I only *thought* I wasn't a newbie...

[DEmigh]

I thought that with 4+ years in the hobby, a 125gal tank, and minimal fish mortality I was way too cool for the newbie board :emb:

Wrong again, presumptuous breath!

After surfing the posts in other sub-topics, and following some of the threads, I conclude that I may be a hardware geek who owns a glass box full of salt-water.

A list of my sins follows :sad

I use a UG filter. This sin may be mitigated by the fact that it is set up in reverse flow, driven by four powerheads with a combined nominal flow rate of 4-500 gph (don't remember exactly).

That UG filter is covered with crushed coral.

In addition to the UG, I have two Emperors hanging on the back of the tank, their biowheels churning away.

My lighting is :sick: 90 watts of conventional flourescent, two "actinic" and one "ultralume." I don't even know what the spectrum temperature is on these lights.

I have never owned a skimmer.

A list of possible sins follows :(

I have created an artificial reef base using strawberry jars (those flower pots with holes in the sides) turned upside down so that they create caves.

I have cultured my own live rock by purchasing coral skeletons and attaching sponges etc. to them.

One thing I may be doing right :)

I have three different circulation pumps, all pointed in different directions, connected to a cycle timer, to simulate wave motion.

======================

I call this a reef tank, but I have only about twenty pounds of genuine live rock, along with another ten pounds or so that I've cultured myself.

The fish that live in this are:

two percula clowns
a yellow tang
a royal tang
a striped dottyback
a blue damsel
a picaso trigger

There is one, huge happy colony of sponge growing on one of my "homeade" liverocks, but other than this, I haven't had much luck with invertebrates (someone is saying "Well duh!" right about now).

======================

My goals for this tank include:

Getting (and keeping alive) an anemone for the clownfish.
Getting some cool-looking corals (soft or hard)
Becoming a "grandparent" (the clowns have already tried to spawn twice, I think)

======================

I am open to advice/admonishments from any source :confused:

David Emigh

[g. mcclean]

I think I might start by getting rid of the UGF. Next I would purchase some "cured" live rock and get rid of the flower pots. The rock can be arranged to make some great natural looking caves. Next, if you want an anemone you will need to upgrade your lighting. It would also be helpful to read some good books, such as Natural Reef Aquariums by Tullock and Corals by Eric Borneman.
I personally use a filter (a Fluval) on each of my saltwater aquariums, but do biweekly maintenance on them. I also use a skimmer on each of the salt tanks. In order to have the water quality necessary for corals I would say a skimmer is a must.
My final thought is that clowns don't need an anemone to spawn. There are several easier corals that they may bond with, such as some of the leathers. You would not be able to raise the fry in a community tank such as yours either.

Hope this helps, and good luck.

[DEmigh]

Thanks for the advice.

Would you suggest a bare bottom :D , leave the crushed coral, or some other option?

I am pricing new/ more lights :eek:

It looks as if the skimmer will be the easiest thing to add.

[OrionGirl]

A deep sand bed will help, or you could go with just a thin layer of sand. I'm not a fan of bare bottoms, because they can cause problems--the fish see reflections and attack, or they never feel safe.

Agree on the above--this setup will never allow you to raise the clowns. Most marine fish go through a pelagic larval stage--meaning, the eggs hatch into a little blob that looks nothing like a real fish. The blobs float around, feeding from the water column on plankton, sometimes for months, before morphing into a tiny fish. A special setup, exclusively for the larvae, is required to raise the babies. However, if the clowns have spawned, they are healthy and happy, and have no need for change.

Another great book that I just bought is A Simple Guide to Keeping a Saltwater Tank. It has tons of great information, and will explain why the pottery doesn't really function as live rock.


You'll want to do some research on corals and anenome before purchasing any--or the lights. With the trigger in there, corals may be made into a pricy buffet. Corals are the natural food source for many triggers, and I don't trust them in reef systems, especially in the long run.


Otherwise--keep in mind that there are many definitions of success. For some people, success is found only in breeding--for others, it's just keeping the fish healthy and growing. Even though your setup is not the same as mine, does not make yours a failure.

[DEmigh]

Let's see if I have this right:

Pottery's similarity to liverock ends at providing hiding places.
Corals + Triggers = Lunch
bare bottoms mean spooked fish :(

--------------------------

Deep sand vs. shallow sand

Shallow is cheap.
Deep is expensive, but (presumably) would provide the biological activity that I will lose along with the UG.

Input?

[Sregnar35]

Deep sand beds are cheap, you just can't buy sand cheap at your LFS, go to Home Depot. Buy southdown or Oldcastle playsand, $5.99 for 50# bags!!

[OrionGirl]

Correct on your first three points!

Deep sand beds are not costly when setup using play sand and activator kits (or quality live sand--much of what I've seen in stores was bunk). You don't have to have a full 6 inches--2-3 will work as well. And, the DSB does more than the crushed coral you're currently using. Right now, the CC is biologically active with bacteria that consume ammonia and nitrites. Both of these bacteria are easy to host in an aquarium--pretty well every surface in the tank is coated with them, as long as there is plentiful water movement. What a DSB will also provide are the low flow anaerobic areas. In these pockets, nitrates are processed. So, critters (worms, snails, stars, fish) slowly move the sand around (think slow for the whole bed--localized it may be fast) and this keeps the pockets from going anoxic, and keeps the nitrates low naturally. The upper levels of the sand are colonized by the first 2 sets of bacteria.

[DEmigh]

Home Depot, here I come :)

I have never seen an Activator Kit. This is not to say that my LFS doesn't carry such a thing, only that I've never seen one. If I can't find one, could I "seed" my sand bed with some of my crushed coral?

I have a 50gal just laying around gathering dust right now. If I filled it with sand and crushed coral and topped it off with aquarium water would that amount to a bacteria culture or a disaster waiting to happen?

[OrionGirl]

Activator kits are sold online--there are several sources. They include biological active sand, and some 'critter's like worms and stars and such. You can seed the play sand with your crushed coral--I would defintely do so. Most of your biological filter is in the CC, and a complete removal would be traumatizing. I would scoop all the CC into nylon bags, and leave them in the tank on top of the sand for 2-3 weeks. This will help introduce the bacteria, and some of the other microfauna.

Guess I'm not sure what you are suggesting with the 50. Just moving the CC and adding sand won't work--the mixed grain size will not permit the anaerobic areas from developing, and burying the aerobic bacteria this way will kill them. If you move the CC and the UGF into the 50, and then plumb it into your main system like a sump, but with a prefilter to prevent solid wastes from entering in, it will retain the biological filtration...But it will be a bit bulky!

[DEmigh]

This is an amazing forum. :)

Your guess was pretty good, OrionGirl. I have been mulling the logistics of plumbing in a tank full of CC/sand as a sump. I particularly appreciate your warning about mixing grain sizes. That was what I meant by a "disaster waiting to happen." I infer that intimate contact between the sand and the CC isn't necessary for the aerobic bacteria to colonize the sand, only decent water circulation.

Now about those anaerobes... I guess they're on their own.(?) I imagine that my tank presently offers precious few havens for their development, but then, that's the whole point of converting to a deep sand bed.

When my subconcious yields up a plan for plumbing, I'll run it out for comment before I implement it.

Tanks alot! (probably a rather tired cliche in this venue...)

P.S.

Sregnar35: Thanks again for the tip on Home Depot play sand. You probably saved me a bunch of money :D

[OrionGirl]

You are correct--the bacteria will colonize any area they can, and the tranfer from one media to another does not require contact, just proximity. If you make the transfer fairly quickly (ie, remove the CC and get it into this new sump within 1-2 days) you should retain the vast majority of the bacteria colonies.

[DEmigh]

My sub-concious has been at work:

Since I want to have my new sand bed nicely cultured with the bacteria that are presently populating the crushed coral on the (soon to be removed) UG filter, they have to be plumbed together for a while.

Since my fish have to have some place to live while I am pulling the UG plates, my (presently dry) 50 gal. is spoken for.

My 125 gal. is not drilled, so the easiest way to plumb it would have to include a siphon. I have been contemplating the consequences of a power outage (overflows, pumps running dry) and have just about concluded that a there is no way to avoid these dangers with a siphon. Hence, a gravity powered overflow has to be included in the plumbing circuit.

I'm envisioning a plastic tub, of suitable size to contain 100 lbs or so of sand, positioned *above* the aquarium on a suitable support. I can fairly easily make an overflow tube with rigid PVC plumbing parts, and I have all sorts of spare pumps laying around to move the water from the main aquarium up into the sand culture tub.

I suppose this amounts to an upside down sump system.

Does anyone who is following this thread forsee any difficulties with this plan?

Thanks for your help :)

[TKOS]

One of those large rubbermaid containers will probably do the trick and is quite inexpensive.

[OrionGirl]

The tub with sand does not have to be above the tank--you can hide it below, and have the water siphon from your tank into this tub, then return with the pump. Floods are a risk, but not inevitable, with overflow boxes. First, there should be 2 boxes, one inside the tank, one outside. The one inside has a variable top so the water pours over even if there's a bit of evaporation, but not so it will remove more than about one inch of water. The outside box has a pipe that limits how much water flows out, so it will always remain above the siphon tubes. So, you should never lose the siphon on this part. On the return tube, you drill a hole just above the water line. If the power goes out, air gets sucked into the tube, preventing the return line from siphoning all the water out of your tank.

Always have flow lines as straight a shot as you can. I ended up needing to replace all the lines, because the lines were angled and air bubbles would get trapped, slowing water flow. It did result in some floods--but not because of the overflow.

Of course, upon re-reading, I'm think that you're just wanting a temporary setup to get the sand cultured? If this is the case, don't worry about plumbing it into the tank at all. Just setup a tub with some water movement and surface agititation, and cycle it with a chunk of cocktail shrimp, or pure ammonia. Seed it with a handfull of CC from your tank, and the bacteria colonies will become established. You'll really only want to have about 1-2 inches in there, since it will be disturbed when you add it to the main tank. The upper levels will have the bacteria you want, so put down the 1-3 inches on the bottom, then top it off with this cultured sand.

[DEmigh]

Thank you TKOS and OrionGirl!

All y'all (that's the 2nd person plural pronoun here in Oklahoma) have saved me both money and time :)

The fish thank you too :D

I'll continue to post progress reports.

[DEmigh]

Originally posted by OrionGirl
[...] there should be 2 boxes, one inside the tank, one outside. The one inside has a variable top so the water pours over even if there's a bit of evaporation, but not so it will remove more than about one inch of water. The outside box has a pipe that limits how much water flows out, so it will always remain above the siphon tubes. So, you should never lose the siphon on this part. [...]

I understand now :)

It took a while to get my head around the fluid mechanics (water on the brain? ;) ) but this is the solution I was looking for: a siphon to get the water over the edge of the aquarium without drilling, and two overflow boxes to prevent the siphon from either breaking or running wild. Very clever. Thank you.

I'm still going to culture my DSB in a tub, completely separate from the main tank, but now I have the option to go to a sump or refugium (I think I'm using this term correctly...) if that becomes important.

Many thanks again!

[DEmigh]

I bought a 45 gallon storage tub and 250 lbs. of playsand at home depot. I vaccumned the gravel from the main tank and let the waste and water flow into the tub with the sand. Topped off the aquarium with 25 gallons of new saltwater (matched to pH and temperature) amounting to a 20% water change.

In the tub I have a power head stirring the water through a couple handsfull of CC substrate from the aquarium. I added a spare heater to keep things bubbling along near 80 degrees. I couldn't find ammonia without soap, so I tossed in a handfull of fishfood.

After a week the readings are:

salinity: 1.024
pH: 7.7
ammonia: .1 - .2 ppm
nitrite: very high, off the scale
nitrate: 10 - 20 ppm

I would regard a tank as "cycled" when the nitrite readings fall off the low end of the scale. Since I am specifically converting to a DSB for its nitrate processing capability, should I regard the sand as cycled in at zero nitrite, or wait until the nitrates fall off as well?

Thanks for any input on this question.

I hope everyone had a pleasant winter holiday (Merry Christmas, Happy Hannukah, etc.) :)

[OrionGirl]

Since it sounds like you'll be moving the sand, don't worry about it hitting 0 for the nitrates. Those bacteria take a while to develop good colonies, and the transfer process will disturb the layers enough to expose them to lethal oxygen levels. Once the nitrite and ammonia are at 0, those bacteria beds will be stable and you can move them over. There will still be a small spike as they re-establish themselves, but it should be short lived. The nitrate consumers will show up eventually--water changes will keep nitrates from getting out of control until then.

[DEmigh]

Originally posted by OrionGirl
[...] the transfer process will disturb the layers enough to expose them to lethal oxygen levels. [...]

That answers my question very nicely :D

[DEmigh]

I finally found some ammonia without a surfactant. It was at a Westlake Hardware, their house brand. The label describes it as a solution of Ammonium Hydroxide. The concentration isn't given on the label, so I guesstimated 10% (since it's "Janitorial Strength").

My sand tub contains 25 gallons of water, so I have been "feeding" it 2-3 ml of this solution every two days. My last feeding was Thursday night, I'm going to take test readings Saturday afternoon.

[DEmigh]

Ammonia: 0.3 - 0.4
Nitrite: still off the top of the scale
Nitrate: 100ppm
pH: still holding at 7.7, despite dosing with buffer

I got worried about the nitrate poisoning the ammonia/nitrite metabolizers, so I did a 60% water change. (hard to change more water than this because the depth of the sand in the tub limits how far down I can siphon)

Former "feeding" schedule: 1 ml of ammonia solution (believed to be 10% concentration) per 10 gallons of water per 48 hours.

New "feeding" schedule: 1/4 ml of ammonia solution per 10 gallons per 24 hours.

I believe this strategy will keep the ammonia metabolizers on "maintenance" while the nitrite metabolizers catch up.

Comments?

[OrionGirl]

Agreed. The nitrite metabolizers tend to be a bit poky. Expect them to hang around at the same level for a while, then suddenly 'catch-up'. That nitrate are present indicates the bacteria are present, just not in adequate sized colonies. They'll get there!

[DEmigh]

:cool:

Thanks :)

[DEmigh]

Brought the 55 and stand in from the back porch. Cleaned the aquarium (w/ vinegar) and checked all the silicon to see that it was still soft and flexible. Replaced the seal in the corner where the hamsters had chewed it (long story :rolleyes: ) and leveled the stand. 48+ hours cure on the new silicon.

This evening (1/19) will half-fill w/ tap water and do a 24 hour leak check, followed by a full-fill and another 24 hour leak check. This aquarium has been sitting on the porch for over a year, so I'm being extra careful. Edit: leak check ok (1/21)

If all goes well <knocks on wood>, the next steps will be:

1) half-fill 55 w/ new saltwater, tap the rest from the 125. Power-head, heater, match temperature and pH to 125.

2) pull about a fourth of the CC from the 125 as a temporary substrate for the 55 (to prevent bare-bottom stress on fish). Let the dust settle, water test. If all is well...

3) move liverock, sponges, the one pot that the clownfish call home, fish, and any other creatures I can find to the 55. Move HOB filters and the lights.

4) pause to assess progress (and while there's still water in the 125 in case I need a fall-back plan) If all is well...

5) full tear-down on the 125. Crushed Coral to buckets, dead rocks to more buckets (been savin' 'em up). Wipe down with vinegar, then rinse with de-chlorinated tap water.

6) lay down egg-crate on bottom glass of 125, thin layer of cultured sand, foundation rocks for new reef, rest of cultured sand, half-fill with new water. Heater, powerhead, let the dust settle.

7) match pH and temp to the 55, test all parameters. If all is well...

8) move liverock, sponges, fish, and any other moving thing to 125, top off with water from 55.

9) return HOB filters and lights to 125

10) start saving up for a bunch more liverock

---------------------------------

I invite suggestions/comments from any and all :D