a local breeder if you are worried about your water. Most likely they are raising and breeding the guppies with similar water.

[akg]

Thanks jpappy. I'll have to investigate about a local breeder. And now I am wondering if I should get a female guppy to keep a male guppy company. If I only have one pair, and I let nature take its course with regards to the fry, then I probaby won't get overcrowded. Hmmm...

[kalabreeze]

We also have well water, PH from ther tap is 8.4 and I kept Petsmart guppies (males) for 6 months without any problems. I do not add anything to adjust PH, the only chemical I use in that tank is Prime and that is it.
I really think all your problems were because all these products you used to lower your PH. I am sure if you get guppies now they will be fine in your water with high but stable PH:)

[7itanium]

7.5 is NOT a high PH lol

mine is a steady 8.0 and my fish do just fine

[akg]

My pH is stable at 8.2 now. I tested the water (with my handy-dandy LIQUID test kit) 2 days after a 40-50% exchange and I just tested again (4 days later - I'll do my weekly exchange tomorrow) and all levels of everything are exactly the same: ammonia zero, nitrite zero, nitrate 5, GH 53.7 and KH 125.3. So maybe we'll try some guppies again. One pet store owner once suggested dripping some of my water into the bag from his tank over an hour period to get the fish acclimated. Does anyone think that makes a difference?

Thanks to all --
akg

[coach_z]

akg - glad you got all that stuff sorted out. what your store owner told you is the absolutely best and most amazing method out there for acclimation. do a forum search for drip acclimation and you will get a lot of results.

you have a very good/smart shopowner who was recommending that one

[jpappy789]

Here's some info on drip acclimating.

http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=154736

This would probably be a little overboard for LFS guppies. I've only gone this far with shipped fish. But the concept is the same.

[akg]

Thanks for the info on drip acclimation. That was very helpful. I went to the pet store today and got everything I'll need to do it and got some more tips from someone at Petsmart (they had just gotten a delivery and were actually doing this with their new fish - so I got to see it in action. One thing I found interesting - they had placed small containers with the new fish inside large buckets so if the water overflowed it didn't make a mess on the floor.) So maybe after school tomorrow I'll take the kids to the pet store and we'll give it one more try with the guppies. I'll let you know how it goes...

Thanks again for all the help!

akg

[sushiray]

Hey AKG - this is a late reply - I suggest don't buy anymore fish - dump the water you have now - use your tap water - cycle it for a few days - then re-start adding fish - either quarantine new fish in separate smaller tank with meds or mix in 1/2 your tank water with the bagged fish - let them acclimate for an hour or so. then fish them out & deposit. discard LFS water. this is what I did when I first started my tank. In fact - I broke the major rule - I started my tank on water conditioners & introduced the fish the same day - to my surprise they all survived! only losses were a small rainbow shark being dominated by larger red tail & albino sharks!

[paperdragon]

Hey AKG - this is a late reply - I suggest don't buy anymore fish - dump the water you have now - use your tap water - cycle it for a few days - then re-start adding fish - either quarantine new fish in separate smaller tank with meds or mix in 1/2 your tank water with the bagged fish - let them acclimate for an hour or so. then fish them out & deposit. discard LFS water. this is what I did when I first started my tank. In fact - I broke the major rule - I started my tank on water conditioners & introduced the fish the same day - to my surprise they all survived! only losses were a small rainbow shark being dominated by larger red tail & albino sharks!


Sorry but that's not a good idea since akg still has other fish in the tank. I think it'll be fine the way it is.

[akg]

Yes - I have 4 tetras that are doing quite nicely. I have no desire to harm them! What I did, on advice from the good folks who read my first post, was to do a series of small exchanges over a number of days to get the tank back to just well water, and doing it slowly ensured that the tetras would handle the change to their environment, which they did just fine.
Today I took the kids to the pet store and we picked out 2 guppies and 2 glow fish - bright red and bright orange and the guppies also happen to be yellow and orange, all very colorful! - and as I write my tank water is dripping into their container at a rate of about 1 1/2 drops/second and so far so good! This was much easier to set up than I feared. I got air tubing, a gang valve, and suction cups to hold the tubing in place. The gang valve is usually for regulating air flow from an air pump, but it works just as well in reverse controlling the drip. So I cut a short piece of tubing, attached it the output side of the valve, and secured it in the tank with a suction cup. Then I cut another piece of tubing, attached it to what would normally be the input side of the valve, got a suction cup ready, started a siphon, closed the valve part way to slow it down to a drip, and secured it with the suction cup in the container with the new fish (which were swimming in enough of the water from the bag to give them some room). The container is sitting in a bucket to prevent the water from overflowing onto the floor. So far the fish seem to be fine. The drip's been dripping for about an hour, and the only problem is that it may not be done before my son's bedtime! (The tank is in his room.)
So I'm really hoping that the guppies are OK and they survive my well water pH. Wish us luck!

Thanks again to everyone for all of your great suggestions!

akg

[rocker92]

they should surive just fine in that PH and hardness. i have 8.4 and about 250PPM hardness and i even have a cockatoodwarf cichlid!!!

[akg]

Well, 24 (actually 25) hours later and the 4 new fish seem to be doing just fine. The last time I put guppies in the tank (just floating and dumping) by the next morning one of them was in trouble and dead the following morning. Last night I ended up dripping the water for almost 3 hours. I guess 1 1/2 drips/second was on the slow side. I sped it up at one point because it was getting so late. At 9pm, my poor son was so exhausted he couldn't keep his head up (he's only 4 1/2.) The pH tested between 8 and 8.2 - not quite as high as the tank, but it was time to call it quits. So I netted the fish and said goodnight. Happily, everyone is doing well today, but I think I may get 2 females to keep the male guppies company. The drip method was really so easy - I will never float and dump again.

[Temeraire]

Most people suggest having several more females than males, so that the males don't constantly harass the same female.

[akg]

That makes sense, but I now have 8 fish in a 10 gallon tank. They're all quite little, but if you go by 1 gallon/inch of fish, 10 is the maximum amount of fish I should have in there. Which do you think is more important? Following that rule or keeping the guppies happy?

[KarlTh]

The rule is utter tosh. Forget you ever heard it. It could only work in a universe where volume increased arithmetically with length, rather than with the cube of length.

[akg]

So how many fish can you keep in a 10 gallon tank without having to exchange the water more frequently than once a week? And how many female guppies would you recommend for my 2 beautiful males?

Thanks again for all the great info!!

akg

[KarlTh]

Alas this is a "how long is a piece of string?" question. All you can do is suck it and see. Usual recommendation is twice as many females as males, but frankly I don't find that the females are that bothered by the males' attentions.

[paperdragon]

I wouldn't bother with females at all unless you really want to breed them. My male guppies seem just as happy by themselves as they did when they had the females in with them.

[akg]

Ahh... a difference of opinion. I don't really want to breed, and if I did get females I would let nature takes its course, as it were, if they did actually have babies. But I'm still curious - if the 1 gallon/inch of fish rule is bogus, how many fish can live in a 10 gallon tank before the biological filter would be overwhelmed?

[colinsk]

I have platies and not guppies. I would keep 3 in a ten gallon tank and no more. I keep more than 30 fish in my ten gallon but they are quite small. They all don't weigh as much as 2 platies.

[KarlTh]

Ahh... a difference of opinion. I don't really want to breed, and if I did get females I would let nature takes its course, as it were, if they did actually have babies. But I'm still curious - if the 1 gallon/inch of fish rule is bogus, how many fish can live in a 10 gallon tank before the biological filter would be overwhelmed?

It depends on the filter, the fish, the feeding...

[akg]

Well, I have 4 tetras, 2 glow fish (danios, I guess) and 2 guppies - that's only 8, and they're all very little. So you're saying I could get 3 or 4 female guppies and not have a problem. Anyway, so far, the guppies are doing just fine. I'm so happy! Again - that you all for helping me solve the problem!

akg

[gmh]

What kind of tetras do you have? They may get bigger, as will the danios.

[KarlTh]

Well, I have 4 tetras, 2 glow fish (danios, I guess) and 2 guppies - that's only 8, and they're all very little. So you're saying I could get 3 or 4 female guppies and not have a problem. Anyway, so far, the guppies are doing just fine. I'm so happy! Again - that you all for helping me solve the problem!

akg

It depends. How high is the nitrate level before you do water changes? How frequently do you have to change water at th the moment to keep it under control?

[akg]

First - I have 2 neon tetras, 1 black neon, and 1 gold tetra.

Regarding nitrate levels - last week, I tested the water 2 days after an exchange, and then the day before I planned to do my weekly exchange. It was the same - the nitrate level was 5. Perhaps I don't need to do weekly exchanges, however, this way I feel like I can keep the gravel from getting too dirty, because even doing 40-50% exchanges, there's still gunk left behind that the siphon doesn't get up. I don't mind doing it on a weekly basis, I just don't really want to have to do it more than that.

[Cluunox]

just my thoughts but i would not be in a hurry to add more fish. you have doubled the tank load and i would let it sit for a couple weeks to make sure the extra feeding is not creating a slow build in extra ammonia and give the biofilter time to catch up to the new load for sure. i would think it will take a while for the new feeding and waste levels to have a full effect on the tank. if nothing else the rate your nitrates increase should go up when everything stableizes from the new fish load. if you can go your full time between water changes as normal when it levels off without getting close to 40 ppm nitrate then you should be able to add more fish just strictly on a filtering basis. as far as fish needs that depends on size and how active, territorial the fish are and there are others here with much more knowledge in those regards than me.

good job with getting your tank stable. hope everything goes well with your fish from now on. thse guys know their stuff for sure i always learn a lot reading their advice in these situations.

[akg]

Thank you for those comments. I'll test before my exchanges and see how the levels change over the next couple of weeks. So far, the guppies seem fine without any female companionship.

[akg]

Well, I was bad this week and didn't get to do my weekly exchange. I tested the day I should have done it, and the levels were unchanged. I was hoping to have time today, but unfortunately didn't. So it's been 9 days - I just tested - and ammonia is zero, nitrites zero, nitrates 5, pH still 8.2. The extra fish don't seem to have made any difference. Is it time to get a few more fishies??

[akg]

We had a tragedy today - one of the guppies died. I noticed he was sluggish this morning when I fed them. This guppy was always right there waiting to be fed, but I didn't see him right away this morning. Some mornings I've noticed the fish take longer to "wake up" than other mornings (I've seen the neon tetras look very pale at first and regain their color right before me eyes) so when he finally did emerge I thought everything was OK. But when we got home at the end of the day, I didn't see him. After carefully looking around, I saw him belly-up at the bottom. I immediately tested, and all the levels were the same, except the pH had crept up to 8.3 from 8.2. (Which is a mystery because I haven't added anything to the water.) I have a hard time believing that that's what killed him. The other guppy (a lyre-tail, and supposedly more sensitive) is fine. I was getting ready to add a few more fish, but now I'm not sure. Anybody have any thoughts? I'd be very grateful for any comments.

akg