To Stir or not to Stir

[J_Vee]

Hello,

I changed from Crushed coral in my 30 gal tank to live sand about 1 year ago. In the past, I would vacuum the crushed coral to remove detritus and other waste.

Should I stir the sand periodically? Should I add a sand sifting fish or Invert? I have an engineer Goby(convict blenny) that moves the sand around but only in one small part of the tank. Thanks

J_Vee

[Ace25]

Depends on the depth of the sand, if it is only 1-2" then ya, you can stir it up during waterchanges. Nassarius snails are great for sand cleaning as well. Engineer gobys only move sand for building/rescaping purposes, not to clean the sand from my experience.

[boostnbuds]

I would vac all the debris that you can off the sand and stir it up a bit right before the last bucket of old water goes out. that way when you stir and kick up more particles you can still suck em out without removing all the water.

In my opinion turrning over the substrate periodically is good practice. I do this on all my tanks during water change time. One thing you learn the hardway is to shut your filter off before the stirring. Fine sand binds a filter motor like cement, and its just a pain to have to clean it.

[mcsassy]

Diamond (orange) spotted gobies do a good job of keeping the sand sifted and clean.

[cjtabares]

I would vac all the debris that you can off the sand and stir it up a bit right before the last bucket of old water goes out. that way when you stir and kick up more particles you can still suck em out without removing all the water.

In my opinion turrning over the substrate periodically is good practice. I do this on all my tanks during water change time. One thing you learn the hardway is to shut your filter off before the stirring. Fine sand binds a filter motor like cement, and its just a pain to have to clean it.

From what i have read this could have some negative effects on the tank if they have a deep sand bed. There is a gas, i forgot the name right now, that forms in spots of a deep sand bed that you dont want to mix around.

[Amphiprion]

^^^Hydrogen sulfide. I have had many sand bed depths and I never stir them mechanically. I allow the infauna to do that for me, which is why I promote as much diversity as I can. I also have lots of water motion to discourage settling pretty much anywhere.

[cjtabares]

Thanks Amp

[boostnbuds]

If you mixed up the sand on a regular basis as I have suggested you wouldnt have rotten pockets of filth in the substrate to create the noxious gas bubbles. But yea just let the garbage rot under the sand undisturbed until it comes out of its own volition some day. I was wrong this seems like the best option...

[fsn77]

If one of the reasons for having a deep sand bed is to promote denitrification (breaking down of nitrates), you do not want to stir anything beyond the uppermost layer mechanically. If there's a good variety and number of benthic inverts in the tank, there shouldn't be a need to stir even the upper portion of the sand bed. The bacteria that are involved in denitrification live in anaerobic areas -- stirring up the sand bed beyond the top layer would be counterproductive and only inhibit this process.

[thincat]

I would vac all the debris that you can off the sand and stir it up a bit right before the last bucket of old water goes out. that way when you stir and kick up more particles you can still suck em out without removing all the water.

In my opinion turrning over the substrate periodically is good practice. I do this on all my tanks during water change time. One thing you learn the hardway is to shut your filter off before the stirring. Fine sand binds a filter motor like cement, and its just a pain to have to clean it.
This is a bad Idea if you have a saltwater setup with a DSB. You will stir up sulfuric compounds in the sand that will kill your corals and/or fish.

[Amphiprion]

If you mixed up the sand on a regular basis as I have suggested you wouldnt have rotten pockets of filth in the substrate to create the noxious gas bubbles. But yea just let the garbage rot under the sand undisturbed until it comes out of its own volition some day. I was wrong this seems like the best option...

You are neglecting the fact that this isn't universal and doesn't happen in every single tank. It can't even be argued that it happens in most tanks. Beyond that, most sources of hydrogen sulfide are rendered nontoxic by being bound by iron. You can smell it, but the black deposits from iron (II) sulfide are insoluble.

Constant disturbance of the sand bed will discourage good diversity and make the sand bed potentially more prone to problems if regular maintenance isn't done continually. That being said, people have had plenty of success with vacuuming their sand beds. That is just far too labor intensive for my tastes and I've found it entirely unnecessary (and I have had continuous, unstirred beds for a long time. They would occasionally be disturbed by mistake and never cause an issue). fsn77 also has a good point. You have no valid reason to be sarcastic.

[Ace25]

So many opinions.. so varied. I fall in between them all.

Not once did the OP mention the depth of his sandbed, yet, a mini flame war is brewing already. Reality check. ;)

If it is a SSB, I have never heard of any problems "stirring" up the sand on a regular basis (monthly) because it is shallow, so the infauna that live in it are all the same type of infauna that live in the upper areas of a DSB. In a DSB if you stirred it up, you would 1. mix the infauna at the top down deeper, crushing and killing them and causing water problems and 2. release the gases from down deep into your tank. It is possible to stir a DSB as well, but it must be done sloooowly and only small spots over the course of days/weeks, not all at once like you can do in a shallow sand bed.

Personally, I am like Amph now, I don't have to stir my pristine white sand because my tank works well... but in my early days when my tanks were not setup as well I did have to stir things up by hand regularly.

[ToeJam]

You are neglecting the fact that this isn't universal and doesn't happen in every single tank. It can't even be argued that it happens in most tanks. Beyond that, most sources of hydrogen sulfide are rendered nontoxic by being bound by iron. You can smell it, but the black deposits from iron (II) sulfide are insoluble.

Constant disturbance of the sand bed will discourage good diversity and make the sand bed potentially more prone to problems if regular maintenance isn't done continually. That being said, people have had plenty of success with vacuuming their sand beds. That is just far too labor intensive for my tastes and I've found it entirely unnecessary (and I have had continuous, unstirred beds for a long time. They would occasionally be disturbed by mistake and never cause an issue). fsn77 also has a good point. You have no valid reason to be sarcastic.

reefkeepers site has a sand bed info linked on another thread that would be helpful and backs up Amps words also.

It also states having the proper organisms in the sand bed is essential ..especially DSB. Not having these critters allows the gas pockets to build up...and true you can release a toxic amount if you hand stir it...but no reason to do this if you had sand clean up crew to begin with.

I only find it necessary to siphon the top layer when you have a detritus build up...noticing cyano... yep..good time to remove the upper layer...by siphon. Noticing algae clumping sand with it in a thin layer...im impatient so I siphon it off to just get it out of my face :evil_lol:

[cjtabares]

If you mixed up the sand on a regular basis as I have suggested you wouldnt have rotten pockets of filth in the substrate to create the noxious gas bubbles. But yea just let the garbage rot under the sand undisturbed until it comes out of its own volition some day. I was wrong this seems like the best option...

If this was targeted at my response to what u suggested i did not mean that as an against you, i was just stating what i have read in relation to your response i apologize if it came off as offensive to you. I am not saying your way will not work I know there are many ways of getting good results in this hobby just do what u find works best for you.

[Amphiprion]

Personally, I am like Amph now, I don't have to stir my pristine white sand because my tank works well... but in my early days when my tanks were not setup as well I did have to stir things up by hand regularly.

This is what I was trying so awkwardly to say. You certainly can stir, vacuum, etc. shallow beds (I was actually assuming shallow the entire time in this case) and be perfectly successful. I was just saying that with a good mix of the proper organisms, good flow, etc., you don't have to do that. If people are more comfortable not leaving things to chance (nature can be a gamble sometimes) and vacuuming and/or stirring the sand, that is perfectly fine as well. I used to do it when I first had fine sand a good while ago. Just trying to add another perspective and explain why it works.

[ToeJam]

If this was targeted at my response to what u suggested i did not mean that as an against you, i was just stating what i have read in relation to your response i apologize if it came off as offensive to you. I am not saying your way will not work I know there are many ways of getting good results in this hobby just do what u find works best for you.

thats whats so great about threads in here =) many ways to go about things ...just try them see if they work for you. Understandable viewpoint and I try to keep that viewpoint myself.

Text sucks..and perception of the reader dont jive sometimes... Gota keep that in mind folks..

Good to see that you didn't get angry and cleared the air on what you were trying to say. I hate that to myself. Sometimes people misinterpret due to the lack of body language and tone of voice that forums don't produce =p

[boostnbuds]

I would like to state that I am uniformed. lol. When I had posted I didnt realize this was about saltwater. I have only freshwater setups. I read this post in the new post section and didnt bother to read under what forum it was listed. If my advice was bad I apologize.