Another Cycle Question, sorry.

[Kelly]

I am really sorry to keep bombarding you all with questions but I am not sure what is going on in my cycling right now.:( I am learning more everyday, but can't find much info on this.

To give background in case any of you have forgotten or not read my posts before I am doing a fishless cycle on my 29 gallon tank. It has been almost two weeks now....the ammonia has been going to 0 everyday for the last 4-5 days so I seed it with enough to bring it back up to 2.4ppm. The Nitrates are off the chart and have been ever since the ammonia dropped. The Nitrites have dropped from off the chart to 1.6ppm in the last day or so. I am using a Hagen Test Kit.

Here are my water tests from yesterday...12-10

tank temp 78-80 degrees
ammonia 0 - brought back up to 2.4ppm
Nitrites- down to 1.6 after being off the chart
Nitrates- off the chart
PH- has dropped from 7.6 to 6.6 (last tested PH on the 6th)
GH 140
KH 20

I did a 80% change to try to get the nitrates down on the 7th and it did nothing to the levels, when I tested again they were the same. I am using a chlorine and chloramine neutralizer called Insto- Chlor from Jungle.

Now, here is the kicker...I have some algae in the tank..I noticed it yesterday. ?? Is this from the high nitrate levels or what is going on? It is a dark green looking stuff.

Is all of this normal when cycling a tank or what can I do?? Why has the PH dropped? Is that normal? I just want this cycle to be DONE LOL. Also, I don't know much about the GH and KH...what do those mean and are my readings okay?

There are some rocks, and fake plants in the tank now and gravel substrate. I will be adding some driftwood and live plants when the tank is cycled.

Thank you VERY much for any help or reassurance you can give. :D

Kelly

[CordyRoy]

You don't need to worry about water changes while cycling. And your nitrates are not so important at this point. When cycling is complete(i.e. ammonia/nitrite levels drop in 12 hours or less), you do a 90%water change before adding fish. This should correct any nitrAte problems you have. Once all your bacteria is in place, the nitrate levels will drop rapidly.
About the pH, I don't know what to tell you other than the same thing happened to me. When I first started cycling, pH was at 7.8. By the end of the cycling period, it was at neutral and has stayed there ever since. I never got a clear answer on why that happened. Also, your driftwood will drop the pH a bit.
May I ask why you didn't put the live plants in at the start of the cycle?
Hope this helps. Hang in there!! Before long, your cycle will be finished and you'll be shopping for fish!

p.s. The algae is NORMAL. Every new tank goes through many algae phases. Once your tank reaches the 4-5 month mark, the algae will start to subside. Also, planting heavily will help with your algae--the plants will outcompete the algae for food.

[TKOS]

Actually you are doing the right thing with water changes. As you mentioned the high nitrates will slow the cycle down and a water change won't hurt the cycle at all. Yes, the algae is probably from the high nitrate levels. You don't really need to have your tank lights on if you do at the moment. Cutting back on the light will reduce the algae. I can't remember the nitrate threshold but it should be kept fairly low to get the cycle speeding along.

As for the pH drop, I guess something is using the buffer in your water supply. Sometimes CO2 fromt eh air can form carbonic acid in the water and this will eat away at your buffer and you will experience a drop. But water changes will fix that as they replenish the buffer. When your tank is up and running you will be doing more frequent water changes and that shouldn't be a problem.

Aren't you glad to be getting all of the problems out of the way before the fish get put in? A lot less painful this way and think of all of the knowledge you get to pass on!!

[OrionGirl]

The bacteria processing ammonia and nitrites are also contributing acids to the tank, which will deplete the buffer. You may want to test your alkalinity, and add some crushed coral or shells to the tank to replenish the buffer. Low alkalinity tanks will be prone to pH crashes, unless you do lots and lots of water changes (depending on how low it is, and what the bio-load of the tank is).

Whenever you measure 'off the charts', keep in mind that you have no way of knowing how much off the chart your values may be. For example, if your scale goes up to 100, off the chart could be 101, or it could be 500. During fishless cycling, it's a not a big deal, but you will need to do large water changes until you can test and determine nitrates are less than 20.

If you really want to know how high nitrates are, you can dilute the water for testing, and remember the ratio of dilution added. Then multiply the test results by that factor.

Algae growth is probably related to the high nitrates. For now, I would suggest manual removal when you do your final large water change before adding fish. Until then, it won't hurt anything, and will help reduce nitrates.

[TKOS]

So was I off base with the water change right now to reduce nitrates or should Kelly wait until the cycle is done?

[RTR]

Nitrification itself eats KH. One milliequivalent of nitrogen processed from ammonia to nitrate burns up two milliequivalents of carbonate hardness (KH), so the pH of the tank drops. If I were seeing significant drops in pH, I'd do the water change(s) to keep it up by replenishing the natural buffering of water. So I do not disagree w/TKOS suggestion at all, I just have a slightly different interpretation - the nitrates themselves will not hurt the bacteria, but the loss of KH and resulting pH drop surely can - so I'll give to TKOS on points. :)

Agree w/OG on dilution testing for readings which are off scale. But knowing what your water KH from the tap is important before you start doing water mods. Monitoring pH during fishless cycling is proper and can save a lot of time and headache.

[TKOS]

Always something to learn. No wonder so many fish die during a fishy cycle.

[Kelly]

Thank you for all of the responses and help. :) It has helped clear some things up a little. :D Chemistry has never been my strong point though so I am still a little baffled. LOL

So I should keep up with the water changes to help replenish the buffers? (but not worry about the algae)

How do I test the alkalinity?

Should I go ahead and put some crushed coral or shells in the tank to help with the buffer now, or wait until the cycle in complete?

Why if I did a large water change (80%) did the nitrates not go down a little?

I am sorry to keep asking questions, but it is really helping me to learn from you all so that I can have a great tank. :D I learn better with people giving me advice then I do reading, although I am reading lots of different forums and every thread I can find that has to do with cycling. I get so confused by some of it and other parts make perfect sense. ;) I might end up being a 'fish expert' by the end of this. LOL

Thanks again!
Kelly

[TKOS]

The best part when you are done is that you can take all of this great knowledge and pass it on to others. That is the greatest thing about these forums.

Maybe your nitrates are just that high.

What is the pH of the water you use to change your tank water with?

[Kelly]

Yes, it will feel great to help someone else out. :)

I tested my water straight from the tap and the PH was
7.0-7.2ppm

when I had first set up my tank and was testing it it was around 7.6ppm

I did test for nitrates in my tap water awhile back too and they were 0.

Thanks for your help TKOS. :D

[TKOS]

So I wouldn't worry about adding any crushed coral or shells. Just keep up with good water changes and that should help keep the pH stable.

Unless of course you want to keep fish that like a higher pH, like cichlids or gouramis etc...

[RTR]

You can test the buffering by KH tests. Tetra makes an inexpensive combo kit of GH and KH. If you tap water is KH of 5 degrees of more you have no problems. At KH 3 degrees or less you will need to watch the pH, and it is too soft for high ammonia fishless without additions.

[Kelly]

I have a test for KH/GH in my test kit. When I did the test my results from the water in my tank were...

GH- 140 which my kit says means I have moderately hard water
KH-20 which my kits says "is normally addociated with a low pH, good for fish that prefer acidic conditions" this is for results 20-80.

or for <20mg -adjust with appropriate buffer if needed.

I don't know if these tests are accurate during the cycle though. Will I need to worry about it more once it is done cycling and I want to get the water conditions right for the fish I wish to keep?

I tested my water straight from the tap and these were the results...

GH-80 - test kit says slightly hard
KH-40- that falls in the same range as the test I did for the tank water.

I read that I can soften the water in my tank by putting peat in the filter...is this true? I would like to soften my water a bit since I would like to keep Blue Rams in my tank. Should I do the peat after the tank is cycled?

Is there anything else I should know about my results?

Thanks for the help!
Kelly- who is really greatful for you guys! :D

[carpguy]

The GH is fine. General hardness isn't as critical as KH or carbonate hardness, which is the alkalinity measure.

The numbers you are getting are in parts per million. Sometimes you'll see them listed as degrees of hardness. The conversion is 17.something ppm/degree. I usually just use 17. That's going to give you a KH somewhere between 1 and 2.5 which, as RTR mentions above, is on the low side of the coin. The lower figure is probably due to the extreme conditions of the fishless and the tap figure more normal: low, but not critically so. You should be watchful but not alarmed.

The low KH explains the big slip in your pH from bioacidification. And its something you'll want to be careful of. Regular water changes will replenish the buffer. If its allowed to go too long it could get used up and you could wind up with a pH crash. The KH acts as a sponge, absorbing acid in the water. It'll keep the pH fairly stable. Once its used up the pH can drop suddenly and dramatically. A little bit of crushed coral in a mesh bag in your filter can provide a KH safety net if water changes don't do the trick.

Peat won't affect your moderate GH, but it can lower your already low KH by further acidifying the water. I'd stay away from it for the time being.

Rams are a beautiful fish. They're also a bit on the delicate side and are usually not recommended for beginners. If you do the research and feel like you can provide a safe and stable enviroment thats all to the good, but I think I'd wait until the second tank ;) :D

[Kelly]

Thanks sooo much Carpguy, you made that crystal clear. :)

I tested my water again this morning, cuz I hadn't done the GH and KH for a while. This is what I got...

ammonia 0
Nitrites 1.6
Ph 7.6 (back up again after the water change)
GH 100
KH 20

I did of course seed the tank with more ammonia.

I really appreciate the help. Should I go ahead and put the crushed coral in now or wait until it is filtered? Any kind of crushed coral better then the other?

Thanks!
Kelly

[carpguy]

I'm in the same boat as you are with the KH and the pH. Low. If it looks like you're closer to 1 dKH than to 3, I'd give the coral a try.

The coral will dissolve very slowly over time. Slow and stable. A much better natural alternative to the bottled chemicals IMHO. Doesn't much matter what crushed coral you use. I'd see if you could get a cup or so from the Local Fish Store. A small bag for a few bucks will be a lifetime supply. I'd start with a teaspoon per 10g and take it from there. A mesh filter bag or old nylon in the filter will keep it in a high flow area. Its slow, so it might take a week or so before you really start seeing the KH creep up. Just enough to get you up near 3 dKH (45-50ppm) should do the trick.

I haven't seen the mighty WetFeller around lately (haven't been much around myself) but he has a great website called the SkepticalAquarist (http://www.skepticalaquarist.com) where he explains all this and a whole lot more. Bookmark it right away! (Look under Water: Dissolved Minerals: KH/Alkalinity)