Cycling Issues

[nicshoe18]

Hey everyone! Still new to the forum. I've combed through tons of posts and have no answer to my problem. Cycling has been extremely fast for me until now. There are fish and live plants in the tank. Ammonia and Nitrite spiked within ten days. Now Nitrate is at 40ppm and Nitrite is maxed out at 5.0! New tank.

Problem: Nitrite will not move going into third week now. Have done two water changes to momentarily drop the nitrite levels, but they just climb back up in a couple of days. I've tried increasing aeriation, reduced feedings, and now water changes. Nitrates are obviously on the rise but Nitrites won't go anywhere. My swordtails however have been showing signs of bloating. I do a water change and the swelling goes down within half a day maybe. But as soon as Nitrites get high again, they start to swell up.

I can't seem to figure this one out. Is there anyone that might be able to help?

[1oooop]

hmm, perhaps you are overstocking your tank.

do you have ammonia readings?

how is your stocking?

[nicshoe18]

Sorry, still new to the boards, Couldn't find replies, email notifications, my posts, etc.
My appologies for the double post!!

As in other post, bioload was added in middle of cycle. I detoxified chemically the remaining ammonia, Nitrites unaltered and continued to rise. This makes six fish on the tank's first cycle. Right now, ammonia levels are trace, and I mean very trace. They barely even register, yet theres just a slight hint of green. I know this is going to be a daily/bidaily maintnance issue, I'm just not sure what I'm supposed to be doing until things calm down a bit.

[colinsk]

The nitrite spike can be the scariest. It is much longer than the ammonia spike. Keep doing big water changes and it will go away. It may be a couple more weeks.

[Hebily]

You should be doing at least 25% daily water changes. If I somehow wound up in this situation, I would be doing one 50% water change every 12 hours. I would also add Seachem Stability ASAP at 3xdose, and continue on the reccomended dosage. What size is the tank, what fish do you have, and how many?

[nicshoe18]

Planted tank, maybe 1/3 of the tank planted

30gal.

2 swordtails, 4 black skirt tetras

I have been doing 30%-50% wc's every 2 days. Swordtails will start to show signs of bloating, then I'll do a wc. Everybody is behaving normally, swimming normally, no gill discoloration or gasping for breath. Just the swelling. I've cut back on feedings and increased aeriation to try and speed up the process a little. Should I be doing wc's only or should I be siphoning the waste during the water change?

[Hebily]

gravel vac can't hurt, but the ideal would be to do the waterchanges before the fish show signs of problems. I really reccomend upping your water changes to at least daily. As long as you properly condition the water, and equalize temp, you can't change it too much. (assuming that the fish haven't adapted to bad water, which yours haven't had time to.) Seachem stability will bring your nitrites down quickly, so that you can start slowing down on the water changes. Cycle also works, but in my experience, not as well.

[Kashta]

The nitrite spiking stage is really the most hectic phase of cycling and it's the longest lasting. It's not uncommon for people to do water changes once or twice a day through the worse of this just to keep the fish alive. Hang in there.. it does get better.

You do need to siphon out the waste building up in the tank, btw. Just avoid making radical changes to everything until the cycle is done. And only use tank water when cleaning your filter media.

Best of luck!

[OldMan47]

If you are seeing 5 ppm of nitrites, do several 50% water changes until you get it below 0.25 ppm. You have fish in the tank that are suffocating because the nitrites interfere with their ability to use oxygen just like carbon monoxide would do to you. You never "wait" for nitrites to come down in a fishy cycle, you change water and drive them down. There is no good reason not to do large daily water changes and get your nitrites under control.

[nicshoe18]

Day 5 of 30% daily water changes and still no change in Nitrite. Nitrite still above 5ppm and now Nitrates have dropped below 20. Any thoughts?

[invertebrater]

like it's been suggested, you should get seachem stability and do bigger water changes like 50% or more even every 12 hours not just daily.. if you don't feel like wasting water use it to water your plants.. :)

[Hebily]

what test kit are you using? are your fish still getting bloated?

and yes, fish water* is awesome for plants.

*do not use water from a marine aquarium on plants. Salt is not good for garden plants.

[Star_Rider]

the % of the water change should have am immediate impact on the ppm of the nitrite.. ie: 5 ppm nitrite do 50% wc and you should have about 2.5 ppm nitrite.

keep in mind that in hours this reading will change as more nitrite is added by the fish /food etc.
this is why many will do multiple water changes during the cycle.

btw you can add conditioners like prime which may lock up/detox nitrite

[nicshoe18]

I've been told about 5 different things to do. As well I've also been told massive water changes at the 50% mark more than every other day causes serious distress and should be done in the 25-30% range if doing wc's daily. THIS is why I opted for the more conservative route because the "LIKE ITS BEEN SUGGESTED" suggestions have been all over the place as what and what not to do.

API test kit. I'm only guessing that Nitrites are maxed out, levels do not change after immediate wc, though Nitrate levels have greatly diminished. bloating seems to go up and down. some days they look good and others they are a little more round. behavior has not changed a bit, no one looks stressed. tetras are a little pissed cause I cut back on food a little. they no longer school and each has claimed and defends an area of the tank where they patiently wait for food.

I've been a bit leary about chemically detoxifying the water. I've really been striving for a more natural approach to ensure bacteria colonies get to the levels they should be. However if you think this is the appropriate time to do so, I will. I was always told to not do wc's during the first cycle. I wish I had joined the forums a little earlier as I have found that this practice is more common than I was led to believe.

Star, Hebily, and many others... thank you for constructive feedback. I'll keep up with your suggestions and keep you posted on the progress.

[Hebily]

It's awesome that you care enough about your fish to be here asking these questions. Many people don't. On that note, I hope you realize that what follows in this post is not intended to do anything except clear up where you feel that you have been given opposing information.

Prime will detoxify ammonia and nitrites, but they will still show up on tests, and they still feed bacteria. I would definately use it and stability asap. Stability will ADD the bacteria to help your cycle!

nitrites change when you do a water change, but don't indicate a change because:
your reagent is faulty,
or, more likely,
you are at over double the max indicated on nitrites before you do your water change.

You shouldn't do water changes during your cycle. You should cycle w/o fish. Sense you wound up cycling with fish, you must do many waterchanges or they will die.

Large water changes can be a problem. BUT only if your fish have not had a waterchange in a long time. If you routinely change your water, you could do 75% twice a day, and it wouldn't cause problems.

A POSSIBLE cause of high nitrites: a dead fish. I've been told in the past that although ammo, ites, and ates are all products of decomposition, certain forms of decomp produce more of one than the others. to me, this makes sense. I've been told that a dead fish left in a tank can cause a nitrite spike, w/o greatly affecting ammo or ates. Obviously, over time your bact colonies will grow, consume the ites, and convert them to ates. Your plants will consume both, and water changes will remove both. So, what I am trying to say, abbreviated, is: A dead fish that you have not found may be causing your nitrite spike.


So, the abriged version of this post:
I reccomend dosing prime and stability ASAP.
I reccomend testing your water, doing a 50% water change, immediately testing your water, if still above .25ppm ites, doing a 50% water change, immediately testing your water, it still above .25 ppm ites, rinse and repeat. Do this until you indicate less than .25 ppm nitrites. BUT make sure your water is conditioned with dechlorinator, and that it is the same temp as your tank water before adding it.

[invertebrater]

yep what he said :lol:

Oh and just to be sure (you might already be doing this), dechlorinate your water outside of the tank before putting it in. that way you aren't killing the bacteria you've worked so hard to get in there with the chlorine in the tap water.

[nicshoe18]

Done and Done.
Just finished a 50% change. I'll pick up some stability tomorrow. I'll test again in a couple minutes once things settle down in there and get you caught up.

Water dechlorinated before putting in and same temp always!

[Star_Rider]

if you utilize a water changer like a python you can add conditioner for the volume of the tank.
the temp needs to be close but does not have to be exact..the fish are not that sensitive to the temp. (in some species cool water triggers spawns)

remember dilution is the solution to pollution(I really hate this saying but it does apply)
.
ammonia , nitrite and nitrate readings will be affected with water changes and the changes should be immediate.
a 50% water change will only reduce the ammonia, nitrite and nitrate at most by half.
repeating water changes will slowly decrease the concentration of the toxins.
the point is that you should try to get the concentration to below .25 ppm
if you are at 5 you either need to do a really large water change or several 50% water changes..
btw I have changed as much as 75 % in a single change with no ill effect on the fish.

[nicshoe18]

Updates:
Water changes have been going great, still no change Nitrite levels though, all of my Nitrates have vanished. All fish are accounted for, no dead.

I dosed Prime and Stability last night. I wake up this morning and everyone is stressed like you wouldn't believe. Swords are listless on the bottom of the tank, Tetras are manic, and everyone has Ich. I tested the water, Nitrites still above 5ppm.
I will go ahead with 50% water change as planned for this afternoon.

Another question, if you dose with Prime and still will show Nitrites on your test, how are you ever supposed to know how high your Nitrite levels actually are?

[DSR]

I have started doing two 33% water changes each day because my nitrite keeps creeping up. I do one at 5AM and then another around 8PM. Although it is kind of a pain, I don't mind as long as it means I have a better chance of having a health tank. We are three weeks into the tank (I think) but I am discovering that I did everything wrong (kind of). We inherited the tank so i assumed it was good to go, gave away the big fish but stocked too many small fish I think. So until I get another tank the water changes will continue until things stablize.

[jenazen69]

I have taken a 75 gallon and a 29 gallon down to 2 inches of water above 2 inches of gravel to move tanks in the past. The fish are fine. As long as the filter media and gravel stays wet your good bacteria should be find. The important thing is to get within acceptable range with the nitrites before permanent damage to your fish. You have to understand that some of the information you get is conflicting because not enough questions were asked, and particulars given before giving the advice. You were picking up the general rule without seeing the when this happens scenarios. And then there are the people who do things their own way who have had success, that may not necessarily work for you. Advice is just that, as with all life there are no rules or norms that are set in stone. Fishkeeping practices have evolved though the trial and error process and it continues to improve though the care and attention of dedicated people who genuinely care about the health and well being of their fish. So take all advice with a grain of salt and try to look for a consensus before taking action.

[nicshoe18]

Thats exactly what I did. Thanks to the two or three people that have been helping me the whole way through, I was able to to take a general majority vote for applying proper action. Often times, many make assumptions before reading the entire thread. The whole scenario has been laid out for about a week with all of the necessary info and then some to make a proper diagnosis. The largest of those posts was a combatant to those that feel the need to leave off color comments in suggesting that I'm being a hard headed newb and not taking anyone's advice when on the contrary there were suggestions that ranged too far apart to take a majority vote.

My current situation however is worse than it was before. I had a feeling that dosing my water with a bunch of chemicals on top of large wc's would be a little too much for them to handle. I have agreed though that the large wc's were not an issue and have increased to up around 50%. Even with the Nitrites as high as they were for so long, they have never looked or acted like this and now just want to get their environment to a state of stability. I'm curious however if water changes so soon after dosing Stability will throw away the bacteria that I introduced into the tank? Did they have time to attach to the filter over night or should I wait a day to do another wc give them time to get to the biofilter? My instincts are telling me right now that time is of the essence and in order to avoid permanent damage or death, wc NOW is required. What are your thoughts?

[jenazen69]

I would say losing a little bit of the bacteria you just added from what is still suspended in the water column is less of a concern than the nitrite poisoning. Do the water change again, Almost all of the bacteria will be in the filter or the gravel.

[Hebily]

Keep up on the water changes, and follow that stability dosing schedule for the next week. Part of why they tell you to dose daily for a week is that they expect some losses in wc's. Make sure that you dose the incoming water with an amount of prime appropriate to the volume of water you are adding. The improvements in chemistry might cause short term stress, but they are way better off if the water stays as pristine as possible from here on out.

[nicshoe18]

Ya thats what I was thinking. Thanks, I'll post this afternoon with some updates.

[nicshoe18]

Ok, things are a bit more manageable now.
Nitrites are down to .25ppm but Ammonia levels are back up for some reason, .25ppm
My sword is off the bottom of the tank and back to her lively self again.
Now just have to fight off the ich.

[nicshoe18]

What a battle! Been dosing with Stability on the regular and when Nitrites get too far out of control I'll dose with Prime. Tank still won't cycle. I'm guessing patience is the only cure at this point.

Diseases:
I started doing 2 50% wc's, but with the chemicals it was just too much stress on the fish. Battled Ich in the whole tank pretty effectively, cured it in about 5 days. After the Ich, everyone got finrot almost immediately after. Almost gone, one fish still has some trace left. Now I wake up and the whole tank has pop-eye. I feel I'm losing control of the whole thing here. Any thoughts?

[JohnM]

My tank is going through the same thing.The nitrites would not go down even after Wc's and I had just a little bit of measurable nitrates that was from the tap. After waiting for a couple of weeks for the trates and doing WC's my fish seemed to be getting stressed. So I decided to get a bottle of Tetra SafeStart. I did a big WC,vacced the gravel big time, then added the SafeStart.I did this last Tueseday,it took 2 days to get some good measurable trates finally but my trites were still sky high. Yesterday my trites were at 1 finally and trates were at 20. It was hard but I havent done not one WC since I used the safe start as per my lfs guys suggestion. He has been helping me with this whole process and it has been an UPHILL process from the start. I have a 55 with a wet/dry and a ext70 HOB filter. I put up this tank up in the beginning of April and it isnt done cycling yet.Im hoping it is done today or tommorow so I can do a WC and clean the gravel.

Hope my experience helps:thm:

Good Luck:)
John

[CollarCrazy]

What a battle! Been dosing with Stability on the regular and when Nitrites get too far out of control I'll dose with Prime. Tank still won't cycle. I'm guessing patience is the only cure at this point.

Diseases:
I started doing 2 50% wc's, but with the chemicals it was just too much stress on the fish. Battled Ich in the whole tank pretty effectively, cured it in about 5 days. After the Ich, everyone got finrot almost immediately after. Almost gone, one fish still has some trace left. Now I wake up and the whole tank has pop-eye. I feel I'm losing control of the whole thing here. Any thoughts?

Prime shouldn't stress your fish, use this with every water change as it dechlorinates as well as detoxifies. It is incredibly safe.

Dosing with Prime is less stress to your fish than not when your nitrites or ammonia are high! Same with large water changes.

The fish are getting sick because of all the stress from the cycle. I read the thread but didn't see how many fish you had or what size tank? I guess at this point you can't get rid of them, but it might still help to know.

There's really nothing else you can do at this point but treat the diseases that are popping up and keep doing water changes. Sorry to hear about everything, unfortunately this is what often happens to fish when a tank isn't cycled.

How is everything going now?

[nicshoe18]

Finrot is almost gone. Only one fish left has popeye symptoms but that's probably from consistenly high nitrites. Tank is still stalled out after 4 weeks now. Have tried just about everything and still keeping up with water changes, but no signs of nitrite conversion yet.

In regards to Prime, it was my conclusion that dosing the whole tank with Prime to detoxify nitrites with the large water changes was what started the whole string of diseases. I always dechlorinate incoming water with Prime. What I'm referring to is dosing the whole tank with additional amounts when nitrites get too high. I just think it was too drastic of a change in water conditions for them to handle.

7 fish: 5 black skirt tetra, 2 swordtails
30 gal planted tank, since Ich showed up water has been brackish, 3-4 tsp. salt
Fighting diseases with Maracyn and Maracyn-2
Been trying to leave conditions steady to ensure bacteria growth, wc's about every three days depending on behavior of fish and algae growth

[CollarCrazy]

Glad the fin rot is going away. I still think adding extra Prime is safer than free floating nitrites and the disease is much more likely to be caused by the poor water conditions. This is just based on the tanks I have seen develop and what I have read regarding safety.

Do you know anyone with an established tank that could give you part of their filter media? This might help speed up your stalled cycle.

[Hebily]

From what I understand of marycin, it is killing your bacteria. I would reccomend keeping up on the water changes, and when you are done with the marycin treatment, dosing the stability again. Is there a date on your bottle? I've never had it take that long... tank should definately be cycled before the end of the week. I do use a double dose of it, because my qt is so small it is hard to measure the right amount. I haven't had to use it on a tank bigger than 5 gallons yet. Collar's right... if you can get media from an established tank, that will help alot... just don't waste it putting it in while you are killing it with maracyn. Again, I'm not certain that marycyn will kill your bac, that's just what I remember someone saying.