product safe start any good?

[Flamfish]

I've just come home from the pet shop. I picket up the lighting you guys recommended. 8000k bulb for the 55 gal and 2 26 watt bulbs with 10.0 uvb for the 10 gal. I also picked up the heater.
I picked up an anacharis plant. (looks a little brown in spots, will it come back alright?)
I also picked up a product from tetra called safe start. it's supposed to have good bacteria. the ppl at the lfs say you can add it to your water and add fish the next day. I still plan on waiting and using the new parameter tests I picked up but is this product worth the money. will it speed the cycling process. if it gets good reviews here I try it in the 10 gal. (he had it refrigerated)
I'm not so sure how much I trust his opinion because he was appauled at the thought of adding ammonia and said he never heard of it.
I should add 1/4 tsp of ammonia to each tank right?

[67chevelle]

If you are going to use the tetra safe start,don't add the ammonia.Do it one way or the other.Fishless cycling with ammonia,or add fish with the TSS.I used some TSS when the cycle in one of my 55's crashed.It worked fine for me,but I have heard that it has not worked at all for some people.It is shelf stable,there is no reason to refrigerate it.
When I used it,the ammonia in my tank went from 2ppm to 0ppm overnight.

[bushwhacker]

tetra safe start is one of the only products on the market that actually work

[Flamfish]

ok, so if I add the TSS I should add fish within a day or two and not wait and keep testing to be sure it doesn't fluctuate too much?
the 26 watt bulbs are too big for the light, I'm gonna have to take them back for the 13 watt bulbs.

[67chevelle]

It's been awhile since I used it,but I believe you add it then add your fish at the same time.I know you are not supposed to do any water changes for 7 to 10 days,and I believe they don't recommend testing either.Something about it giving false readings.

[Flamfish]

wow, that makes me a little nervous. I just added the TSS and everyone said so much about how important constant testing is for the first few weeks. But I guess I'm committed now huh? lol
I'll do the slower cycling in the larger tank and compare the differences.
I guess I'll pick up some fish while taking the lights back. there should be an algae eater in every tank right? should I add one at the same time as the neons?

[67chevelle]

The TSS makes it a bit different.I'll look for some articles,I think I heard that testing is not necessary,but I am sure you are not supposed to do water changes.I believe it says on the back of the bottle not to do water changes.
I know when I used it I tested the water the next day.It was a little different situation though.I had the cycle in a tank crash,and the fish were gasping at the bottom of the tank.So I tested the water,it was like 2ppm.I went out and got the TSS and added it.When I got home from work the next day the fish seemed fine so I tested the water,it was 0ppm.
I think the reason not to test is that it can give false readings,and people will then do a water change,which makes it useless.I could be wrong about that though.

[Flamfish]

Cool, thanks for all the help. it's too late for me to make it back to the store today so I'll try to get there monday before work. I'll keep you posted on how things turn out.

[jpappy789]

Always test. There is no guarantee with any of the "quick cycle" products as you can easily get a faulty batch. Thats a disaster waiting to happen if you do not monitor the params.

I don't know why you would get faulty readings. If there is some form of ammonia present, a test will pick it up, which means the bacteria are not working at full strength yet and you need to do a wc asap otherwise risk causing damage to the fish.

The best plan would be to use this WITH the ammonia, rather than relying on it when you have fish. That way you do not have to worry about wc's and can be more lenient with testing. Plus, no risk with fish lives.

[JimL]

ok, so if I add the TSS I should add fish within a day or two and not wait and keep testing to be sure it doesn't fluctuate too much?
the 26 watt bulbs are too big for the light, I'm gonna have to take them back for the 13 watt bulbs.

TSS is a lot like "Prime" it detoxicifies Ammonia as well as adds bacteria. You can put your test kit away. The only one that will get stressed out will be You during this process. The fish will addapt just fine. Watch out for algae growth on glass, rocks, and plants. This will be the time to get pleco if you were wanting one, you'll wonder where the algae went. I keep 1 or 2 pleco of one type or another in all of my tanks. I don't like scraping algae.

[67chevelle]

The best plan would be to use this WITH the ammonia, rather than relying on it when you have fish. That way you do not have to worry about wc's and can be more lenient with testing. Plus, no risk with fish lives.

TSS is not made to be used with ammonia.If the fishless cycle with ammonia is what you want to do,don't waste your money on the TSS.If you do use it,just follow the directions on the bottle.I would be cautious in using it if the place you are buying it from refrigerates it though.

[jpappy789]

TSS is a lot like "Prime" it detoxicifies Ammonia as well as adds bacteria. You can put your test kit away. The only one that will get stressed out will be You during this process. The fish will addapt just fine. Watch out for algae growth on glass, rocks, and plants. This will be the time to get pleco if you were wanting one, you'll wonder where the algae went. I keep 1 or 2 pleco of one type or another in all of my tanks. I don't like scraping algae.
Not really at all.


SafeStart® accelerates the establishment of the bio-filter in newly set-up freshwater aquariums. The live bacteria start working immediately to provide a safe and healthy environment for your fish without the long wait. SafeStart can also be used after a water change, when adding new fish or after medicating.

from http://www.tetra-fish.com/sites/tetrafish/catalog/productdetail.aspx?id=1276&cid=3582

It only claims to add the bacteria. Hence why if you get a bad batch and are not monitoring the params you would be in a bad situation. You need to be able to catch ammonia/nitrite and deal with it asap. Fish will not "adapt" to these substances, they will cause damage of some sort at any readable level.

I highly recommend not just getting a pleco for the sake of one. If you really want to know why, read this (http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=199476)thread

[jpappy789]

TSS is not made to be used with ammonia.If the fishless cycle with ammonia is what you want to do,don't waste your money on the TSS.If you do use it,just follow the directions on the bottle.I would be cautious in using it if the place you are buying it from refrigerates it though.
Please explain how a product that adds the beneficial bacteria necessary for an aquarium cannot handle pure ammonia?

Tetra claims that you can add fish instantly. Thats what they are banking on, people will buy this because it is easier than a fishless cycle. It has nothing to do with the Safe start product itself.

my point is that you can use this as a jump start. it is the same as seeding from another tank while using pure ammonia rather than fish to make sure the cycle runs its course without risking the fish.

[67chevelle]

Not really at all.


from http://www.tetra-fish.com/sites/tetrafish/catalog/productdetail.aspx?id=1276&cid=3582

It only claims to add the bacteria. Hence why if you get a bad batch and are not monitoring the params you would be in a bad situation. You need to be able to catch ammonia/nitrite and deal with it asap. Fish will not "adapt" to these substances, they will cause damage of some sort at any readable level.

I highly recommend not just getting a pleco for the sake of one. If you really want to know why, read this (http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=199476)thread
From my experience it works great.I know and have read from quite a few people as well that have used it with great results.But it does not offer any guarantees.Everyone has put their 2 cents in.Now it's up to the OP to use it or not.

When did anyone mention a pleco??

[jpappy789]

TSS is a lot like "Prime" it detoxicifies Ammonia as well as adds bacteria. You can put your test kit away. The only one that will get stressed out will be You during this process. The fish will addapt just fine. Watch out for algae growth on glass, rocks, and plants. This will be the time to get pleco if you were wanting one, you'll wonder where the algae went. I keep 1 or 2 pleco of one type or another in all of my tanks. I don't like scraping algae.
:headshake2:

[67chevelle]

Please explain how a product that adds the beneficial bacteria necessary for an aquarium cannot handle pure ammonia?

I honestly don't know why it is not recommend to use with pure ammonia,but it isn't.

[67chevelle]

:headshake2:
ROFLMAO,
Thanks!

[jpappy789]

So the bottle specifically states to NOT USE PURE AMMONIA?

[jpappy789]

ROFLMAO,
Thanks!
the smilie was directed at the info, not you...sorry.

[67chevelle]

So the bottle specifically states to NOT USE PURE AMMONIA?
It is not to be used for a fishless cycle.Only to be used when adding fish to a new tank.

[jpappy789]

But there is no difference. Ammonia is ammonia. NH3...and yep, NH3.

[67chevelle]

I am not a chemist,nor do I understand how or why TSS works.Heck,I don't even know how the bacteria I have in all my tanks got there.I have just been stating things I was told along the way,before,during,and after I used this product.It worked for me.And somewhere along the lines,I was told it is a waste of money to use it while doing a fishless cycle with ammonia.Who told me that,I don't know.I have been searching forums trying to find it.All I am doing is passing along information I heard somewhere.
It sounds unreasonable to me that you are not supposed to use it in this manner,and I have the same doubts about it not working in a fishless cycle,like you said,ammonia is ammonia,but I have never tried it in this application.But I also would not want the OP to waste his money on something,when I was told it won't work that way.
When I added it to a tank that had the cycle crash,with fish in it,it worked just like it was supposed to.

[jpappy789]

The only way it would be a waste of money is if the OP got a faulty bottle. The application, again, is going to be the same in both situations. The only difference is that in one, the ammonia source is alive.

[67chevelle]

How bout someone goes and buys some,and tries it in a fishless cycle.Then,if it doesn't work,it can either be blamed on a bad bottle,or that does not work in that manner.Out side of having a laboratory,there won't be any way of knowing.
The back of the bottle in fact does state that it is to be used with fish.So it would probably be wise to use it as directed.

[jpappy789]

Fine.

I'm not going to question this anymore. My thoughts are there and the OP can choose what to do.

[67chevelle]

Exactly.

[Dr. Awkward]

What does the Safe Start stuff smell like? I ask because I read nitrospira will go dormant if you store it in a strong solution of ammonia. Maybe the ammonia is already in the bottle?

[jpappy789]

If so, it seems rather idiotic to suggest adding this to a tank with fish in it...

[Dr. Awkward]

You could say the same thing about 90% of the products on the market.

[jpappy789]

You could say the same thing about 90% of the products on the market.
What, adding pure ammonia to the tank?

[67chevelle]

I think he meant adding things that smell,lol
TSS does not smell.

[jpappy789]

Ah...I meant a product that has pure ammonia should not be recommended to be added to tanks with fish.

[67chevelle]

Mmmk!

[jpappy789]

What does the Safe Start stuff smell like? I ask because I read nitrospira will go dormant if you store it in a strong solution of ammonia. Maybe the ammonia is already in the bottle?
on this topic: I've been told by The V that the bacteria can already survive 3-4 months without a food source around room temp.

[Dr. Awkward]

No, I meant most chemicals you get for aquariums shouldn't go in there if you have fish. And I asked about the ammonia because Tetra says this stuff lasts for 12 months at room temperature. I was trying to figure out how it survives and I thought if it went dormant that might work.

[67chevelle]

No, I meant most chemicals you get for aquariums shouldn't go in there if you have fish.
Good point.I apologize for speaking for you.My bad.

[jpappy789]

No, I meant most chemicals you get for aquariums shouldn't go in there if you have fish. And I asked about the ammonia because Tetra says this stuff lasts for 12 months at room temperature. I was trying to figure out how it survives and I thought if it went dormant that might work.
I read that...although I don't know how true that is. A possibility but I hope not.

[Dr. Awkward]

Good point.I apologize for speaking for you.My bad.

No problem. :dance:

Just my two cents, but it seems like if this product works as well as Tetra says it does all the fish people, magazines and books would be going crazy over the stuff.

[67chevelle]

It's been out for awhile,maybe all the hype has died down.Plus there really is no substitute for growing bacteria the slow,old fashion way.

[Flamfish]

you guys are hilarious, me and Tina are reading the debates here and rofling.
I'm guessing the OP is me but what exactly does it stand for? object poster? other person? I just don't know, lol.
being very new I'm not sure if I'm the best person to test this but I"m willing to try. as far as I understand it a cycled tank will stay cycled for a little while even without fish right?
what if I do tests for the next 11 days before adding fish. if the parameters change dramatically and abruptly this could mean faulty readings right? if I don't add any ammonia or fish until the readings are good I should be ok.
I was origionally planning on roughly a one month cycle anyway. this would still shorten the cycle time. if things don't look right I can always do a 50% water change and start over.

[Dr. Awkward]

If you test without an ammonia source (fish) your readings shouldn't change much. If anything I'd put the TSS in the tank then add the straight ammonia, see if the ammonia level drops down fast. If it does that stuff might just be pure awesome.

[jpappy789]

If you test without an ammonia source (fish) your readings shouldn't change much. If anything I'd put the TSS in the tank then add the straight ammonia, see if the ammonia level drops down fast. If it does that stuff might just be pure awesome.
I still think testing with pure ammonia is better. But if you use fish, monitor params.

Tetra claims to have gone beyond what Dr. Tim did with Bio-spira, although generally all of these products are the same...

[67chevelle]

you guys are hilarious, me and Tina are reading the debates here and rofling.
:rofl:
How did this thread get so long when you where gone for hours????

[Flamfish]

hehehe, I have no idea!

[MarkInNC]

I likely know less than anyone else posting here, but...

Assuming that this product does work, and you do grow a colony of the type of bacteria that you need. Then you should be able to see it work without fish by substituting amonia w/o fish. Then when you do have the bacteria you should be able to add a little amonia and see it consumed as part of the ongoing cycle.

Mark

[Flamfish]

I think thats what Jpap is saying

[OldMan47]

JPappy is right in what he was trying to say. Ammonia is ammonia and the bottle of stuff does not know the difference. If it won't process bottled ammonia, it won't process what the fish produce either. Where you end up if you don't test and make sure things are OK is you either get lucky and your fish live or you don't and your fish die. Before all these test kits became available and the concept of fishless cycling was invented, we all killed lots of fish trying to establish new tanks. With our improved knowledge, there is really no excuse for those high fish death rates any longer. Nobody here can force you to cycle the tank in a particular way but refusing to test because you are afraid the snake oil will not work is ludicrous. That is exactly what it sounds like Tetra wants you to do which is my first red flag about their product. If I had read instructions not to check how well a product is doing its job, my first reaction would have been to leave the stuff on the fish store shelf and find another way to cycle my tank.

[Flamfish]

That does sound like good advice OM. the only way I see that it would mess with the reading but not harm the fish is if they were using some type of alternative sustenance for the nitrates that doesn't harm the fish that might read as ammonia or nitrates and if that were the case that substitute itself would likely be a big selling product itself.

[jpappy789]

JPappy is right in what he was trying to say. Ammonia is ammonia and the bottle of stuff does not know the difference. If it won't process bottled ammonia, it won't process what the fish produce either. Where you end up if you don't test and make sure things are OK is you either get lucky and your fish live or you don't and your fish die. Before all these test kits became available and the concept of fishless cycling was invented, we all killed lots of fish trying to establish new tanks. With our improved knowledge, there is really no excuse for those high fish death rates any longer. Nobody here can force you to cycle the tank in a particular way but refusing to test because you are afraid the snake oil will not work is ludicrous. That is exactly what it sounds like Tetra wants you to do which is my first red flag about their product. If I had read instructions not to check how well a product is doing its job, my first reaction would have been to leave the stuff on the fish store shelf and find another way to cycle my tank.

Phew...thank you. :thm: