View Full Version : a crawfish ??
Hey everyone.. I have been working on my first 10 gallon fish tank. I have collected some plants from the lake I live on and have it set up a really good looking tank. The conditions are well and my first fish are doing great. I started with 8 dime to nickle size tiger barbs. They are very cool swimming together
all as a group.. I am sure these fish will get larger but how much larger? .. right now they seem to have all the room in the world they could need... I don't want to over crowd them. They are so small now If I get more fish they will probly be the same kind as I like how they look and act and that they are all simular size.
I have a gravel bottom and added two snails a white and a black shell meduim size. I also want to add a couple of muscels... is this alright? I think they will help to filter and keep the tank in order like the snails.
When the Fish get full grown will they eat the snails?
My last question.. I would love to have a crawfish or one of the fresh water fiddler crabs. Could I have one in this kind of tank? I am nervous the crawfish will eat a fish or the snail...
dethjam316
12-01-2003, 12:25 AM
the crawfish will eat anything it can catch. be wary of them. it's probably not a good idea, really. i have one in a tank with feeder guppies, and for some reason he doesn't eat them, though i'd like him to. and i'd kept him with one particularly aggressive blue gourami for awhile, but i don't really recommend it. their appetite depends on the temperature...warmer temps equal more death. mine did spend a good summer picking off zebra danios.
fiddler crabs are a different story. they typically won't attack fish, but unlike crawfish, they NEED a place to exit the water ie dry land, a rock or something. this makes keeping them a little more difficult. they are also master escape artists, so a completely sealed tank is a must.
dethjam316
12-01-2003, 12:28 AM
oh, missed your other questions. i didn't know you could obtain fw mussels? i don't know anything about them, but they will likely produce as much waste as they filter in, so if you keep them, keep them cuz you like them, not for cleaning. same with snails.
tiger barbs will not eat snails. if you want to keep the snails alive, don't add any loaches to your tank. all loaches get too big for a 10g anyway, really, so it shouldn't be an issue.
tiger barbs only get like 2 or 3 inches in size, i think. i haven't kept them, so i'm not positive, but i know they stay relatively small. nonetheless, 8 is a good number for your tank, i wouldn't much else to it...maybe a couple cory cats for the bottom, but i'd suggest keeping it to a minimum.
Fiddler crabs are really brackish water, not fresh.
The crawfish will destroy any live plants you have and be a risk ti the fish in a small tank. They are best in species tanks.
I think your tank is already overcrowded.
welp thanks for the tips.. I didn't think the crabs were fresh water but the guy at the pet store swore they were. So thats good to know.. I wasn't sure abou tthe crawfish.. living in Lousianna for awhile I thought it would be cool to have one..
But I will abstain. I don't plan to add anymore fish I like the 8 dime size barbs I have. They are really not much bigger then the feeder gupies. The two snails are doing well... I have a really crazy question a white one is going to the top at the water line and leaving little black dots....this is either poop or eggs.. I am not sure which... anyone know? looks almost like ground peper... as far as I can tell my other snail is't doing this.. but he lives at the bottom mostly. I think the muscles are neat I dig them up at the lake I put a few in my dad 50 gallon tank and he likes them they look really neat against the offwhite gravel he has.
Overcroweded??? I am lost everywhere I read said 1 inch per gallon.. I have 8 fish none are even an inch long. and the snalls are not the jumbo kind. I thnk the longest fish I have would be a half inch.. I think they are drawf tiger barbs or just babbies still.
anyway to tell? I guess If they do get large I will probly add a few to my fathers tank.
The fish swim all over the tank in there group so I don't really want to put any other type fish in the tank.. they seem happy and energetic...
The so-called inch per gallon rule is based on full adult size of the fish, not fry. Tiger Barbs should be about 2 3/4" standard length, 8 x 2.75 = 22 inches of very active fish in a 10 gallon tank. Your fish will be stunted and unhealthy unless up-graded.
Just FYI, HTH
dethjam316
12-01-2003, 3:46 PM
RTR, good point on the "rule." of course, some of throw out that rule and the square-inches and surface area rules, and let common sense rule the day. i think it's a little too "doomsday-ish." provided there is good filtration and regular weekly water changes performed, 8 tiger barbs should be okay in that tank. the stunted growth thing is partly a myth; in almost all cases the size of the tank itself is not a direct factor. again, i wouldn't add much else to that 10g, but tanks have been successful with more than 8 tiger barbs in them. it's all about balance, and a greater bio-load (within limits) can be tolerated given higher levels of filtration and more water changes.
Dangerdoll
12-01-2003, 4:54 PM
I personally wouldn't have that many barbs in a 10 gallon with the addition of corys because of the bio-load. The maintenance as far as the water changes alone will have to be pretty big and you'd have to be religious about them or risk major fluctuations of your chemistry.
so I really don't know what to do.. maybe they aren't tiger barbs.. they are tiger soemthing. If you can think of a two dimes or two pennies stacked is about the size of the fish.. they really are not much bigger if at all then the feeder guopies the guy sells 10 for a dollar... They are smaller then the minows I scoop out of the pond. I wish I could show you a picture..
is there such thing as a drawf barb? These little fish cost me 80 cents each.
any ideas about the snail things? I am not sure what the snail is leaving behind at the waterline of the tank.
The guy at the store recomeded I start with 7-10 of these little guys for my tank so I chose 8. He also told me I might want to get a little bit of a larger fish or 2 but to come back in a week or so (that was after I had picked out 8) you think I just have really young tiger barbs.. or possibly some other kind of fish?
In a 20" long tank, a school of Tiger barbs does not have room to swim, much less school. I would dispute the statement that a ten with 8 tigers could ever be called successful. Perhaps it could be mantained in a non-toxic situation with alternate day changes or some such excess labor, but you would never see normal behavior, so what is the point? Barbs in general are active to hyperactive fish. If you are not going to give them room to swim and interact with their conspecifics, why keep them at all?
I would likely house that group in QT in at least a 15 or better a 20-long, but it could be done for a limited period. Certainly not with more fish - Cory cats would likely be harassed in that tank.
Poor advice was given at the LFS, and is being supported here.
duck- Tiger Barbs, like many of our fish, are transported and sold at small size/young age. It is far cheaper and in fact is better for the fish, most are better able to withstand the changes involved in shipment, sales, and establishment in a home tank while young. But we do need to make allowance for what the fish will be at maturity. This is where your LFS let you down. At this stage/size, they are probably fine in that tank briefly. But their chances for a normal life are not good at all.
Slappy*McFish
12-01-2003, 7:45 PM
I really have to agree with RTR here..mostly because of the activeness of Tiger barbs more so than the potential size. There are many fish that grow to the size of Tiger barbs(ie. dwarf gouramis), but don't have near the energy level. Tiger barbs like to 'run' so to speak...and need plenty of room to do so. It's akin to keeping certain breeds of dogs, some are much more active than others and need a big back yard. I think your barbs are fine in the 10g as of now at their current size, but if you plan to keep them for awhile, it would be better if they were moved to larger quarters as soon as they reach the 1 1/4" - 1 1/2" size. Personally, I wouldn't keep them in any tank under 36". A great alternative to tiger barbs in a 10g would be a school of Rasboras, instead.
dethjam316
12-01-2003, 10:03 PM
i think people on this board love to preach about the ideals of tank parameters, but i see plenty of tanks posted on AC that at a glance seem WAY over a traditional limit. it seems to me that far more people talk the talk then actually do the walking when it comes to adequate stocking. where are the people who have posted those tanks on this thread? i recall several threads in which board veterans (if you will) defended their particular tanks which seem way overstocked. and they put up some pretty good arguments for exceptions to traditional stocking, if the aquarist if willing to make certain committments.
would *i* keep 8 tiger barbs in a 10g? probably not. overcrowding a 10g is asking for trouble much more than overcrowding a larger tank, where parameters don't swing so drastically. but tiger barbs aren't exactly thick-bodied, heavy waste-producing fish. 8 in a 10g with a pair of cories? i just don't think that's the drastic, doomsday proclamation you guys are saying it is. now, poor advice indeed was given at the LFS if they're saying you should come back for some "bigger fish." i am not supporting that. but 8 tiger barbs in a 10g...that's just not so bad.
besides, talk about bad advice, RTR...you're the one professing the one-inch per gallon rule, which is just misleading. certainly, i don't think i need to point out the implications of that rule. it's been on this board so much. but, what's worse, 8 tiger barbs or 1 10-inch fish in a 10g?
Slappy*McFish
12-01-2003, 10:29 PM
:confused:
I have never supported the inch per gallon rule, it has too many restrictions which are commonly ignored (applies only to slender-bodied fish under 2" standard - which Tigers are not, must be based on the full adult size of the fish, does not deal with compability or activity - a big thing in this thread - etc.).
I have no, repeat no, overcrowded tanks and have not in more decades than most folk on this board have been alive. I know better, and do better.
If we are playing with personal attacks dethjam316, why don't you tell us about how many of your fish live longer than their "normal" wild lifespan in your tanks (mine do routinely) and about your successes with hard to keep fish, and your general contributions to the hobby from your broad and deep store of aquarium experience and knowledge? My article on Tiger Barbs on this site went in in 1999. Where are your articles?
Anyone who thinks that you can (or that it not so bad to) keep 8 Tiger Barbs and some corys in a ten is not yet ready to leave the Newbie forum, IMNSHO.
Wippit Guud
12-02-2003, 8:59 AM
Also remember, a large majority of people asking for tank ideas are doing this for the first time (or at least asking here for the first time). For a first-time setup, you want to have something easy to look after. So people suggested the easiest stocking limits of the tank.
Overstocking a tank takes a little more patience, a lot more work, and extra equipment (such as double the suggested filtering) if you want the fish to thrive.
It is important to remeber that high bioload doesn't always mean the same thing as overcrowding. People have high bioload or even extreme bioloads quite often but this is generally in bigger tanks that proper maintanence can cope with.
alright something has to have happend today when I woke up I saw one missing.. I figured it was swimming in the grass and I didn't notice t .. they are fast so I guessed Iw as mis counting..
Now today at lunch two more are dead.... so I have 5 of them and one seems to be "moving slowly" The water temp is around 75 the water was conditioned using the conditioner stuff first and left running for over 24 hours like the tank instruction suggested.. I ran it for about a day then changed filter and ran it 12 hours or so.. plants where added the first 12 hours...
the water is ckrystal clear my snails are doing great.. one has left eggs at the rim.
I used a declorinate treatment to make sur the water was fine when i first added it before all the filtering even.
the first day or so I feed the fish that night then 2 times the next day.. just a small pinch.. (I had noticed the fish pecking the plants so I decided they needed more.. I also read somewhere that fish could be fed twice a day but atleast everyda) today I found one dead.. I have had the fish for around 4 days now and they seem to be going down hill.
The snails actualy ate a dead one pretty much completly and seem to be fine.. !!! I am SO LOST. AND UPSET HELPPPP
Well it could be an illness. Generally fish illness' do not affect snails and the same is true for the reverse. Test your water if you can and then do a water change (20%) just to be on the safe side.
You only need to feed your fish once a day and then I generally don't feed them once a week. Overfed fish can get sick. Plus if they are eating the plants that is fine, a lot of fish need veggie food as well.
Look on your fish for obvious signs of illness like white spots or bloating etc...
dethjam316
12-02-2003, 5:11 PM
Originally posted by RTR
I have never supported the inch per gallon rule, it has too many restrictions which are commonly ignored (applies only to slender-bodied fish under 2" standard - which Tigers are not, must be based on the full adult size of the fish, does not deal with compability or activity - a big thing in this thread - etc.).
then why, rtr, since you're such an expert on this subject, did you offer the advice of that rule in this thread? i've tried to keep my comments away from personal attacks. you accused me of poor advice, and i merely pointed out that your post included some pretty poor advice yourself. that's no more personal than your comment.
now, duck...did you cycle the tank? dropping 8 fish in at once in any tank (under 50g anyway) can be a recipe for disaster, it's quite a shock to the bioload. also, putting plants from the lake near your house can introduce diseases and other things if they are not quarrantined.
Wippit Guud
12-02-2003, 5:22 PM
Size rules aside, I wouldn't have one "hyper barb" in a 10g, let alone 8. Those things need a little space to perforn their aquabatics...
I am now officially trademarking the word 'aquabatic', as it's not listed in dictionary.com - go me for new words!
The larger of the ones seem fine.. the smallest one that was acting lathergic at lunch time.. when I returned hjome from work was aginst the filter pump tub.. said **** he died too.. bt i tried to scoop him out thinking it was deaad and being sucked into it.. he just swam off.. a little dazed at first... but was able to swim away.. he is still slow moving though...
I am going to try to not feed them tonight and see what happens... I will cycle 25% of the water out too.
Dangerdoll
12-02-2003, 5:39 PM
Originally posted by Wippit Guud
I am now officially trademarking the word 'aquabatic', as it's not listed in dictionary.com - go me for new words!
atta Gawd!!! :dance
Duck.... have you cycled this tank before adding the plants and fish? If you have, have you tested the levels (pH, ammonia, nitrate, etc.)?
I had never heard of cycling.. I thoguth it meant to run the aquiruim with water and a filter in it for 5 hours before adding fish... I did do this... (its what my book says to do) but it mentions nothing about water condiion and nitrates and ph and any of that.
Nor did the local fish store man.. welp I think I changed out about 3 gallons or so of water tonight... they seemed to ju,p back to life almost instantly... I swear one was doing back flips after this. well not quiet.. but he did move faster up and down the tnak then Ihave ever seen them do. I plan to probly change out the water as much as possible. I work at walmart and didn't see the biospira stuff.. I will check agian tommorrow.
Now I am wondering, is it better to change out a gallon or so everynight.... should i try more then that or should I do like I've read 25% once a wekk or something like that all at once?
Also I have a burning question would I have been doing better just to get the lake water and sand from my lake instead of using city water and artifical gravel.. I actually wanted to use the sand from the lake but my girlfriend like the semi polished peagravel we are using.
Thanks agian everyone.. I think my fish are doing better..
Slappy*McFish
12-02-2003, 9:55 PM
Well, there are numerous threads in this forum concerning cycling...I highly recommend you read as much of them as you can and do a search on google for 'aquarium cycling'. This is basic information 'every' aquarist should know.
Never use water from a lake or pond in an aquarium. It may contain any number of nasties that are very undesirable in an aquarium.(diseases/pathogens, algae spores, predatory insect larvae, pesticides, agricultural run-off, fertilizers, etc, etc)...same goes for sand...you just don't know for sure what may be in the sand.
As far as doing water changes right now, do daily water changes of around 10-15% to keep toxic levels of ammonia to a minimum. I would have done a 50% water change initially, then the daily 10-15% changes.
Keep us updated.
You won't find biospira at WalMart. Not even every fish store sells it right now as the setup cost is pricey. They need a special refrigerator. And don't be fooled by the other bacteria in a bottle products. Chances are they will not work. The best thing for you to buy is a test kit. Use this to test for ammonia and nitrites. If those are detectable then a water change is needed. If you can't get ahold of those then do a small water change often at teh beginnign liek you mentioned. Luckily a smaller tank is easy to change water in. All you have to add is some water conditioner. It should take about 5 minutes. Good luck with that.
dethjam316 - Do you understand the concept of threads? Post are presented serially in chronologic order as they are entered.
If you review the thread, you might notice that the origator of this thread, duck, has stated in the post immediatelly preceeding the one of mine in question (which appears to upset you so much) that he had stocked his tank by the inch per gallon rule, or rather, by his mistaken understanding of that guideline. My post was simply an immediate response to his, expanding on the so called guideline and what it would allow or disallow in his setup. Is that clearer and more comprehensible to you? I did not then (or ever) support the use of that guideline. In fact I made a point of labeling the guideline as "so called" to imply my disapproval, but perhaps that subtlety went over your head. If this does not clear up your misunderstanding, please repost and I will continue trying to help you understand.
dethjam316
12-03-2003, 3:13 PM
everyone has moved on to helping duck, while you're continuing to attack me, making yourself look like rude and spiteful in the process. and i'll leave it at that.
issue at hand: i second the need for a test kit. adding a large number of fish will profoundly effect the conditions within the tank, and the likely ammonia spike probably claimed some victims. again, adding plants from a lake without quarantining them is a major risk, as well, and you may introduce diseases into the tank, though i suspect the former is the cause in question.
I went to a diffren't store today... welp actually I went to 4 diffren't fish stores.. they all basically told me the same thing that the place I went was a bad place and that all the advice I was told seems to be either a bit off or blatently wrong to make a sale.. I searched for the biospria and none had it yet some had some other products for this but I decided against it.
One of the nicer stores (with some girls my age) seemed to care alot about there pets and know an aweful lot.. they asked me to bring them a sample of my water back... so I did and they tested it for free and recomended a fizzy tab to correct the ph and one for the amonia levels. They told me to just drop it in and tommorrow come back and they would tes thte water for me agian. I asked how fast the stuff worked and they said almost instantly... and I told her I was wanting a little crab. She told me that she wouldn't sell me a crab until we were positive we had the water taken care of first... so I got a water palm and some water onion plants and a couple of small hand made clay pots for the tank... one was really small and the other looked like a water piture the backside actually had a hole in it to make a cave for fish to hide in and get out of the turbulence... They look really neat and bring some cool color and detail to my tank.
It was good to know the employee was smart helpful and careing I liked the fact she said she wasn't going to sell me the crab until we worked on getting the water issue straight. *she was not rude or mean at all) I have found my new LFS
my tank has 5 tiger barbs 2 snails seems all is well. I am really wanting a crab or something for the bottom of the tank..
If I was to get one it would be the absolute smallest one they had..
at the LFS I fell in love with they had a tank with a big number of crabs as well as some really pretty black shark looking fish that had orange on there backs.. (don't remember looking at there names) but the fish swam near the bottom too and sometom went down to the gravel actualy touching the crabs.. they seemed to not even notice the fish.
If I read more or some other tell me it is a bad idea then I will probly aviod getting one.. the lady at the fish store told me they would be fine with the tiger barbs... and this was the same lady that gave me free water medicine and talked to me for about 30 minutes about my tank and all the information about fish and plants I could soak up. I know she wasn't trying to make the 1.99 off me for the crabs becuase she could have easily sold it to me today. and the fact she tested my water free told me she would do it agian and gave me the stuff to fix it so my other fish I baught somewhere else wouldn't die.
Slappy*McFish
12-03-2003, 9:27 PM
I'm just curious, what kind of crab are you thinking of getting? I suspect they are the little red fiddler crabs. I would recommend reading this article first, then decide if a crab is right for you.
http://inin.essortment.com/fiddlercrabspe_rslq.htm
Dangerdoll
12-03-2003, 9:54 PM
duck, you wouldn't remember if the shark you saw was either a rainbow shark or a red-tailed shark, would you?
(EDIT: additional text)
duck, if what you saw were either of these sharks (I'm thinking it's quite possible because of the coomon availability of them), it would be a bad idea to add either one to your current set-up. For one, both are pretty territorial, can get up to 5"-6", which is a bit large for a 10 gallon tank.
Wippit Guud
12-04-2003, 9:49 AM
Rainbows and red-tails are only territorial towards each other, would be fine alone. But yes, the tank is too small based on growth.
Dangerdoll
12-04-2003, 10:02 AM
right, they are territorial towards one another but can be territorial towards fish that are similar to them.
Wippit Guud
12-04-2003, 10:05 AM
I once watched my betta pick a fight with my rainbow shark... it just ignored him for about 10 minutes.
Then it suddenly grabbed him, slammed him against a rock, and swam away.
The betta came out after that :)