New to fish ponds - not completely sure what to do [Archive]

PallasAthena

05-18-2009, 6:01 PM

I just posted over in the intro section. DH and I have inherited a fish pond from the previous owners of our new house. We didn't realize there was a fish still in there since they had moved out some time ago and let the pond run dry. When we filled it back up, we discovered that one goldfish (Rambo), or possibly a koi, survived. I'm still upset that they ran off and left their pet like that. I mean I know it's just a fish, but I happen to like fish, and nothing deserves that kind of treatment!

So now we're fish owners!

I'm going to take some time this weekend and see if I can get the pond in shape. I talked to a guy at the local koi farm and he gave me some advice. Here's the plan:
Put the fish in a bucket of old pond water in the shade
Drain the pond
Trowl out all the muck at the bottom. The koi guy said it was probably anaerobic sludge which is apparently really bad for poor Rambo, so we need to get that out of there.
I'll throw out the sludge saturated foam inside his filter, and hose all the sludge out of there. I already got new foam at Petsmart to replace it.
Clean the filter media really carefully and make sure that sludge is all gone.
Refill the pond and condition the water for a couple of hours.
Add my bacteria cultre gel to the foam/filter media.
Reintroduce Rambo.
Does that sound like an okay plan? I am hoping that Rambo survives all of this. I want to get him some little fishy friends and something to eat any mosquito larvai. It's a pretty small pond, so I'm not going to get too much.

Do I need to put gravel in the bottom or anything or can I add rocks later? Cost is a factor. This wasn't a pet we planned on having, but since he's here, we need to care for him in the best way we can. Because if this, I was plannin on doing a little at a time. Big tank overhaul this weekend. Add some rocks and plants later and then some fish. But the more I think of it, the more I think maybe I ought to go ahead and add the gravel now to give the good bacteria a little more to grab on to.

What are y'all's thoughts? Am I kinda headed in the right direction? Any tips on draining the pond? Also, I need to keep in mind that because they let the pump run dry, we need to plan on the pump biting the dust in the very near future. *sigh* Why can't people take responsibility for their pets? Yeah, it's a pretty pond and fish are nice to look at, but they're a responsibility, too.

ETA: This is the water conditioner (http://www.simikoi.com/subcat265.html) I got, and I can't find a link with the gel stuff. Basically, it's a gel that you squirt into the foam part of the filter to get the bacteria going. Is this good stuff? I figured if it was good for big, fancy koi, it would probably be just fine for my little guy.

bazil323

05-19-2009, 1:12 PM

What's the brand of the gel bacteria stuff? Many products are called bacteria boosters or starters, but often they are just dead bacteria which does nothing. There are only a few out there that actually work. The one that comes to mind is Tetra SafeStart, which used to be called BioSpira. I know there's a couple more that seem to work, but I can't think of them right now.

I would just gently rinse out the old filter media and put it back in to keep the bacteria going, unless it got completely dried out. If it's still wet, there's a chance that you might not have to cycle it again. I'd just take a bucket of old pond water, and then gently squeeze out the foam media until it looks like water would be able to pass through it. Then put it back in the filter and hang the new foam so that the water coming out of the filter passes through it. Run it like that for a few weeks and then you should be able to safely change the filter foam. I'm no expert on ponds, just starting one myself, but that's the method that I use for new filters on my aquariums. I would imagine that it would work for ponds as well. You could also try to get some gravel or filter media from someone else who has a healthy pond (perhaps the LFS?) to instantly cycle the pond as well.

PallasAthena

05-19-2009, 1:53 PM

Hm, thanks for the info. I will definitely check the brand on my bacteria starter and post the name.

The thing is with the filter, is that it was packed full of that black anaerobic sludge, which it seems like from talking to the koi guy is really nasty, toxic stuff. His suggestion was to get rid of all of that and clean the filter out really carefully. There's also a fairly significant amount of sludge in the bottom of the pond. It stinks really bad when the water gets stirred up. It's a pretty horrible way for this fish to live.

There will be some of the old water going back into the pond. Probably about a bucket-full, so hopefully that will help. Thing is, the foam really needs to be replaced ASAP. It's all decomposed and packed with the sludge. Bits are coming off. It's in bad, bad shape.

Wycco

05-19-2009, 2:13 PM

It is entirely possible that the previous owners didn't know the fish was still in the pond.

Pond fish don't always show up at meal times and one fish in a pond is going to find plenty of food- snails, larvae, algae, water beetles...etc. If the pond was that dirty they had probably thought him long-dead and not cleaned the pond in a long-long time... thus never discovering him.

Theoretically, the pond should be a lot easier to take care of than an aquarium and hopefully there will be some aerobic bacteria left alive on the floor or the edges of the pond somewhere so cycling won't take tooo long.

PallasAthena

05-19-2009, 2:20 PM

You know, as shy as this little guy is, you may be right about them not realizing he's in there. As soon as I peek over the edge of the pond he dives down under the filter or under some of the old leaf trash. I am going to need to be sure to give him a place to hide so he doesn't freak out completely and die after I clean out the pond. Is there any reason why I couldn't wash off some of the garden rocks really well and build him a little hole or put in a flower pot? Or are there too many risks in doing that with the possibility of garden chemicals and things?

Also, if I want to put rocks/gravel in the bottom, can I use general garden rock (like pea gravel only a little bigger) from home depot or lowes or do I need to get honest to goodness aquarium gravel from Petsmart or some place like that? I think that would look nice to have a nice rocky bed on the bottom of the pond. Would that be too much of a PITA to keep clean though or would it be fairly self-sustaining? I don't think one of those siphon aquarium vaccumes would work to clean out the pond gravel is why I ask.

Wycco

05-19-2009, 2:26 PM

If you put in pots- make sure they are the real terracotta kind not glazed or coloured... oh and make sure it is a pot that hasn't been used!!!!

Rocks will be OK as long as they are not calcium based. Granite is fine- limestone and marble will mess with the chemistry of your pond. Slate is good... sandstone is hit or miss... best not to risk it.

The test people say to use is dropping a little acid on to the rock (such as vinegar) - if it bubbles don't use it... I don't think this is 100% foolproof though.

Hebily

05-19-2009, 2:27 PM

Honestly, with that size goldie in a pond that size, as long as you do decent water changes, you shouldn't have to worry about the bacteria too much. Just make sure you test the water, and use water changes to keep ammonia below .25 (and as low as possible) until the biofilter comes back. Did you use the calculator on this site to get the pond volume? I remember the dimensions roughly, and it sounds plenty big to dilute the waste from that little goldie... roughly 75gallons from what I remember you saying...

also, :iagree: with what Wycco said... I wouldn't mess too much with rocks and stuff right now.. best to get things stable first... but a brand new unglazed, colored, painted, or finished terra cotta pot would be a great hiding place for the fish.

bazil323

05-19-2009, 2:31 PM

Oh, then yeah, replace the media. If it's breaking apart, then there's no way it will be useful. Not that it won't have good bacteria in it, but more that it's just going to be a mess. Plus, with the bad stink, that would tell me you've got to get that junk out. Go ahead and clean it good.

I agree with Wycco that the fish may have gone unnoticed. How big would you estimate the pond to be? If you're unsure on the gallons, you can post the length, width, and depth and approximate shape to give us an idea.

The old water won't carry much beneficial bacteria in it; they mostly live in the filter and the substrate (gravel, sand, etc.) as well as any other surface such as the sides of the pond, plants, decor, etc. There will be very little in the old water. But, the fish will be used to the old water and may go into shock if the water is suddenly clean. I'll let someone more experienced with ponds post on how to minimize that risk.

With aquariums, we recommend doing small (25% or less) water changes daily until the water is good (0 ammonia, 0 nitrite, less than 20 nitrate). I'd think that would be a big project for ponds, so I'm not sure what the best way would be to do that.

Sounds like you're pretty much on the right track, and it's great that you are so committed to giving the fish a good home! This hobby needs more people like you. It might seem like a big task at first, but it really gets to be quite easy once you've got it down. And it's so rewarding to see your good work pay off!

Hebily

05-19-2009, 2:36 PM

They make things for cleaning ponds that work well... It looks like a big gravel vac, but garden hose attaches to the out end, and there is a jet nozzle to create a suction. They are kinda expensive though... make it easy, but prolly a hundred bucks for one. Buckets work too.

PallasAthena

05-19-2009, 2:42 PM

Oh, thanks so much you guys. This is so helpful! I will definitely NOT grab one of the old pots in the yard for him to hide in. I'll be sure to get a new, plain one.

I don't think I can do a gradual water change. That wouldn't let me get the sludge up out of the bottom of the pond. Every time I tried to scoop it on Saturday (before I realized we had a little buddy in there), it just stirred it up and stank up the yard. I'm actually fairly concerned that the water change will kill him, but the pond really must be cleaned. He's survived so much that I am hoping he will survive this, too.

Where is the pond size calculator? I think the pond is about 4 ft x 2.5 ft mostly about 12" deep (the shelves), but with a much deeper well in the center.

The filter box likes to float and move around. Is there any reason why I couldn't put a couple of rocks to weight it down or would that block up the water intake too much? It's this filter (http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=productDetail&productId=8442-48650-MFBX500P&lpage=none). At some point I want to cut off the fountain and just have it run straight ot the waterfall in the back. It's a fairly good sized waterfall. The water flows for about 3.5' over rocks, so I would think that would be enough aeration for a pond this size.

Hebily

05-19-2009, 2:47 PM

Yeah, I don't like those fountains either... let me see if I can get you a link to the calculator. One possibility for the w/c is to keep the fish in a bucket of the old water, empty the pond, clean it, but don't refill it quite yet. put the bucket in the pond, and slowly add new water to the bucket. let it over flow into the pond. when there is enough water for the fish to swim in the pond, put the fish and his bucket water in the pond, and slowly continue adding water until it is full. This will make it a lot harder to dechlorinate, though...

bazil323

05-19-2009, 2:49 PM

Heh, took a long time writing my post I guess. Yeah, lots of people use those plain terracotta pots for "caves". I use them in a few of my tanks, and they work just fine. Like was said, just be sure that they are not glazed or colored and are new. Pots that have been used may have chemicals, etc. in them from the plants and any fertilizers or chemicals that were used. Best not to risk it.

Regular gravel or sand is just fine. Lots of people use playsand or pea gravel in their tanks since it's so much cheaper. It's the same stuff, just not sold in specialty shops, lol. Just make sure it's not treated with a mildewcide. You should rinse it off when you get home to get out any dust (just makes a big cloudy mess, no harm though and will settle eventually).

Wycco

05-19-2009, 2:49 PM

I've not had a pond since I was young- I've only had aquariums since- so I'm not sure if this is the right thing to do... but we had a couple of small ponds- about 6ft by 3ft- they only got water changes during warm months- then about 30% change every 5 or 6 weeks. (if that)

I don't know if they should have been getting more frequent cleanings. One pond only had tadpoles and plants in it- the other had a small load of goldfish and shebunkins (about 4 or 5 fish).

The fish lived that way for years and were very healthy they were at least 7 y/o when we left - at which point we moved to America and had to leave them behind.

Ponds should require less water changes than aquariums. I don't know if we cleaned frequently enough though.

We syphoned using a short hosepipe with a DIY piece of PVC attached to the end. (we lived on a slope so gravity was our friend- pond at top of our garden). We syphoned into a bucket to catch any tadpoles that got sucked up.

clb2196

05-19-2009, 3:15 PM

PallasAthena

05-19-2009, 3:26 PM

*waves* Hi! (It's CSGirl)

Sounds like you got some good info, I'm pretty clueless about ponds. Would love to see some pics when it's done!

I like Hebily's idea about refilling. If you're filling with a hose, would the water get aerated and thus dechlored like it does with a Python? Or just add some declor when you put the first water in, then add some as you go?

Hey CSGirl! GREAT forum! Thanks for pointing me over here.

I like Hebily's refilling idea, too, but I'm not sure how that would work. Would I condition bucket by bucket? How slowly would I add? As slowly as I would slowly pour/refill a bucket? Could it just come from the hose? I somehow think not. What would the logistics of this be?

Hebily

05-19-2009, 3:29 PM

clb2196

05-19-2009, 3:34 PM

Well, you could dechlor a bucket of water, and set up a small syphon to move the clean water into fish bucket. Or pour very slowly, wait a while (couple hours) and then do the next bucket. The idea is to do it as slowly as realistically feasable. The more slowly you add the new water, the less stress there will be on the fish.

Plus it will dechlorinate if it sits for a while.

Could you fill the pond with the hose, and wait for it to warm up? I have no idea how long that would take though. Otherwise, I don't see a problem using the hose.

Also, PA, if you're going to use a bacteria in a bottle, there are lots of mixed views out there, but SuperBac worked well for me. Not sure how much it would cost to get enough for the pond- I think it was maybe $15 for enough for a 50 gallon?

Wycco

05-19-2009, 3:37 PM

Even if spraying water in (or letting it sit) will remove chlorine it won't remove chloramine.

I hope there is a better way for removing chlorine than adding bucket by bucket.

I dunno if permenant marker is safe for pond life... If you do end up filling bucket by bucket though you could make a little inconspicuos mark every 5 or 10 gallons on one corner of the pond... that way for future water changes you can accurately judge how much water you change/add- by counting how many lines you fill up from.

I think prime is supposed to work really quickly (in minutes) and although adding already de-chlorinated water is best- you can... declorinate in the pond.

I don't think it is very practical for a pond to add the water already dechlorinated (unless you are adding bucket by bucket- which I hope you don't have to do because that WOULD be insane work).

Future though- if you know how much water you need to add- add the appropriate prime to the pond... then fill up.

There has to be some pond people here who can help!

Hebily

05-19-2009, 3:40 PM

Wycco

05-19-2009, 3:41 PM

Also, PA, if you're going to use a bacteria in a bottle, there are lots of mixed views out there, but SuperBac worked well for me

I was very disappointed in Seachem Stability.

Ammonia to Nitrite stage of cycling for me lasted two weeks. I would therefore suspect that Nitrite to Nitrate stage would last just over two weeks if left unhelped.

I started using stability at about the same time I started seeing Nitrites. It's been just over two weeks and I'm on the cusp of being cycled... I'm hoping to see 0 nitrites when I get home from work tonight (which would mean I'm finally ready)... I had 0 ammonia and < 0.3 ppm nitrite yesterday at the same time... so I must be close now.

Nonetheless- it took me as long for the 2nd half of cycling WITH stability that I would expect had I not used it.

The only product that seems to get universal approval is Biospira/Tetra Safe Start.

clb2196

05-19-2009, 3:43 PM

Even if spraying water in (or letting it sit) will remove chlorine it won't remove chloramine.

Right, good point.

I dunno if permenant marker is safe for pond life... If you do end up filling bucket by bucket though you could make a little inconspicuos mark every 5 or 10 gallons on one corner of the pond... that way for future water changes you can accurately judge how much water you change/add- by counting how many lines you fill up from.

Good idea! Maybe even tape or something, if you could get it to stay on.

Future though- if you know how much water you need to add- add the appropriate prime to the pond... then fill up.

That's what I do with my python, although the tank is never completely empty. But the fish wouldn't be going in right away anyway, so I don't see an issue there. It's just the temperature.

Hebily

05-19-2009, 3:44 PM

I've had great results with stability. Also, the second half of the cycle is the half that takes forever...

clb2196

05-19-2009, 3:52 PM

I was very disappointed in Seachem Stability.

Ammonia to Nitrite stage of cycling for me lasted two weeks. I would therefore suspect that Nitrite to Nitrate stage would last just over two weeks if left unhelped.

I started using stability at about the same time I started seeing Nitrites. It's been just over two weeks and I'm on the cusp of being cycled... I'm hoping to see 0 nitrites when I get home from work tonight (which would mean I'm finally ready)... I had 0 ammonia and < 0.3 ppm nitrite yesterday at the same time... so I must be close now.

Nonetheless- it took me as long for the 2nd half of cycling WITH stability that I would expect had I not used it.

The only product that seems to get universal approval is Biospira/Tetra Safe Start.

It probably helped that I had some plants (not as many as I do now) but with the plants + the superbac, I *never* saw any ammonia or nitrite the whole time. And I started seeing nitrate about 3 weeks in, I think it only took that long because of the plants, I still don't usually have much.

It's not optimal, but it a situation like this where fish in cycling isn't a choice, the only thing it hurts is your wallet. :lol:

Wycco

05-19-2009, 3:56 PM

clb2196

05-19-2009, 4:02 PM

True... in this case since there is a fish in- it can't hurt. How much do you need for a small pond though? Better get the large bottle!

Dunno if any other product has better success rate though (other than Biospira/Tetra Safe Start).

Yeah depends on the pond size. The 32 ounce (http://www.bigalsonline.com/BigAlsUS/ctl3684/cp18574/si3327001/cl0/superbaclivenitrifyingbacteriafreshwater32oz) treats up to 80 gallons.

PallasAthena

05-19-2009, 4:10 PM

Got it! Ok, fill the pond, and dechlorinate. Then add a cup full of the pond water to the fish bucket slowly... put a cupful of fish bucket water in lawn. come back in a bit. put cupful of pond water in fish bucket. Put cupful of bucket water in lawn. do this until you've added at least three times the volume of the bucket to the bucket. Then put fish in pond, bucket water in lawn. Fill bucket with new water, dechlor, add to pond. repeat three times. Done. That way, rambo gets the benefit of slowly changing water, and you get the ease of dechloring the whole pond at once.

I really like that idea! Also, I thought I would set the bucket down in the water so the temps can even out, so I wouldn't necessarily need to dump it on the lawn. Just add it to my pond when I'm done.

I also really like the idea of marking the side of the pond to know how many gallons it is. That's a great idea! It's sprayed with some sort of concrete material inside, so it would be easy to see the marks.

How about evap? What's a reasonable rate? I noticed today that the water level is about 6" lower than it was on Sunday. Part of this could be because I finally got the waterfall running, but I'm keeping a close eye on it. I live out in CA, but the weather's been cool and misty. We're close to the water, so it's the marine layer coming in-May Gray they call it. I didn't expect to see any evap with that weather, but I'm not sure. I'm trying not to worry that it's a leak. That would just be One More Thing.

Hebily

05-19-2009, 4:10 PM

Assuming an average depth of 1 foot, it is 75 gal. Average depth of 1.5 feet (which seems more accurate) gives 115 gal.

PallasAthena

05-19-2009, 4:12 PM

Assuming an average depth of 1 foot, it is 75 gal. Average depth of 1.5 feet (which seems more accurate) gives 115 gal.

I think that's probably about right. Anything wrong with assuming it's a little bigger for pump purposes and a little smaller for stock purposes? I know it's bad to have too many fish and too small of a pump/filter, but it's okay to err the other way, right?

clb2196

05-19-2009, 4:17 PM

I think that's probably about right. Anything wrong with assuming it's a little bigger for pump purposes and a little smaller for stock purposes? I know it's bad to have too many fish and too small of a pump/filter, but it's okay to err the other way, right?

Yup, always better to have a higher rated pump. And since goldfish aren't strictly schooling fish (right? I'm not a goldfish expert) you wouldn't really need to worry about stock. I think there's a general rule about how many gallons per common goldfish, but I don't remember what it is.

ETA: Just make sure with the pump it's not so powerful it's creating a whirlpool or current too strong for the fish. But I don't think that's a big worry with goldfish anyway.

Hebily

05-19-2009, 4:33 PM

no prob with over filtering, unless it's a jacuzzi. No prob with understocking at all. reccomended at least 15 gallons for some goldfish, 20 for others... I would put no more than 4 goldfish in there, just to be safe.

bazil323

05-19-2009, 5:22 PM

For the fancies that get about 8-10", it's recommended to have at least 30g. For others it's recommended 55g. Don't even think about koi as they need insane amounts of room! Considering that they get a minimum of 2 feet long, that would need a huge pond.

Anyway, I always overestimate the filter I need and underestimate the amount of fish I can get. That way I know that I'll have enough filtration and won't be overstocking.

For a 75g pond, I think 2-3 fancies would be it, and if you want the more stream-lined bodied goldfish like comets, only 1-2.

Btw, I used Tetra SafeStart for my 75g community tank. I did move my filters from my 16 along with everything else that was in that tank (fish, decor, etc.), so it had a head start, but it wasn't enough to cope with the size and addition of a few more fish. So I picked up a bottle of SafeStart for a 75g tank (I forget how many ounces that is), and it was less than $15.

PallasAthena

05-19-2009, 6:09 PM

Desertponder

05-20-2009, 4:24 PM

Personally, I'm going to highly discourage you from adding gravel to the bottom of your pond.
Rock/no rock in the pond debates can get quite heated on pond forums but since you are new to ponding I would suggest you stay away from rock in the bottom of your pond. It will be easier for you to maintain the pond and keep your water quality good. Waste and debris just collects in the gravel and can make for some nasty conditions unless you can keep up with regular maintenance.

PallasAthena

05-20-2009, 4:46 PM

Okay, here are some pictures so you can kind of see what I've got going on.

Rambo's pond
http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r233/Pallas_Athena2003/IMG_0575.jpg

A close up so you can see the shape a little more
http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r233/Pallas_Athena2003/IMG_0576.jpg

Rambo's filter/pump box (you can kind of see the black sludge that's packed in there
http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r233/Pallas_Athena2003/IMG_0578.jpg

And finally...

Rambo! The little survivor fish
http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r233/Pallas_Athena2003/IMG_0577.jpg

Any ideas on what he might be? Common goldfish? How about the pond size? 75 gal? What do y'all think?

Hebily

05-20-2009, 7:36 PM

I'd say no more than 75. IMO, the notch out of one corner compensates for the deeper part...

That water fountain should be plenty for aeration. Personally, I'd ditch the sprinkler head fountain.

BTW, you see the moss growing on the fence? When you have to replace the fence, I would do something to prevent that... Stainless steel fence, a really thick coat of polyurethane, or put the verticle rock part out further... something. IMO, that moss is going to be the death of that fence.

msjinkzd

05-20-2009, 7:46 PM

as for adding water condition for refill, just add it to the volume of the pond (pond strength prime is great) and then fill it up. You don't need to use buckets. Good luck with rambo and your pond :)

PallasAthena

05-20-2009, 9:35 PM

I am pretty sure there's a leak somewhere. I measured the water level yesterday evening and then this evening. It had dropped by an inch. That's a little extreme for evap, right? I diverted the water from the waterfall to the fountain, so that should tell me if the leak is in the waterfall or if it's in the pond liner. *sigh*

Hebily

05-21-2009, 1:11 AM

Was the fountain on? If the weather is dry and hot, that is an expected amount of loss... If the fountain was on, then that adds to evap/splashing losses. If the liner is leaking, you can get this super cool pond liner repair tape... if it's in the waterfall, it is probably in a pipe joint. If you can find an access point, a plumber should be able to fix it for under a hundred bucks, or you can try yourself with things like JD weld Putty. If you attempt to do it yourself, and fail, your efforts will likely make a professional repair cost more. You can leave the pump off for a while to find out for sure if the basin is leaking, but you will still have some evaporation. Also, is it possible that something furry is drinking from the pond? Stray cat? Raccoons? Maybe birds? That's something I'd like to see... a furry bird playing in a pond.

Jennie Beth

05-21-2009, 10:53 AM

Remember though, your pond isn't huge, so it doesn't take a whole lot of water loss to drop the level. The pond at my old house used to routinely drop almost an inch on a hot day with the falls going, and it wasn't much bigger than yours. My big tub pond here dropped a little this last weekend, and the water in it has nowhere to go but evap... Might look around the edges and behind the falls for wet or muddy patches though, they are a sure sign of leakage. Welcome to the life of a pond keeper!! Gotta say, though, the good soooo outweighs the bad when you go out in the morning to say hello to your fishy and see if any of your lilies are blooming yet...I have a teeny lily that is only supposed to have a 1' spread...It is still a baby, but something like that might fit in your pond and give Rambo more hiding places, too. Does the pond get any sunshine?

I think you said something about your filter floating around a bit? I just bought one for my pond, haven't installed it yet, but it looks like a similar thing. Black box with mesh inside and a top with holes in it? The instructions with mine say you can either remove some of the lower foam and put in lava rock, which makes good places for bacteria to live, and will help weigh it down, or put a rock or two on top. I am going to try the lava rock.

Good luck!!
Jen

PallasAthena

05-21-2009, 11:57 AM

Ah, okay, so it may be evap. Although the weather hasn't been too hot. Also, we do have a furry menace running around the yard. :) A big, brown boxer. I caught her this morning kneeling and craning her neck to drink from the pond.

I measured the water level last night before bed: 5" at the shallows (should be 10"). I'll measure tonight. There's boggy ground around the sides of the pond by the falls, but it's hard to tell what of that is splash and what is leakage. I'm afraid if the leak is in the falls, we'll just have to not use it. I don't think the plumbing is accessible in any way. It's bricked into the rocks and the vertical bit is attached to the fence. I don't think I can get to the plumbing without some major demolition. Then, no more waterfall anyway.

If the leak turns out to be the waterfall, I may turn that into a glorified planter with some maidenhair ferns or something. There are misters built in to water a giant hanging plant that we threw away (it had fallen into the pond and drowned), so that would keep the ferns happy.

I'm not sure if the moss on the fence is from these misters or from a leak. I've had the misters turned off for a while, but we've been getting the marine layer coming in off the water, so things have been cool and misty anyway.

Ah, the joys of pond ownership. :)

Wycco

05-21-2009, 11:59 AM

One thing to note with some of the fancies is that they may not do so well in the winter when the pond freezes over unless they are brought in.

I can't remember which- but some fancies are susceptable to colder temps.

PallasAthena

05-21-2009, 12:05 PM

Hebily

05-21-2009, 12:14 PM

You could still get snow... You're new to the house, but are you new to the area you're in?

PallasAthena

05-21-2009, 12:17 PM

I don't think LA gets snow. ;) Unless it's a really freak occurence. Plus, we're just a couple of miles from the beach, so the water will keep us pretty temperate. We're not tucked in a valley or anything. We get all the sea air.

That said, before getting any fish, I'm planning on doing plenty or research!

Hebily

05-21-2009, 12:24 PM

cool... yeah, we only get snow at the higher altitudes. I saw it once at sea level in 20 years living in ca, and that was a really light dusting, not enough to freeze a pond... I would have a backup plan, for short term in house fish keeping, in case we have another super cold (36F for a couple days) winter.

Wycco

05-21-2009, 12:33 PM

Why did I think you were in Wisconsin? Bit of a difference there! ;) Yeah, I imagine you might be OK if it doesn't stay below freezing during the day ever.

Here in SC we get some days below freezing but not very often it stays below freezing long into the daylight hours... although sometimes it will.

I know back when I lived in England the rule was the pond should be 1 metre deep if you want fish to survive the winter... I imagine in either of our locations you might be able to get away with significantly less- although in both our cases summer highs would be more of a concern anyway... thus the need for deep water.

PallasAthena

05-21-2009, 3:02 PM

Gotta say, though, the good soooo outweighs the bad when you go out in the morning to say hello to your fishy and see if any of your lilies are blooming yet...I have a teeny lily that is only supposed to have a 1' spread...It is still a baby, but something like that might fit in your pond and give Rambo more hiding places, too. Does the pond get any sunshine?

It gets a little. What kind of lillies do you have? Something like that might be really good for Rambo to hid in and help with the water quality.

dixienut

05-21-2009, 3:18 PM

Also, we do have a furry menace running around the yard. :) A big, brown boxer. I caught her this morning kneeling and craning her neck to drink from the pond.

be very careful most water contditioners are toxic to animals, unless stated non toxic,.. i use:

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=14232&ref=4178&subref=AA&s_kwcid=TC-2758-123750700521-S-11774969521
http://a1272.g.akamai.net/7/1272/1121/20060105010812/www.drsfostersmith.com/images/Categoryimages/normal/p_24883_32179P_1.jpg (javascript:popupWin1('/product/detailed_image.cfm?pCatId=14232&large=/images/Categoryimages/larger/lg_24883_32179P_1.jpg', 50, 50, 324, 616))
states non toxic to humans and livestock,.. i used to put in my horses water trough for my goldies in there,..

PallasAthena

05-21-2009, 3:21 PM

Oh, wow. So non-toxic to fish doesn't mean non-toxic to other animals?

I'm considering getting a piece of wooden trellis anyway to lay over the top of the pond. Not super attractive, but it would keep the dog, and more importantly the toddler out of the water.

dixienut

05-21-2009, 3:39 PM

just when your runs out or sell it,. and use this,.. it easier to feel safe,.

Hebily

05-21-2009, 3:52 PM

Prime for ponds comes with great praise from many pond keepers.

Jennie Beth

05-21-2009, 11:26 PM

PallasAthena,
Regarding lilies, I bought four lilies for the pond...haven't seen any of them bloom yet as they have been in the water only a week :) but the dwarf one is called Tetragona and gets tiny little flowers just an inch or two across. There is also a red called James Brydon that tolerates more shade and stays pretty small. I had a cutie called Perry's Baby Red with screaming pink flowers at the old place, and it did fine with just a few hours of sunlight, only got a foot across in the three or four years I had it.

Regarding water conditioner, I posted a question about prime and pond prime, and got replies that it is easy to overdose on the pond prime, but that it is good stuff, just to be careful with dosage.

Regarding the evap/leak question, if you have alot of splash from your falls, that can drop your waterlevel quickly, too. Sometimes you can redirect the water by rearranging things a bit, but yours looked pretty mortared in place?

Eyes bleeding from reading all this yet? I suck at short answers :eek:

Jen

PallasAthena

05-22-2009, 10:48 AM

Ha ha, no my eyes aren't bleeding! I'm just so grateful that you guys are being so patient with me with all of this! What an awesome forum!

Thanks for the tips on the lillies. I'll have to watch this weekend to see how much light (and when) hits the pond.

You know, the water dropped another 1/2" yesterday and it was a warm, sunny day. The fog burned off pretty quickly. I am thinking you may be right on the splashing/evap. It is a really splashy little waterfall. It's mortared into place though. I may be able to creatively place some loose rocks to help with that. I might see a little later on about getting some ferns to plant around the base and maybe some maidenhair (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/f3/Adiantumraddianum1web.jpg)'s into the rocks. Those are so pretty and would probably love the splashy environment!

This weekend simply will not come fast enough! :)

ETA: I checked the bottle of my bacteria starter, too. It's this one: Microbe-Lift/PL Gel (http://www.underwaterwarehouse.com/Bacterial/Microbe-Lift-Gel-Bacteria-p-276.html). I figured if it's good enough for a $10k Koi, it'd be okay for my little guy. Anyone used this before?

PallasAthena

05-26-2009, 12:02 PM

Well, I did it! I got the pond all cleaned out! It was pretty horrible on the bottom. There was a ton of black sand and blue rocks that just looked very unnatural. There was all kinds of rotten leaves and bits of mulch that had blown in. Dead snails clogging up the plumbing, lots of really foul smelling sludge, and filthy, filthy water. Poor Rambo. The muck was so thick on the bottom that he was burrowing down in there to hide.

So anyway, I cleaned it out, didn't scrub the algae too much, since the koi guy said to leave it. Basically I hosed it out, diluted the muck, and just kept scooping. I tried to use the pump to do it, but it was just too awkward, and I ended up spraying the electrical outlet and blowing the fuse! Oops! It was a hair-raising experience! Literally! :eek3: Moral of the story: Don't stand in a puddle barefoot and spray water into a socket!

I hosed out the water fall. There was a dead snail in the pipe, which explains why it wasn't working properly. I dug the sand out of the bowl part, and replaced that with larger pond stones that won't fall down into the pipes and clog it up. I also stuck the hose in there and blew out the junk that was in there clogging it up. It works so much better now!

So I cleaned the pond up, added in the (washed!) river rock to hide the bottom and weigh down the filter box. The pond was deeper than I thought when I got the muck out. 1 ft in the shallows and 2 ft in the well, which is good. I got my plants put it: 1 pot of black rushes, and a floating water hyacinth that Rambo seems to particularly enjoy. He really seems to like nosing around the roots.

I also did some cleaning and planting around the edges of the pond. I put in a maidenhair fern on each side where the falls get really splashy, and a wood fern a bit farther off to give some height. I have to say, I am really happy with how it is turning out. There are still a couple more things I want to do. I want to clean some overgrown baby tears (grown cover) off the flagstones and scrub off some if the algea. And I want to put a few more river rocks at the edges (kind of like mulch) to make it more grotto-y looking.

I haven't taken pictures yet, but I plan to this evening. I am so excited, and so far, Rambo is living up to his name. I'll be watching really closely. Hopefully he won't go belly up from all of these changes. He seems curious, though, and once we got him reintroduced, he was very busy swimming around and exploring the cleaned up diggs. I want to let it cycle and the add in some more fish so he can have a little school to hang around with.

clb2196

05-26-2009, 4:02 PM

What a happy story. :) Can't wait to see the pics, Rambo is a pretty lucky little fish!

Jennie Beth

05-26-2009, 6:15 PM

Uh oh...it's too late for you now...you're hooked!!!! I am sorry to have to tell you this, but there is no known cure, it's chronic. Next, you'll be plotting to drive the neighbors out, buy their lot, bulldoze their house, and build a BIG pond...oh, wait, that'd be me:)

Ain't it great?
Jen

Wycco

05-27-2009, 7:46 AM

As a kid - started with one fish pond... then added a tadpole pond... ended up putting fish in there too of course.

Then we had a couple of big plastic barrells with golden minnows in them...

Oh and then there was the fish tank...

- then we moved and that stopped all that! After that I had a fishtank - but never swelled beyond that- stopped during my college years. Now I'm back into fishkeeping- and already planning my new fish empire.

I NEED a pond... a mudskipper, and invert tank, a crayfish paludarium, my community tank, a cichlid tank, a... etc ;)

Hebily

05-27-2009, 10:47 AM

Yes, you NEED them. :evil_lol:

I bet your wife sees it that way.

Desertponder

05-27-2009, 3:24 PM

There was a ton of black sand and blue rocks that just looked very unnatural. There was all kinds of rotten leaves and bits of mulch that had blown in. Dead snails clogging up the plumbing, lots of really foul smelling sludge, and filthy, filthy water. Poor Rambo. The muck was so thick on the bottom that he was burrowing down in there to hide.

That's pretty much why I advised against putting rock in the bottom. It just collects that mess and makes for a more difficult job to maintain.:)

PallasAthena

05-27-2009, 4:08 PM

That's pretty much why I advised against putting rock in the bottom. It just collects that mess and makes for a more difficult job to maintain.:)

I know I know. :) You can say "I told you so," when I post on here to complain about it later. I did go ahead and add some rocks. They aren't tiny aquarium gravel (like what was originally in there), though. They're about thumb sized. Pond rocks is what the bag was labeled. The bottom of the pond was just awful looking and this makes it look much more naturalistic. Any finger wagging from you when I complain about cleaning it will be accepted with grace. LOL!

Rambo is STILL ALIVE! And the black patches I noticed on his side have disappeared. Clean water? Yeah, it can be a good thing I guess.

Today in the car, I mentioned needing to pick up a test kit to DH. He asked about it, and I explained mechanical vs biological filtration (thank you 4H and AC!) and cycling and why it's important to know when the pond has cycled. I talked about fish cycling and why I don't like it, but that we don't have a choice as Rambo was already there. Then I mentioned that once it's cycled we can get a couple of more fish. You know what he said? "Cool. I didn't know that's how it worked!" I totally expected him to say, "NO MORE FISH!" But he's seeing how nice the pond is I guess, so... :dance::dance:

PallasAthena

05-29-2009, 4:16 PM

Sorry to dredge this up again. I'm not trying to be LAM in my posting. :)

Once this pond cycles, I'd like to add more fish. For a 75 gal pond, how many can I safely add? The guy in petsmart said I could put 10 in there, but that seems like way too many. I was thinking of adding 3-5 pretty little comets and helping them grow into 3-5 pretty big comets. Is that reasonable? Am I being overly cautious? Is there anything wrong with getting the comet feeder fish that are $0.24 as opposed to shelling out $6 for a little bit bigger comets?

The guy said that because of the evap factor (I'm having to add 15 gal every 3 days or so) that this is effectively like changing out the water, so it means the pond can support a few more fish. Is this true or is it so much BS?

Also, I really don't have a way to quarantine the new guys. I'm feeling a little guilt over that. Is this really such a big deal in a pond setting?

Thanks y'all!

clb2196

05-29-2009, 4:21 PM

I think 3-5 sounds good. When the water evaporates you don't get the benefits of a water change since it's only removing water, not fish poop whatever else. Plus yeah, frequent water changes mean you can have a heavier bio load, but with goldfish you're dealing with a space issue, not just a bio load one. So yeah I'd say 3-5.

AFA feeder goldfish- how big is Rambo. Make sure they're not small enough to be eaten!

With only 1 current fish QT isn't such a big deal, really. And I'm sure you'll keep an eye on them. :)

PallasAthena

05-29-2009, 4:32 PM

clb2196

05-29-2009, 7:51 PM

How small is small enough to be eaten? Rambo's about 4" but I doubt he could fit one of these little guys in his mouth. He did get the name Rambo for a reason, though, and at this point, nothing would surprise me!

The goldfish people will have to answer that. Generally anything they can fit in their mouth is fair game, so if they're bigger than that you may be ok. If you don't get an answer here eventually, ask in the chat room, someone will know. :)

PallasAthena

06-01-2009, 11:14 AM

I've added fish! 5 little comets! (An extra made it's way into the bag) Right now I can only find 4 though. I REALLY need to post pics.

We have a big problem though.

Is it unreasonable to lose 15 gal in 1 day? That's how fast the water level dropped! How do you go about finding leaks in the pond liner. I've looked, but I couldn't see anything. It doesn't help that the thing is sprayed with gunnite.

Jennie Beth

06-01-2009, 9:14 PM

Will you have enough water for the fish if you don't top it off when you loose water for a few days? If you do, don't top it off, wait a day or two and see where the water level ends up. If you have a hole, the water level will quit falling when it reaches the hole. Then you search the water line for the hole and patch it. Might be better to house the fish somewhere else, in case the hole is way down at the bottom.

Another thing to try is turning off the waterfall and watching the level for a few days. If the level stays where it should be with the falls off, the leak is in the falls. If it continues to drop, it is most likely in the basin.

Been there, done that, hate that...good luck. If you do find a hole, patching is pretty easy, but the spot has to be clean and dry, so the water will have to be dropped a little below the hole to get it patched.

Jen

PallasAthena

06-02-2009, 11:02 AM

Thanks Jen. I turned off the falls last night and I'm moving the water through the little fountain instead. I very strongly suspect that the leak is in the falls. This is a big problem. The rocks are mortared in place and the only way to access the plumbing is with a sledgehammer.

I really want to run into one of those guys from the DIY network show Yard Crashers and have him crash my yard and do all this stuff for us. Why can't I be that lucky? :confused:

I had visions last night of transferring my guys to a tub, pulling out the whole waterfall, pond liner and everything, digging a much bigger and deeper hole, and really just doing things properly. Trouble is, I don't have the skills or the time to DIY that, and I definitely don't have the money to pay for it! *sniffle* Like I said, I want yard crashers to crash my yard.

PallasAthena

06-03-2009, 12:33 AM

Unlike all last week, today was warm and sunny. I expected the water level to drop. It didn't. At all. The leak is definitely in the waterfall. Greaaaat. I'm not sure that's fixable.

ETA: I had to remove the vid. I'll post it to youtube and try reposting it here tomorrow.

Here are some more pictures:

a view that shows the plants
http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r233/Pallas_Athena2003/IMG_0624.jpg

one of the little orange and white guys - check out the clear water!
http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r233/Pallas_Athena2003/IMG_0621.jpg

A view of the whole thing now that it's been cleaned up
http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r233/Pallas_Athena2003/IMG_0625.jpg

ETA2:

Rambo and his little buddies:
http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r233/Pallas_Athena2003/IMG_0623.jpg

Jennie Beth

06-03-2009, 12:52 AM

I know the leak thing is a pain in the butt, but your pond is looking very cute anyway, and now at least you know where it is. Since you have an alternate fountain, you have aeration, too, until you come up with plan B. What if you left the existing waterfall just as a stone wall? It looks like there is a basin at the top, is that right? Maybe make it a planter for something nice and trailing, and put in a different, lower waterfall to one side, with all new, accessible, hardware?
I am envying your clear water, mine is going thru the green phase at the moment. But I'll take green water over no water any day!

(off topic, but how do you write between your pics when you post? I seem to end up with all my pics together and I can't figure out how to write between them...)

Jen

PallasAthena

06-03-2009, 10:52 AM

I actually thought about getting some hose and bypassing the existing waterfall plumbing and just bringing water to the top of the falls that way. I thought I could tuck it out of sight, but it would still run water over the falls. Otherwise, I did consider just making the bowl at the top of the falls into a planter and just running water through the fountain. I'm just concerned that while the fountain provides water movement, it doesn't really provide enough aeration.

Here's a video showing what I mean. (http://s145.photobucket.com/albums/r233/Pallas_Athena2003/?action=view&current=MVI_0627.flv)

You can see the little fishies zooming around! Yesterday they even came up to feed from the surface. Rambo, too! Everyone seems to be feeling braver now that they can school.

Also, do you hear that grinding/rattling noise in there? It doesn't do this when the water goes through the falls (or maybe the falls masks the noise), but I'm worried that my pump is on its last legs. This is NOT what I need right now since we've just dropped $1100 in vet bills for our dog with more to come. :(

Jennie Beth

06-03-2009, 11:09 AM

I was thinking that, too, after I went to bed last night, bypassing the old plumbing and hiding a new hose behind the edge of the wall. Do you have the same pump for the falls and the fountain? If you do, that horrible noise might not be the pump itself, 'cause you'd hear it when the falls are running, right? (Edit: If I actually READ the whole post, I would have seen your answer.:) My bubbler growls a little, too, especially when the flow is turned down, but it is disguised by the splash, so I don't hear it unless I am listening for it. If it isn't your pump, you can get a different head for your fountain that provides more aeration, for less than $30. It threads onto the same upright your current one is on, and they come in several different patterns.

I am not an aquarium keeper, but couldn't you run an airstone in there for aeration, too? I see you have power there on the right side (?)

Sorry to hear about your doggy. Mine is a pain in the rear, but I'd be doing the same thing.
Jen

Hebily

06-03-2009, 2:59 PM

Are you sure there is no access? I am having trouble imagining the piping leaking if it is encased in mortar/cement. With absolutely no room to move, how could it crack? Even then, while the cement would absorb a little water, it would become saturated, and no more water would leak. This makes me think there has to be open space, which means there is access. Is it possible that the whole waterfall structure can lift up? If not, could digging under it grant you access? Could moving the preformed liner open up an access point? Is the ground UNDER the falls wet?

squabeggs

06-03-2009, 6:21 PM

That is definately NOT what your fountain/pump should sound like. I have that same/similar one. Mine is quiet and puts out a steady flow of water. Unplug it, take the box out of the water and open it up to get at the pump. You should be able to twist off or unscrew one end of the pump to access the impeller. It sounds like there might be some old gravel or sand in it causing it to not spin freely. Clean it off and the well it fits into. Re-assemble, put back into water and test it out. Hopefully that is all it is. Was the pump ever running when it was not completely submerged? If so, that is bad.

If the pump is bad, Ace Hardware (I'm in Montana..I would guess you have Ace or similar in LA) has fountain/pond pumps you can put in the box for a lot less than buying a new fountain/pump/box combo. Here they range from $40-$60...(I swear I've seen them for less somwhere....maybe Wal-e-world). They are rated at 250-300 GPH which would be plenty to make your fountain do its thing and provide enough aeration. I have my waterfall off too and my fountain definately aerates enough.

We have very similar set ups. I have determined that my waterfall developed a leak due to ice build-up during winter that cause the flagstone to shift. Luckily mine is just piled, so I can re-stack it...still a pain though.

I'll try and post pics soon. Pump tear down and all.

BTW, Nice fish. Mine are still inside....due to my technical problems.

PallasAthena

06-03-2009, 6:37 PM

Oh, yeah. The pump ran dry for a while. When we closed on the house and went over there on the 1st day, the pond was pretty much dried up with the pump running. :irked: Of course we unplugged in immediately and didn't think anything more about it. We didn't know there was a fish in there. When we refilled it to turn on the waterfall, we saw the fish. And that's what sparked this whole thing.

Now we're looking at another $550 for the dog, so the pump is just going to have to keep grinding away as best as it can. :(

squabeggs

06-03-2009, 6:57 PM

They are pretty durable, so I would at least tear it apart and clean it....nothing to loose.
It's funny how similar our situations are. I bought my house..it came with the pond. I came over one day before we closed, and the fish were huddled in about 2 inches of water (pump grinding away)...A hose had popped loose. Anyway, I am still using the same pump.

Jennie Beth

06-04-2009, 10:47 AM

It might not be the actual waterfall PLUMBING that is leaking, like Hebily mentions...it could well be cracks in the wall face or loose rocks that are allowing water to go down behind the falls rather than into the pond.
Jen

PallasAthena

06-05-2009, 11:40 AM

Oh, boy. It was an eventful night in the pond. The pump has quit, so today we'll be swinging by HD to pick up a new one with our lovely 10% off coupon.

Also, I think I'm down to 4 of the little baby comets thanks to a marauding feline. This is sad, but ultimately, I had accidentally overstocked, so it's probably for the best. :( I just hope it doesn't make a habit of stealing my fish. Little Ponyo could be hiding out somewhere, but I sure couldn't see him anywhere. *sniffle* Let's hope Haku, Hamachi, The Stig, and Jackie Chan Fish are smart enough to hide. I think Saturday AM, I'll pick up another plant to both oxygenate and give them more places to hide.

On the plumbing issues, I don't think that the plumbing is completely encased in rock and mortar. I think on one side it's the rocks, but on the other it's the fence. I believe it may be attached to the fence, but Hebily had a great idea to see if it will lift up or move out or something like that. We'll definitely fiddle around with it this weekend. I'm just relieved now that I know where the leak is. And relieved that we'll be getting a new pump. I think that will really help with things. I'll also take the opportunity to get some tubing. My theory is, that if I can run water AROUND the old plumbing and there's no leaking that will further tell me that the leak is in the plumbing itself as opposed to a crack in the falls like Jennie Beth mentions.

Squabegg, I have cleaned that pump out. It's just toast. Once they run dry for a while, their days are pretty numbered from what I hear. Well, a new pump will mean better water flow, so that's a good thing!

squabeggs

06-05-2009, 6:02 PM

You can also get some black netting to put over the surface...it is for keeping birds and beasts out. Fish can still get to the surface, and it is actually hard to see if done right.

PallasAthena

06-06-2009, 9:04 PM

Good News: All goldies are present and accounted for. Apparently Ponyo was just hiding.

Bad News: I can't find a stupid pump that works! I bought a pump for a medium sized pond initially and got a little fountain attachment to go with it. Same brand and everything. Well, the parts didn't fit together. So I took it back. The only one that would fit any of the fountain parts was sized for a large pond. Okay. So I get that. Now the darn thing doesn't work! I put it in the box and it runs for about 5 minutes (or less!) and then it shuts down! I've got it out of the box and running now just to move the water and aerate my pond, and so far it's still running.

I think what's going on is that it's moving water faster than the filter box can refill with water. What do I do here? I need that filterbox to filter my pond! I am so frustrated about having to go back to Home Depot YET AGAIN!

Any advice?

ETA: So much for my "Too Powerful of a Pump" Theory. I had it running just on its own outside of the box, and guess what! It quit! :mad2::swear:

Jennie Beth

06-06-2009, 10:35 PM

Do you have a McLendons in your area? That's where I get most of my pond fittings--pump, filter, hose, etc. If you have different sized hoses and connections, you might try the plumbing or in-ground sprinkler section at the Home Depot. You can often find fittings that will adapt one size to another and use them to connect your not-fitting pieces. Might have to drag them all in to the HD with you to find the pieces, but it is worth a try. Can't think why your pump should be shutting down. It shouldn't be lack of water, because, as you found with your last one, it will run with no water, at least for awhile til it nukes itself. What do you have to do to get it running again? Could it be tripping a breaker somewhere? Or tripping the GFI on your pond power outlet? But then you'd have to be resetting it to get it to run again...

Did you maybe just get a bum pump? What brand is it?
Edit: Is it a Beckett? I was snooping on the HD website and saw they carry that brand. Googled it, but couldn't find a troubleshooting section on the Beckett site
Jen