Round 2 **long post warning**

[ukclaire]

Hullo.

I was wondering if anyone could help.....

Back in August my partner and myself set up a 4 foot tank. We cleaned it thoughly, rinsed it out, put in 2 inches of gravel (that was cleaned as well), a couple of rocks and a big chunk of bogwood (soaked for 24 hrs and then rinsed).

We filled it up with water and ran it for 4 weeks without fish or plants. It has an eheim filter (no idea which one but was around £70) and a branded heater (the box looks like its from Miami Vice era).

After 4 weeks we put in 7 White Cloud Mountain Minnows and some plants. They were fed alternate days on flakes and frozen food. Water changes were 25% every Sunday.

After a further 5 weeks we added 6 Red Platies and some more plants. Feeding and water changes as above.

2 weeks later we added 1 Red Tailed Black Shark (he was mine) and 2 Clown Loaches plus some plants. Feeding/water the same as above.

Again after 2 weeks we then added 6 Serpe Tetra. Feeding/Water as above.

Then a week later I bought 2 more Clown Loaches.

Every time we added fish we took a water sample to the fish shop for testing.....all the levels were fine.

Everything went swimmingly :joke: for a further 5 weeks. My partners friend came round one day - both him and his father have kept fish for over 30 years between them - and he commented on how good they all looked. I had gone out early so hadn't seen them that morning. In the evening, around 4pm we gave them a block of frozen bloodworm, they all ignored it which was unusual.

I looked at them and they appeared to be gasping for breath even though the water was saturated and an airstone had been added a few weeks before, the Platies and the Loaches loved playing in the bubbles. I called for my other half as I was really worried. We took the fish out and immediatly did a water change but there was no difference after adding them back in.

So we turned out the lights and then my Shark hit the roof of the tank...!! about 30 mins later after we had both been searching on the internet for possible causes, we found the shark dead.. :( We immediatly fished him out and put him in a tupperware box. All the others were still gasping. The platies appeared to be nosediving, they were verticle with their mouths pointing into the gravel (eventually all the fish did that) then they went belly up. They survived belly up for about 30 mins before appearing to have one last burst of energy (or having a fit) and flying across the tank before dying.

It took each one 45 minutes to go....I could have set my watch by it. As each one went we took it out. The next morning (I stayed up all night looking after them and crying) we called several fish shops looking for an explaination. No one had any....they went through the ususal stuff...levels, visible diseases, etc. They all looked fine...well they had all lost their colours by that time but you understand.

One guy sugested that it might be high chloring levels and to check with the water board if they had been doing any work the previous week in our area. I phoned them on the Monday and they denied any work had been done.

So....all in all a complete mystery. We never had the fish autopseyed (sp).

Now I panic about my new lot ...we started over by bleaching the tank and cleaning it, threw away the gravel and the plants, we soaked the rocks and bogwood in salted water for 4 days then in clear water for 3 after that.

We now have 12 5-lined barbs in there and 3 female bettas. I am hoping to get another RTBS and Clown Loaches, the other "must haves" are an Upside Down Catfish (for him) and a male Betta for me. He also wants a Silver Shark but it could be a bit too much.

So...can anyone give me any idea what could have caused them all to go so quickly...? and will the new fish be compatable...?

Sorry for the long post.

Regards
Claire

[sumoschro]

sorry about the tank:( ....

about the problem, did you get all the fish from the same LFS?
If you did it could be that it was a problem with the fish, and not the water. they may have had a disease, some sort of parasite or something...

because of the fact that they didnt eat the bloodworm and tht ll the water levels were fine i would bet that it was an internal parasite or other internal disease.

as a side note...dont bet on the RTBS/silver shark and the male betta getting along too well (definite fin nipping)

[ukclaire]

Hi.

Err...yes. They all came from the same fish shop. It was recommened to us by 3 different people.

The weird thing is they all went on the same day. It was literally 12 hours from start to finish.

Really the RTBS wont get on...? damm. I have always wanted a male betta as well.

My RTBS was a complete softy. We had 2 tunnels in the tank and loads of plants, the shark had made the left one his...then the Clown Loaches kicked him out...so he went to the other one and the Platies booted him out of that one. The Minnows wouldnt let him in the plants so he used to stick his head in the end of the tunnel with the back half hanging out. Persume he though if he couldnt see us then we couldnt see him. :D

He was always getting pushed around. Poor thing.

Claire

[ukclaire]

Forgot to mention - we now use Tapsafe in the new water. We also clean (and did clean) the gravel with one of those tubes.

In the original tank the plants were growing at a heck of a rate. I was doing cuttings virtually ever week. In the new tank the plants aren't growing as quickly. Its been over 10 weeks and I still havent taken any cuttings.

There are 2 lights in there - one is for plant growth the other for fish.

They do get fed every evening with one block of frozen food just like the original guys.

Regards
Claire

[Wippit Guud]

Only time I've seen fish asping, at least in my experience, was when my 3 year old dumped an entire can of tetra flakes into the tank. That kind of thing wouldn't show up on water quality.

Ad for the shark/betta thing... it wouldn't be the shark who causes the problem. But when it happened in my tank, the shark definitely ended it (after ignoring the betta for a long time)

[Slappy*McFish]

Your fish died from poisoning...though I have no clue as to what 'poison' it might have been. There are many toxins that are capable of wiping out a tank.

1. chlorine/chloramine(ammonia)
2. toxic metals(lead/copper/iron)
3. pesticides
4. houshold cleaning products(soap/glass cleaner)
5. overdosing of medications
6. unsuitable decor/equipment(naturally collected rocks or wood sometimes can harbor harmful toxins/chemicals)
7. manufacturing chemicals present in products used in the maintenance of the tank that weren't designed for use with aquariums(some plastics, garden hoses)
8. paints, varnishes, glues, dyes, and the fumes from such.
8. unsuitable plants(Dieffenbachia)
9. poorly stored foods can lead to aflatoxin poisoning(rare)
10. smoke, airfresheners, aerosol polishes that may land on the water surface.
11. excess CO2 gas

[ukclaire]

Poisoned...? erk.

There is a tight fitting lid on the tank that is always closed apart from at feeding time or waterchanged.

We dont use airfresherner in that room and the only other room on that floor is the kitchen and there is no fresherner in there.

There is a coffee table about 3 foot from the fish and at a lower level so it cant have been the spray for cleaning that...I dont think anyways.

The only thing it could be is if we had something on our hands when we were doing the water change/replanting afterwards. The water change happed on the Thursday and they went on the Saturday and the fish were fine in the meantime - unless it was slowly killing them.

We wash our hands under running water before putting them into the tank - no soap just water.

:scratch: I think its going to remain a mystery as to the actual cause/poison - just like the location of Atlantis.

Thanks for the replies.

Regards
Claire

[Slappy*McFish]

Anoxic gravel can poison fish with hydrogen sulfide gas and/or methane, as well. But since your tank was relatively new, and the fact that you gravel-vac, I doubt that's what killed them either. One of life's mysteries, I suppose.

[OrionGirl]

Is there an air pump running anything on the tank? If so, any chemicals sprayed in the room--even from a distance--could very easily have gotten into to the tank.

[Slappy*McFish]

Is there an air pump running anything on the tank? If so, any chemicals sprayed in the room--even from a distance--could very easily have gotten into to the tank.


I looked at them and they appeared to be gasping for breath even though the water was saturated and an airstone had been added a few weeks before, the Platies and the Loaches loved playing in the bubbles. I called for my other half as I was really worried. We took the fish out and immediatly did a water change but there was no difference after adding them back in.

That was one of my suspicions, as well.

Claire, if you could remember what you were doing that day around the tank or in the room, that might shed some light on the subject. Also, if you could list all plants and decorations in the tank and where you got them. Hopefully, this won't happen again.

[ukclaire]

Hi,

I can take a picture this evening of the room and a close up of the tank. The tank hasnt moved and the plants are the same as before.

The only one that is different which we dont have now, was a plant that looked like an onion and grew at a fantastic rate...its leaves spread over the top of the water.

I do have a small video of the old fish before any of this happened...not sure of any hosting for it though.

I didnt see them that day - straight down the stairs and ut of the door. The other half had his friends and his son (18 months) around but the kid didnt go near the tank to put anything in - it cant walk yet.

The water change was on the Thursday - all seemed fine, I came back around 4pm and noticed them gasping. Roop said the fish were swimming round at 2pm looking normal.

:confused:

The air pump is a sealed external unit that plugs into the wall. A tube goes from there into the tank with an airstone on the end.

Claire

Edited to say: decorations are live plants, 2 pieces of slate, 1 bogwood and 2 tuynnels. They will be in the pic I post later and are in the same places as before.

[ukclaire]

These two are of the original tank with just the White Cloud Mountain Minnows in. As you can see there are not many plants in there - but at the end there were more plants but of the same variety.

We have the same in the new tank apart from the "onion plant" you can see its leaves, the broad ones) in the close up.

Full Pic (http://cocktails.diaryland.com/images/dscf0015.jpg)

Close Up (http://cocktails.diaryland.com/images/dscf0011.jpg)

I took some pics just now but cannot get them off my phone as I cant find the Bluetooth thingy. Will get some at the weekend.

The Tank is in a corner furtest away from the front enterence ( to the back left of the pic) and the kichen is behind the wall to the right of the tank and the door is about 10-12 feet from the tank.


Regards

Claire

[chefkeith]

I hope I’m not way off base here.
Being that clown loaches were added to your tank, I'd say that you had a massive outbreak of ich. All your fish's slime coats were probably tip top, so you had no visible signs of ich. They just got ich in the gills. That’s what the gasping was all about. I've had about a dozen clown loaches die for the same reasons. Gasping air for a few hours, then jumping out of the water, then sinking right to the bottom, then they are officially dead about an hour later.

It’s strange that the ich outbreak was 5 weeks after you got them. I've had outbreaks show after the 3rd week.

Secondary ich problems can be even worse than a quick death.
I had one clown loach that after ich had cleared, 1) swam in counter clockwise circles 2) have a massive seizure 3) sink to the bottom. 4) Breathe rapidly for awhile 5) repeat steps 1 - 4. The poor clown done this for 16 hours a day. I didn't have the heart to euthonize him. After about a week, I gave him the name Maximus (from the movie Gladiator). After 3 weeks he finally died. Amazing fish. I believe the fish was brain damaged from running into the wall of the aquarium when he had an ich itch in its gill. I think this because the fish could only swim in one direction, which was to its left.

You really need to start quarantining your new fish, especially the clown loaches.
Start a quarantine procedure for all your fish.
Example, for Clown loaches-
When you get your fish home, in the travel baggy, for 45 minutes, acclimate fish to the q-tank water. Add fish to q-tank; do not add bag water to q-tank.
Slowly raise the temp. to 85F, and slowly add 1 Tbls salt per 5 gallons of water. Raise temp only 2F per day.
20% Water changes every 5th day (or whenever)
If they show signs of ich, (know the ich cycle, study ich, their lives depend on it) add more salt until you have 1Tbls per gallon, or you can treat them for a minimum of 2 weeks (be careful here) with an anti-parasite medication (like Coppersafe) or a medicated food.
If they never get ich, quarantine them for 3 weeks minimum. If they do get ich, it might take 6 weeks.
Slowly lower the tanks temp and salt concentration to match your main tank.
Take half the water out of q-tank; then slowly add water from the main tank to q-tank to acclimate your fish to main tanks water. Wait a few hours. Then put fish in main tank.
Don't overstock your q-tank either. Q-tanks have to be stress free, w/dim lighting and hiding spots.
Not all fish like high temps, so change your procedure accordingly.

Sometimes you’ll lose fish when q’ing them, but at least your fish from the main tank won’t be affected.

Maximus was in a q-tank when he had ich. I’m sure glad he didn’t infect the fish in my main tank.

Most people here q their fish. You’ll find a lot info if you search the threads here at aquaria central.

[chefkeith]

After looking at your tank, here's a few more suggestions-

Is that a 40G long tank? Just a guess, thats what it looks like from the picture. Anyways, it probably only has 30-35 gallons of water in it, minus after all the gravel and decorations.

I really hate to mention this, I really do,
but you might have overstocked your last tank also.

Adult size of your fish-
1 Redtail Shark = 5",
6 Platy's x 2.5"=15",
4 clown loach (will get 12") = 48",
6 Tetras x 2"= 12",
7 wc minnows x I'm not sure but 1" sounds good =7"

That tank was destined to have major problems sooner or later. The clown loaches would of easily out grown the tank in a few years.

[CordyRoy]

Did you cycle the first tank? What were the water parameters when the fish died? Nitrites? Ammonia, etc? I know that with Nitrite/Ammonia poisoning, fish can be seen gasping for air at the surface. But you did do water changes, so it seems unlikely. I think the combination of a possible Ich Outbreak and overcrowding are the likely culprits.
Also, you shouldn't be feeding frozen foods every day. Once or twice a week is sufficient while using a good quality flake/pellet in the meantime. I would think that any leftovers from your bloodworm would make the water quality less than optimal.

[ukclaire]

Originally posted by chefkeith
After looking at your tank, here's a few more suggestions-

Is that a 40G long tank? Just a guess, thats what it looks like from the picture. Anyways, it probably only has 30-35 gallons of water in it, minus after all the gravel and decorations.

I really hate to mention this, I really do,
but you might have overstocked your last tank also.

Adult size of your fish-
1 Redtail Shark = 5",
6 Platy's x 2.5"=15",
4 clown loach (will get 12") = 48",
6 Tetras x 2"= 12",
7 wc minnows x I'm not sure but 1" sounds good =7"

That tank was destined to have major problems sooner or later. The clown loaches would of easily out grown the tank in a few years.

Hi,
We did have a LOT of gravel in there....in the new tank there is about a quarter of that.

I didnt realise CL got that big. When I was looking them up on the internet it said they got to about a foot in the wild but only 6 inches in Tank situations.

I will post what the new tank is going to have in it soon...still making final decisions. I want another tank for the oposite wall.

Claire

[ukclaire]

CordyRoy

They got frozen food every day (apart from one days of no food at all) but it wasnt just bloodworm, it was shrimp, beefheart, daphne etc...a multipack is what we used so they got a wide variety of the stuff. We also had flakes but they didnt like them so it was put in a draw.

Yes we did cylce the tank for 4 weeks before putting in the first lot of fish. See my original post for time scales.

When it happened we took readings and took a sample of water to the fish shop we now use and they spent about 30 minutes doing all sorts of tests on the water.

All the levels were bang on.

I am going to go with poisoning.

Thats just reminded me of another question... :rolleyes: :D

Cheers

Claire

[chefkeith]

Originally posted by ukclaire



I didnt realise CL got that big. When I was looking them up on the internet it said they got to about a foot in the wild but only 6 inches in Tank situations.

Claire

There's not much accurate info out there about Clown Loaches. Clown Loaches can get over 24" in the wild and live over 50 years. If given the proper tank size, they'll get to 14" and over 20 years old easily. They are slow growers though, expect the growth rate of about an inch per year until they reach adulthood, which is about 10-12 inches and about 10-12 years.
A few people on the net have large clown loaches.

Here's a few good links for Clowns
http://www.bobd.lunarpages.com/loaches/cind01.html
http://aquatic-hobbyist.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=16
http://loaches.com/species_pages/botia_macracanthus.html

[ukclaire]

They look cool all swimming together. We did have 4 Cl but I think we will either have 3 or 5 next time.

I dont think it was Ich to be honest, they didnt show any of the signs.

The new fish shop quarentenes the fish for 10 days before they are put on sale anyway and if something then happens they dont sell any more from that tank untill its treated.


Regards
Claire

[Slappy*McFish]

Clown Loaches can get over 24" in the wild

I'm curious...what is your source of information for this fact?..as I have never heard this before. Most sources I have ever read claimed around a 12-14" max size(+/-) for clowns in the wild and in large aquaria. I saw one claim of 18".

[CordyRoy]

Clown Loaches will still not be happy in a 40. They need at least a 75 to start out in, then a 150 once they get larger. Why not try a zebra loach? They stay smaller and are just as entertaining.
About the cycling thing, it only said in your post that you set it up empty for four weeks. Were you adding ammonia in this time period to allow the bacteria to grow?

[ukclaire]

Hi,
The tank was set up as per the fish shops instructions and seconded by our new fish shop.

We put in the gravel, slate, tunnels and bogwood and set the filter running.

After 4 weeks we then added the Mountain minnows and some plants as we were told this is the best way to start them off.

Only doing what we were told to do. :confused:

Cheers
Claire

[chefkeith]

Originally posted by Slappy*McFish


I'm curious...what is your source of information for this fact?..as I have never heard this before. Most sources I have ever read claimed around a 12-14" max size(+/-) for clowns in the wild and in large aquaria. I saw one claim of 18".

We'll start here

http://aquatic-hobbyist.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=16

I've got a few more somewhere.
Will post them in a few.

Edit-
*Update- I asked the writer of that profile/article about where the 24" clown loach was from. I think it was at the Vancouver Aquarium, but I'm not sure. I'll get confirmation soon.

[CordyRoy]

Then your tank was never properly cycled. This happens with many people new to the hobby. A tank must be cycled(i.e. beneficial bacteria must be working) in order to sustain fish. THe bacteria process the ammonia and nitrites the fish give off. Essentially, you could have just put your fish in immediately--youw aited four weeks for nothing. It happens often. I would reccomend you do a fishless cycle this time, that will get your tank off on the right foot. Here is an easy explanation. You can also go to www.skepticalaquarist.com and research the nitrogen cycle.

http://aquatic-hobbyist.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=15

This explains the fishless cycle in layman's terms. I followed this guide when starting out and never looked back. You also MUST MUST MUST have your own testing kit. Don't depend on the pet store for all your testing. Do it yourself and then if you get a reading you don't expect, double check with the LFS.
I see that you are in the UK. Pure ammonia may be hard to come by. Some people have used rotting fish food with much success. Quaggar from Aquatic-Hobbyist.com is one of those people. Post or Private Message him if you have questions.
The important thing is to have an ammonia source for your bacteria to live on, whether it be pure ammonia, rotting fish food, etc.

[ukclaire]

Hi,

It was apparentlly to get rid on any excess gravel dust and that water had enough bacteria in it already.

We do have our own kit and get it tested at our new shop as well.

With the new tank we only left it for a week before putting in 6 5 banded barbs with plants. We used tapsafe as well.

They seems to be going ok...touch a lot of wood.

Claire

[CordyRoy]

It was apparentlly to get rid on any excess gravel dust and that water had enough bacteria in it already.

Huh? Are you talking about being cycled? The bacteria load has nothing at all to do with ridding the tank of gravel dust. And if your tank had nothing LIVING in it, then there's a slim(very slim) possibility enough bacteria was present to sustain a full bioload of fish.

Please look at the sites I've mentioned and test your water EVERY DAY for Ammonia/Nitrites. If ANY Ammonia or Nitrites are present, do a water change to avoid killing your fish.