I think the heat cooked my blue ram :(

[Zenz]

It's been hotter than usual the past couple of days. It might have been up to about 82 or 83 in the house at various times during the past couple of days. I have a cheap heater in my tank that does not keep a constant heat. You just turn it up or down based on the current temperature. I don't know if it was coming on or not...I would guess no. I have a new heater that keeps a constant heat but I haven't put it in the tank yet because we were supposed to move a month ago and I thought I would just put it in once we set up the tank in the new house. Our closing keeps getting pushed back and now here we are in the summer with an 83 degree house.

To top it off, we have been quite busy the past few days and while I have fed my fish each day and I target feed my frogs every other day, I didn't do my usual head count. My tank has been very stable for months. I have not added any fish since sometime in 2008 and have not lost a fish since before I added the last fish and even then I have not lost many fish at all. Only toward the beginning of the tank setup so this has been a very healthy tank. My water parameters are always good. I do weekly to biweekly water changes depending on our activities.

Today I noticed my gouramis acting kind of squirly and one of the snails laying funny in the tank. I fed the fish and then fed the frogs. When I put my hand in the water, I noticed that it felt warm and when I checked, it was up to 85!!! I guess hot house plus light over top = 85 degrees? I quickly did a head count and realized that I hadn't seen the male blue ram eating sure enough there he was all sad and broken in the corner. :( He is now totally colorless (was VERY vibrant before), both bottom fins are chewed off and much of his back tail is chewed off. When he swims, his back tail is going up a bit in a funny way. So SAD. :( :( His name is Mark. Mark has always been a nice big, bright and healthly guy who basically ruled the tank so this was very sad to see him like this.

I quickly tested the water to make sure all was good and it was. I then did a 40-45% water change to cool down the tank a bit. I brought it down to 80 degrees. I didn't want to drop it too far, obviously. As soon as the water change was completed, Mark came out and I saw him eating. He has been swimming around a bit and is no longer hiding but still is colorless, lifeless eyes and of course chewed up fins.

Other than what I have done already, is there anything else that I can do to help him? Do you think he'll be ok? Will his fins grow back? How do I keep my tank from getting so hot in the summer? Should I keep the light on at night instead of during the day?

Thanks for reading and any advice that you may have!

Info:

29 gallon tank
5 cardinal tetras
2 dwarf gourami
2 blue rams
1 fancy tail guppy
1 bushy nosed pleco
2 dwarf frogs
1 otto
4 dwarf cory cats
3 red arc pencilfish
1 mystery snail
2 zebra nerites

I feed a wide variety of food including shrimp sinking pellets, fish flakes, algae wafers once a week when the lights are out, snail jello, and occasionally cooked broccoli or fresh cucumbers.



Please no over stocked comments. The tank is heavily planted and like I said, it has been very stable and everyone has been quite happy and healthy for many months now. Plus the dwarf catfish are teeny tiny little things.

[7itanium]

if you have a new heater... you should put it in lol

it takes like 7 seconds to plug a heater in and there wont be further issues

if it gets too hot.. you can freeze water bottles and let them float in the tank during the heat of the day

[Zenz]

Yea, the new heater is going in tomorrow. I need husband's help because the strip is back behind the tank where I can't reach it and he's sleeping. However, I really don't think it was turning on at all. I think it was just the heat from the environment. It usually doesn't get this hot this time of year in the PNW.

Floating ice bottles! I like that idea! It won't shock them from being too cold?

[7itanium]

no not at all.. just dont add more than a couple at a time.

this is why I reccomend adding the ice in bottles to avoid shock.. as apposed to just droping ice in the tank.

the cool thing about it is.. they last just about as long as it takes a new one to freeze--- so its pretty easy to float them, and rotate them throughout the day-- while always having a fresh one in the freezer

[june2000]

I think you better test the water parameter again and check your food especially jello / broccoli or cucumber. Healthy ram should be fine at 85. (Usually, healthy ram will be fine even at 90.)

[pinkertd]

I agree that a tank temperature of 85 should not have that kind of effect on your ram. My discus tank is kept warmer than that and I've kept rams in with the discus without issue. Are you using the liquid tests for the water?

[swinneyw]

the frozen water bottles is a good idea i allways unplug my heaters this time of year the temp never gets under 75 degrees here in texas

[Zenz]

Thank you for the idea with the frozen bottle. I will try that.

I am using liquid test kit. My amonia is 0, nitrites 0 and nitrates were between 10 and 20. This has been steady forever. Also, I tested the water before I did the water change to be sure that I would have a reading of "before" in case it was something with the water.

I haven't fed snail jello, broccoli or cucumber since last week and Mark was fine at that time. My bloodworm batch which I forgot to list and do feed every 2 days is the same batch that's been in my freezer for awhile now. I'm getting to the end of the pack, can they go bad after a time?

Today Mark is breathing heavy, no color, fins still look horrible but I see him pooping and it is stringy looking.

I just looked again and he and the female are together (good sign as they were never apart when he was healthy) and his black stripes around his face are returning and I see some red/orange on his head. Body is still colorless. I also noticed gourami poop looks a little stringy just a little and female ram too although Mark is the only one who is looking or acting sick in any way. Female ram does look a little stressed and concerned about Mark as she keeps swimming near him and nosing him ever so gently. Everyone else looks fine and healthy.

I'm not feeding any new foods. Really, nothing has changed. Except 1 week ago my filter stopped working in the middle of the night. I noticed it and woke my husband. I tested water to try to get a sense of how long the filter had been out and it tested fine. We emptied out most of the sludge in the canister, rinsed the filter in tank water, put it all back together and it worked like new again. No tap water touched any of the parts. I tested the water the next day and it was fine (the usual 0 ammonia, 0 nitrites, 10 nitrates), tested water third day and it was fine so I relaxed and was happy that filter cleaning did not disturb the balance. I did not test again until last night when I noticed Mark was sick. At that time as I said everything was fine but nitrates were closer to 20 than usual but it was time for a water change so that was not surprising.

I really hope I can do something to save Mark. Julie (the female ram) seems a little stressed and keeps checking him out to see what's wrong with him. Now that I look at her again, she seems to be breathing a little weird too.

btw, I do use dechlor drops when doing water changes so it's not that either.

[Zenz]

I just tested the water again to be sure and it was ammonia 0, nitrites 0 and nitrates 5.

After watching Julie (female ram) closer, she is definitely not breathing normally. Coloring looks fine though and eating fine.

:(

[pinkertd]

Trying to figure out what happen to make his fins look like that. If it's not that the water quality is declining, there has to be another fish in there that's been beating on him. Those are the two biggest reasons for fin damage. Have you seen any of the other fish bullying him?

[Turbosaurus]

I agree with Debbi, Rams shouldn't be stressed at all with temps around 85, and that won't cause ratty fins. Either way, if its 80 degrees in the room, just remove the heater so it doesn't make things worse in the mean time. Put the new one in when you can.

Is it possible your ammonia kit is faulty/old? It is worth the piece of mind to create a control sample maybe? Add 3ml of household ammonia to liter of water (doesn't have to be exact) and test it with your kit to find out if it is properly recording positive results. Sometimes- especially if its been through a warm spell the reagents can degrade and become ineffective.

In a densely planted tank that you obviously take good care of the odds are against an ammonia spike, but I can't help but think the rapid breathing, the stress and the ratty fins all point to ammonia burns. What if you experienced a die off in the bacteria in your filter when it shut off? Could it take 48 hours+ for an ammonia spike to become evident? Your filter would still process some, and your plants will take some up, it could have taken a couple days to reach critical levels and with a filter that was still colonized the bacteria could have grown back relatively quickly? Perhaps your ammonia was only elevated for 2-3 days before things settled down and got back on track and what you are seeing now is just residual effects from some burns the fish might have experienced? With only one or two of your more delicate fish showing these symptoms and the filter malfunction I have to think that a slight temporary increase in ammonia is the most likely cause.

I don't know that there is more you can do than you've already been doing. Add an airstone (if you have one) to saturate the water with 02. The fish are breathing heavy, this will make it easier on them. Also, I would avoid the ice bottles. Rams really are fine in the low to mid 80s. I keep my rams at 82 all the time. The coreys may not like it too much, but the rams will be okay. The reason I think you should keep the temps warm is because ich can't attach to fish at 82+ and if the fish are already stressed you're more likely to experience an outbreak at lower temps. Better safe than sorry. Just like a heater that won't keep a constant temp, you'll find the same thing with frozen water bottles. If you have a real heatwave and it gets into the 90s, then you may have to take some action, but for mid 80s, don't mess with it.

[SmokingRay]

I think your tank needs more 02. The warmer the water the less O2 it can hold an at 83 water dos a larg drop in how much O2 it can hold. You do have a lot of stock in your tank not over stocked but as the water warms up you fish do not have the O2 they need.

[SmokingRay]

PS: If I'm rigth your 2 dwarf gourami should look happy as your other fish will look like they are breathing heavy an up at the top of your tank. Gourami don't need much O2 in the water.

[jenazen69]

One note on the water bottle idea. Make sure the water is treated just in case some leaks into the tank. I have also used a fan blowing across the water to cool the tank. I have a cooling desk fan that can be clipped on the tank for extra hot days. How old are your rams? The normal life span is about 3 years. Have the gourami stopped acting strange? If you have a tank you can quarantine him in , and he has showed no further signs of improvement I would try quarantining him. If he perks up and gets his color back without any meds, I would guess there is something stressing him in the main tank. It's possible that the strange behavior of your gourami are stressing him.

[june2000]

Thank you for the idea with the frozen bottle. I will try that.

I am using liquid test kit. My amonia is 0, nitrites 0 and nitrates were between 10 and 20. This has been steady forever. Also, I tested the water before I did the water change to be sure that I would have a reading of "before" in case it was something with the water.

I haven't fed snail jello, broccoli or cucumber since last week and Mark was fine at that time. My bloodworm batch which I forgot to list and do feed every 2 days is the same batch that's been in my freezer for awhile now. I'm getting to the end of the pack, can they go bad after a time?

Today Mark is breathing heavy, no color, fins still look horrible but I see him pooping and it is stringy looking.

I just looked again and he and the female are together (good sign as they were never apart when he was healthy) and his black stripes around his face are returning and I see some red/orange on his head. Body is still colorless. I also noticed gourami poop looks a little stringy just a little and female ram too although Mark is the only one who is looking or acting sick in any way. Female ram does look a little stressed and concerned about Mark as she keeps swimming near him and nosing him ever so gently. Everyone else looks fine and healthy.

I'm not feeding any new foods. Really, nothing has changed. Except 1 week ago my filter stopped working in the middle of the night. I noticed it and woke my husband. I tested water to try to get a sense of how long the filter had been out and it tested fine. We emptied out most of the sludge in the canister, rinsed the filter in tank water, put it all back together and it worked like new again. No tap water touched any of the parts. I tested the water the next day and it was fine (the usual 0 ammonia, 0 nitrites, 10 nitrates), tested water third day and it was fine so I relaxed and was happy that filter cleaning did not disturb the balance. I did not test again until last night when I noticed Mark was sick. At that time as I said everything was fine but nitrates were closer to 20 than usual but it was time for a water change so that was not surprising.

I really hope I can do something to save Mark. Julie (the female ram) seems a little stressed and keeps checking him out to see what's wrong with him. Now that I look at her again, she seems to be breathing a little weird too.

btw, I do use dechlor drops when doing water changes so it's not that either.

If you can see white stringy hanging poop, it could be a sign of internal parasite. It is not a bad idea to put him into QT and watch closely for couple of days. If he keep pooping white stringy poop and is not getting better, you may start somewhat mild internal parasite treatment.

[Zenz]

I bought the rams as babies in August or September so they aren't very old. The gouramis behavior is back to normal thankfully. When the water was hot, they were kind of racing around the tank and then they kept fanning up against each other.


In a densely planted tank that you obviously take good care of the odds are against an ammonia spike, but I can't help but think the rapid breathing, the stress and the ratty fins all point to ammonia burns. What if you experienced a die off in the bacteria in your filter when it shut off? Could it take 48 hours+ for an ammonia spike to become evident? Your filter would still process some, and your plants will take some up, it could have taken a couple days to reach critical levels and with a filter that was still colonized the bacteria could have grown back relatively quickly? Perhaps your ammonia was only elevated for 2-3 days before things settled down and got back on track and what you are seeing now is just residual effects from some burns the fish might have experienced? With only one or two of your more delicate fish showing these symptoms and the filter malfunction I have to think that a slight temporary increase in ammonia is the most likely cause.I'm starting to think that this is most likely what's going on.

The good news is that Mark is perking up!! His color looks a little nicer and he's swimming around instead of hiding. I also noticed that his back underneath fin is still there. I can see it now that he's swimming some. It is a little tattered though. Also, he is no longer swimming with tail going up.

One negative thing is that the female is currently releasing eggs and she is MAD that he is not doing his part. I think he is the one that usually digs the little spot and that was not done. I've never seen her releasing eggs before, I've only seen them after they were already in the "dip". Whenever that is the case, one of them guards them for a couple of days until they eventually eat them. This time, she is swimming around while releasing them and pushing him around trying to get him to do his thing.

I have my quarantine tank ready and I was going to put him in tonight if he still looked sick but I'm thinking that he might be on the upswing!

I made a video so you can see a little bit of their behavior. Unfortunately it's mostly out of focus, but that's the way it goes! At the beginning you can see the eggs she is releasing and his raggedy mohawk tips, and at the end you can see a bit of their breathing as well as his raggedy tail. Usually he was the one pushing her around like this. I've never seen her pushing him around.

Thanks for all the help!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=edJ4kD2FMrk


I tried to embed it here but it wouldn't work.

[pinkertd]

Whenever there's a question with the water quality, it will only help things to do a partial water change. See how they are after that. If you see that they are more comfortable do them daily for a while,

[Zenz]

Well now he's back to colorless (no black as well) and hiding. I guess time will tell. I'm thinking about the quarantine tank again.