View Full Version : Substrate depth and plants
corrieberry
06-10-2009, 1:21 AM
Just wondering if there is a minimum substrate depth you should have? I have about an inch all round my tank, it's not planted but I read somewhere that friendly bacteria only settle if it it's about four inches thick. That's a lotta sand!
Also I know people have asked loads but nobody seems to have asked about low light plants for goldfish? If they have, sorry for repeating again! I keep an oxygen weed in there but it's just for greenery so that I don't worry so much about their diets - they eat it pretty quickly so I don't know how it grows.
My LFS is kinda bad on a plants side, they just have a big tub with potted plants and plants bound in bundles with lead strips (why??). No ID or anything, there's no point going in unless I'm absolutely sure what I want because they don't know.
Kashta
06-10-2009, 5:05 AM
Hi corrieberry. You wouldn't want a substate depth that deep. A sand depth of 1 to 1.5 inches would be just fine. If this is a planted tank, you could go as deep as 2-3 inches, tops. But 4 inches would be way too deep and would become problemmatic.
With a sand substrate, you'll also need to stir it up gently and thoroughly across the entire bottom at least every few weeks. I would recommend doing so with each weekly water change. You should also consider getting a large number of MTS which will burrow into the sand and help keep it stirred. Without doing this, areas under this substrate layer will get compacted and pockets of places without oxygen (called anaerobic pockets) will form there. This oxygen depleted anaerobic pockets will produce deadly toxic hydrogen sulfide gas. Once this gas is disturbed if it has been allowed to build up (by failing to keep the sand stirred up enough), this gas will be released and it's enough to wipe out everything living in the tank all at once.
How big is this tank and how many goldfish are in it? (Also, which type of goldfish.. if you know?)
To answer your questions about recommended plant choices, there's a fairly good listing of them for you to see posted in this thread. The plants listed there all fall within the low-medium level for lighting requirements.
http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=196751
For the most part, the plants generally available in chain stores and most LFS sources are not very good. Do a little research first into some plant profiles for the plant varieties you're most interested in before you look very closely at the plants available to you locally. Most retailers sell a large number of plants that aren't even aquatic and cannot survive long-term underwater.
Let us know what other questions you may have. Best of luck!
The lead strips should be removed if you choose to buy those stem plants to allow light to penetrate the bottom part of the plants thus preventing it from rotting. Plant those plants individually. Never plant them altogether. Be careful with the plants you choose. A lot of goldfish like to shred them especially when these plants get in their way. My Egeria densa annoyed practically my watonai and fantail and they shred the plants into pieces. If possible, keep the plants on either sides of the tank and at the back so the middle area will be spacious enough and thus cannot interfere in their way. You could try the sturdy cryptocorynes, Amazon swords and anubias in the middle and front areas as those are low and have tough foliage thus cannot be damaged easily.
corrieberry
06-10-2009, 8:19 AM
Hi corrieberry. You wouldn't want a substate depth that deep. A sand depth of 1 to 1.5 inches would be just fine. If this is a planted tank, you could go as deep as 2-3 inches, tops. But 4 inches would be way too deep and would become problemmatic.
With a sand substrate, you'll also need to stir it up gently and thoroughly across the entire bottom at least every few weeks. I would recommend doing so with each weekly water change. You should also consider getting a large number of MTS which will burrow into the sand and help keep it stirred. Without doing this, areas under this substrate layer will get compacted and pockets of places without oxygen (called anaerobic pockets) will form there. This oxygen depleted anaerobic pockets will produce deadly toxic hydrogen sulfide gas. Once this gas is disturbed if it has been allowed to build up (by failing to keep the sand stirred up enough), this gas will be released and it's enough to wipe out everything living in the tank all at once.
How big is this tank and how many goldfish are in it? (Also, which type of goldfish.. if you know?)
To answer your questions about recommended plant choices, there's a fairly good listing of them for you to see posted in this thread. The plants listed there all fall within the low-medium level for lighting requirements.
http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=196751
For the most part, the plants generally available in chain stores and most LFS sources are not very good. Do a little research first into some plant profiles for the plant varieties you're most interested in before you look very closely at the plants available to you locally. Most retailers sell a large number of plants that aren't even aquatic and cannot survive long-term underwater.
Let us know what other questions you may have. Best of luck!
It's a 55G with a two orandas, a common and a comet. I'm thinking of sending the common and comet to the pond because I know there isn't enough space for them in the tank. They aren't big at the moment, and I have to talk the boyfriend round...give me time!
What is an MTS? I have been stirring it every water change, but not very vigorously because it takes ages to settle otherwise - it's extremely fine.
Lupin, I don't think we get chain stores here - I live in London (UK). I'm thinking of doing an order off the web, but again I have to talk my boyfriend around - just spent the better part of a months personal allowance on new tank, so have to start saving again!
What is an MTS? I have been stirring it every water change, but not very vigorously because it takes ages to settle otherwise - it's extremely fine.
MTS are Malaysian trumpet snails. These snails are regarded as "earthworms of the underwater garden" as these snails burrow under the ground during the day and will not appear until dusk. They are hermaphrodites and can proliferate quickly. For MTS, there are several species called under one common name. Considering their rate of reproduction, they should be free of charge if ever you ask your stores for those snails.
MTS are a great help in stirring the sand- I would highly recommend getting some... they won't eat plants- but they will eat left over food and a little algae. They look like little space aliens in conical hats to me. Interesting looking snails.
They will never completely replace an owner doing their part in stirring sand too though.!
MTS do burrow in the sand and move it around- but they don't go deep in the sand- staying in the top 1/4 to 1/2 inch... so if your substrate is deeper than that you still need to stir.
The 4+ inches of sand is generally more recommended for marine environments than freshwater environments. In freshwater we try to avoid anaerobic bacteria and stick with just the aerboic bacteria... in saltwater they try to encourage it.
Deep sand prevents oxygen getting to the bottom- and means anaerobic bacteria instead of aerobic bacteria grows there. (anaerobic bacteria can give off toxic gasses).
Kashta
06-10-2009, 8:34 AM
It's a 55G with a two orandas, a common and a comet. I'm thinking of sending the common and comet to the pond because I know there isn't enough space for them in the tank. They aren't big at the moment, and I have to talk the boyfriend round...give me time!
It's good that you already realize these fish would be overcrowded here and the tank will be overstocked. Your orandas will need 15 gallons of water per fish and your common and comet need 20 gallons of water per fish... as a minimum guideline.
The 4+ inches of sand is generally more recommended for marine environments than freshwater environments. In freshwater we try to avoid anaerobic bacteria and stick with just the aerboic bacteria... in saltwater they try to encourage it.
Deep sand prevents oxygen getting to the bottom- and means anaerobic bacteria instead of aerobic bacteria grows there. (anaerobic bacteria can give off toxic gasses).
To explain this a bit further, in marine environments, anaerobic bacteria break down the nitrate into the nitrogen gas which is thus the final and fourth stage of the nitrogen cycle as the nitrogen gas is released back in the atmosphere. Why this is not encouraged in freshwater tank, is that anaerobes themselves produce a highly dangerous substance, hydrogen sulfide which reeks similarly to rotten eggs. This is quite dangerous especially to the owner, not just the fish as hydrogen sulfide can cause acute respiratory problems.
corrieberry
06-10-2009, 1:42 PM
Wow thank you everyone, should be helpful. How big are the trumpet snails? I think I might have some in my ADF tank that I was going to transfer over but thought that they might get eaten...?
Kashta, if I put the common and comet into the pond, will I be able to get another fancy?
Wow thank you everyone, should be helpful. How big are the trumpet snails? I think I might have some in my ADF tank that I was going to transfer over but thought that they might get eaten...?
Kashta, if I put the common and comet into the pond, will I be able to get another fancy?
Trumpets usually grow no more than an inch. With their shell structure and presence of operculum (trapdoor), they have very little number of predators and goldfish certainly aren't going to attempt eating them.
Once you remove the common goldfish and comet, you can certainly add another fancy goldfish but you need to increase filtration capacity to cope with the wastes as they grow.
RNROCKSTAR6
06-10-2009, 6:16 PM
Ive always heard and confirmed later via various literature and so-called experts, including www.aquariumsands.com state no more or less than roughly 1.5 lbs / US Gallon.
Hope that helps!
corrieberry
06-11-2009, 11:29 AM
Ive always heard and confirmed later via various literature and so-called experts, including www.aquariumsands.com (http://www.aquariumsands.com) state no more or less than roughly 1.5 lbs / US Gallon.
Hope that helps!
It probably will in the future but I'm not going to try figure out how much I've got cos it's really fine and a pain to try get it to settle once you've hauled it out. But thanks!
Kashta and Wycco, I put a couple of MTS's in the tank, but it said on some website they will only proliferate loads if the water is warm. My tank isn't heated cos ambient temp. never gets low enough to make me feel like they need it, so am I just gonna have to keep hauling them out my ADF tank when I see some that are big enough.
On a side note when I dropped the first one in (getting into the top of the tank is a real problem and I'm on a study break, not a break into the drunk student proof fish tank) Lucy (the comet) had it in her mouth for about a minute trying to figure out if it was worth eating. She looked really funny - she flared as if she were facing off a betta and kept swallowing loads etc. If I've just laughed because my fish was suffocating I'm going to feel awful, but it was funny :grinyes:. The second was ignored by all. Hopefully I'll have a busy little hive of snail-bees in a few months!
(PS Lupin I have always removed the lead but I never thought of planting them seperately. Duh!)
Kashta
06-15-2009, 6:54 AM
Kashta, if I put the common and comet into the pond, will I be able to get another fancy?
Figure it this way, corrie...
3 fancies x 15 gallons each = 45 gallons at the absolute minimum. So a 55 gallon tank for the 3 fancies = perfect!
To calculate the level of filtration you need, shoot for a gph rating that's 10 times the number of gallons (tank size) per hour... 550 gph or as close to that as you can manage.
MTS are fairly resilient beasties. Goldfish may eat some- but they live in the substrate so unlikely they'll eat them all- that and they have extra tough shells.
Temperature wise I think they're sub-tropical, they probably prefer water that is warmer than what the goldfish prefer.
Regarding reproduction being slower with cooler water- very likely... they're cold-blooded- most snails do everything slower in colder water... the warmer the water the faster they'll live, grow, eat, reproduce and die. It may take longer to reproduce in cooler tanks... but I suspect they will. I've not kept them in cooler water so I'm not talking from experience... but they are really tough creatures and I believe they have a fairly wide temperature tolerance range.
corrieberry
06-15-2009, 9:16 AM
Figure it this way, corrie...
3 fancies x 15 gallons each = 45 gallons at the absolute minimum. So a 55 gallon tank for the 3 fancies = perfect!
To calculate the level of filtration you need, shoot for a gph rating that's 10 times the number of gallons (tank size) per hour... 550 gph or as close to that as you can manage.
Excellent! Now to work on the boyfriend...
MTS are fairly resilient beasties. Goldfish may eat some- but they live in the substrate so unlikely they'll eat them all- that and they have extra tough shells.
Mine do not eat MTS. The MTS do have extremely tough shells and they also have an operculum to avoid predation. The mouth of the goldfish is not versatile enough to suck the meat out of the shell, let alone try to swallow the snail including the shell which could potentially injure its organs due to the pointed tip of the shell. My goldfish ignore the MTS completely. None of my other snails were eaten either especially apple snails and ramshorns.
Temperature wise I think they're sub-tropical, they probably prefer water that is warmer than what the goldfish prefer.
To which is this referred to? "Fancy" goldfish can be classified as "subtropical" since they do prefer their water warmer than the "pond" goldfish (common goldfish, shubs and comets).
Flaringshutter
06-15-2009, 7:57 PM
corrie, you might consider buying some coarser sand or small pebbles to mix into your fine sand substrate. this will help prevent anaerobic pockets and will also make it easier for your fish to "sift and spit" without swallowing the sand. a little sand will pass right though their digestive systems, but a lot can be harmful.
as for snails, MTS are great - you might also consider the newer species of MTS coming out of Florida and nearby states. the wild adults can reach three inches long, and the captive-bred babies I have from these adults will surpass an inch in only a few months. i still don't have any captive babies larger than 1.5 inches, but they are certainly larger than most common MTS I have seen. aquabid is a great source for them.
corrieberry
06-16-2009, 2:26 AM
I will try get hold of them...I'm having some cash problems though, so unless I can get them from the UK I probably won't be able to import. Not even sure you're allowed to import? I will ask my LFS but they're a bit backward and I'm looking for somewhere else that's a good distance from me. They just got apple snails in and I asked how much they were only to be told there was no point buying them because they are a nuisance. If that's their advice, I don't know why they're selling them! I'll keep my eyes open!
Back to the sand - they sell a 'tropical' grit in the LFS which says on the bag that it's OK for freshwater. I think it's crushed shells. I didn't get it cos I didn't think I needed it and I didn't want to trust the bag, but this is definitely coarser than I have right now. Would it be OK?
Hun, I am pretty certain the LFS employees were talking about these "pest" snails such as pond snails (Lymnaea stagnalis). Apple snails are sexual and need a partner to be able to spawn. The egg clutches are laid above the water surface (with the exception of Asolene spixi and Marisa cornuarietis) and therefore can be removed out of the tank easily. If you do not want to hatch any more snails, simply freeze or crush the egg clutches.
Do you have pics of the "tropical grit"? If these are crushed shells, they're composed primarily of calcium carbonate which can increase both the pH and KH. Not a big deal with snails and goldfish as the KH increases thus the pH stabilizes and prevents pH from sliding which could potentially cause shell damage to the snails and with a large difference, might potentially harm the fish.
corrieberry
06-16-2009, 4:59 AM
Does that mean it would be ok to use? He told me they'll eat all my plants and I don't know much about them so I decided if I really want them I can research. Don't want to jump into something!
Does that mean it would be ok to use? He told me they'll eat all my plants and I don't know much about them so I decided if I really want them I can research. Don't want to jump into something!
Pomacea diffusa is okay. The rest of other apple snail species will consume plants. See this thread to distinguish the diffusas. Diffusas come in purple, green, jade, blue, gold and many other colors which the canas and most others don't. Contact bluerat or stezatois if you want mystery snails (Pomacea diffusa).
http://www.applesnail.net/forum3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=18486
corrieberry
06-16-2009, 4:21 PM
So the guy clearly lied to me. I don't know why I bother going there. I feel sorry for all the unsuspecting fish that get sold to people who don't know anything, because even if they want to learn they won't get it from the LFS. I will try get a photo of the grit tomorrow as I'm going in to get some new filter media etc. I suspect the snails are the diffusia ones, so I'll do some research before I make any decisions (unless someone feels like giving me a summary on care, requirements and advantages like the helpful one on GF in this forum...!)
I forgot the link to a summary of the diffusas!
http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1725725&postcount=8
corrieberry
06-17-2009, 10:12 AM
:thm: Boyfriend has given me the go-ahead on rehoming the single tailed fish...now I can start looking at which fancy is going to replace them...!
Psst...Ryukins or ranchus?:D
corrieberry
06-20-2009, 8:39 AM
Psst...Ryukins or ranchus?:D
I went into my LFS to check if they have anything other than orandas (in terms of fancies) and they had some beautiful ranchus...but they all have ich, and what's worse the water that is shared between all the tanks in the shop isn't treated properly. Whatever these poor fish have, everyone else has as well, and it was the final straw in a long list of faults that this particular LFS has so I've been searching out a new one. I've found one about an hour bus ride away that has the largest selection of goldfish I've ever seen in one place, and they are all in beautiful condition. Not a single dead fish in the tanks, an amazing plant tank...I've been converted. And they have a tank that spans the entire length and height of one of the walls where they put all the goldfish that are returned to them, so that's where mine are going! Now I just have to wait till I have a spare moment to get it done!:dance: (And wait for Ory to come out of quarantine so the new one can go into it...*sigh*)
Lovely! Pics?:D I like Ory in your avatar.:hearts:
corrieberry
06-20-2009, 8:56 AM
I love that photo too, was a complete fluke - I was trying to take a photo of Shillib and he scooted in front just as the shutter went. I did a painting of it and stuck it on the wall next to the tank, and now people look at the painting and immediately want to look at the tank. It's supposed to be the other way round! :rolleyes:
I didn't take my camera cos I was on my way to visit my parents and had a huge suitcase and my guitar, so space was limited. The guy behind the counter thought it was very amusing that I was struggling round the shop carrying all that stuff...anyway I will take the single tails (that has become their title in my head...like Lady or Sir...) to them this week and definitely take my camera.
And we all know the best thing about this situation is that I will *have* to go back to the shop lots to visit my lost babies...and pick up some new plants...check out the new deals on tanks...etc etc. Suddenly the LFS doesn't seem so evil anymore!