(Potentially stupid) Sump Question

[Wippit Guud]

So many questions, so little money to try it myself. :)

Ok, to people who use sumps, and drill instead of using overflow boxes:

What happens if the power goes off?

[morleyz]

You invest heavily in towels.

[Rob]

you dont drill the bottom of the tank and use a wet/dry filter or sump. If the tank is drilled some type canister filter is probabily being used. If there are overflow boxes or built in overflow a wet/dry is probabily being used. Canister filters dont work connected directily to overflow boxes/ some type of sump is needed. There are very few exceptions sometimes tanks have both types of filters and water pickup.....ya you drill the bottom of your tank and use a sump, well when the power goes off you will drain your tank every time!!!

[morleyz]

Not to divert the thread...but why drill a tank to connect a canister filter? Does it give you some mystery advantage besides aesthetics?

EDIT: I was assuming that we are drilling the bottom of the tank. I may not have made that clear.

[Sumpin'fishy]

It is absolutely absurd to drill the bottom of a tank without that area being surrounded by overflow baffles. The only feasible way to drill without sealed, built-in overflows is if you drill one of the sides near the top (again, acting like an overflow). I personally think even the direct syphon system is dangerous, unless you use those overflow boxes. I won't bore you with details, unless you ask.

Wippit, I'm assuming that you do know there are at least two ways of doing (safe) overfows. You mentioned the overflow box kits, but have you seen a professionally drilled tank, with overflow baffles in the corner(s)?

[Dabbler II]

I have an extra large sump because I was worried about it draining back if I lost power. I have installed a check valve in the supply line so the water will not syfone back down but even if it does my sump is large enuf to hold the water untill the syfone breaks free ( I have my outlet close to the top of the water) it should only drain out 10-15 gal if the check valve does't work and my sump will hold the extra water. I test everything out once a week to make sure it works during my weekly cleaning and water changes. I have a 30 gal sump on a 120 gal tank ( it was only $40 more than the 20 gal sump)

[Sumpin'fishy]

I see you involved with alot of DIY and such, Dabbler. That's awesome, I've heard some good ideas from you. I still think the syphon idea is a risk. Can you explain your system a little better, and I'll point out my problems with the syphon system. Do you have a check valve on the supply line to the TANK or to the SUMP? Also are both your intake to the tank and exit from the tank below the waterline? Have you drilled the bottom of your tank, sides, etc? I'll await your reply.

[Dabbler II]

I have a built in over flow reef style tank. When the pump shuts down the water just finishes overflowing and then stops. I have a check valve in the return water line. The return line is just under the water line in the tank so if the check valve fails it could only drain down through the supply line about 15 gal and my sump would accept that much water. I'll try to post a pic tonight of it to make it more clear

[Sumpin'fishy]

Ahhh, now I see. You have a classic overflow design. They are very dependable. Not a bad idea to use the check valve, but definately not necessary, as long as you have the room in your sump, which you shoud definately plan for! At first I thought you were saying that you had a check valve on your sump intake (obviously didn't make sense to me). I'm glad I didn't assume. Yes, you have an ideal overflow/sump setup, IMO.

A few people have talked about having a direct syphon via U-joint from the tank to the sump, with a pump getting the water back into the tank. This is the catastrophy waiting to happen that I was talking about. They try their best to match the water being syphoned into the sump (with a ball valve) with the water being brought back into the tank with the pump. Even if they can get this ratio CLOSE to correct. When the power fails, guess what? Syphon still works till air gets into the tube. Let's say the sump has room for all the water till the waterline is below the intake to the sump. When this happens, the water stays that level until the power comes back on again....DOH! Pump works all that water that it's holding back into the tank until it runs itself dry and breaks, melts sump, etc. Plus you get the added benefit of having the syphon NOT start back up as the water level raises, so it overflows the tank. Now you get wet carpet, shorted out electrical stuff (very dangerous), and the melted sump! Man, and you just got the ball valve working properly! :P

Hope nobody does this, to say the least.

[JamisonBWolsh]

Lets say you dont drill your tank and you want a sump. OK.
what do you think of the "poor mans sump"

Have a overflow box syphon the water from the tank to a container on the ground. Good. Place a pump in the container to pump the water from container back to tank. Your done.

Problems.

1.) What if the Syphon breaks (possible) or power goes out- The pump will pump the water into tank and OVERFLOW the tank.

SOLUTION- While the pump is on the bottom of the tank, have it setup so there is a tube only a few inches from the top of the water level in the sump, so it will only pump the water untill the water level is at the tubes starting point. This way, the pump will pump only the first few inches, then stop. the tank wont overflow if the syphon breaks for power failure.

NO DRILLING NEEDED!!! POor mans sump

[Sumpin'fishy]

Interesting idea, but I don't know the limitations of different pumps and what exactly they mean by "running dry". I'm assuming that means they need water flowing "through" them to keep them from heating up. I'm sure the water around it on the outside will definately keep the temps down quite a bit though, but I'm just not sure. Also, there are some pumps that claim they will run dry for hours. But these pumps are usually more expensive. Many factors, but it's worth trying though! Either way, I'm sure they would last until you got home from work, but may be a problem on vacations.

[JamisonBWolsh]

Yea..thats the main problem though. IF it runs dry, the pump can break. BUT at least you dont have drill a hole in a glass tank :)

There are some overflow boxes (the good ones) that will keep the syphon even if the power goes out. So, its 90 percent fool proof. Problem is that air bubbles can collect in the syphon and eventually break it. Supposedly, there is a tool to get rid of those bubbles.

[morleyz]

I would imagine that it wouldn't be too hard to fashion a float-type shutoff, sort of like a sump-pump. In case you needed a good way to shut the whole thing down if the water level got too high.

[JamisonBWolsh]

good idea...what is the floating device called and can you buy it at big als?

[Anton Wernher]

you can buy one in the plumbing section of your hardware store.

[slipknottin]

a float switch?

you can buy a couple different kinds

there not cheap though

http://www.fishsupply.com/cgi-bin/f2/common/store.cgi?dbname=f2&path=top/S/SZ/SZFUL

you could buy cheap ones from a place like www.mcmastercarr.com but they are wired for 120 volts and you DONT want 120 volts running in your tank. There are a couple wiring diagrams out there on how to step down the voltage just search for "DIY float switch"

[Sumpin'fishy]

Now we are getting some interesting DIY ideas. These sump ideas are new to me (and I've read hundreds of articles). Here's to using our heads for sumpin' besides a hat rack!!!

[slipknottin]

here are the reasons tanks overflow that ive seen.

1. siphon overflow system that allows air bubbles to accumulate in the tube. CPR and similar overflows are the most notorious.

2. not enough anti-siphon holes drilled in the return tubing. They commonly get caked over with either calcium buildup, or the little snail that sits over the hole.

3. A return pump that is too strong for the overflow system and cant be throttled back.

4. the overflow going down the sump isnt cleaned out and debris gets trapped in it.

5. the installation of the internal overflow box is done wrong... Ive seen it done wrong by the people at All-glass...

[Anton Wernher]

Why not use a simple cheap float valve or balls system instead of a float switch?

[slipknottin]

a float valve where?

on the return line into the main tank?

[Sumpin'fishy]

That would create quite a bit of back-pressure, Anton. I wonder how long a pump would operate under that condition?

[slipknottin]

it would be the same as stopping water flow into the pump...

with most mag drive pumps it means almost instant death.

some external pumps could go longer...


edit- actually if it is submersed it would take quite a while for it to get hot enough. maybe a couple hours.

[Sumpin'fishy]

I thought you were referring to a float switch that would cut the power to the pump when the water level was too high. That's the way to go! That way everything would cease. You could reset the system when you got home. It's still a drag, though.

[slipknottin]

a float switch would reset itself........

:)

[Sumpin'fishy]

My head's not screwed on strait. You must be talking about a float switch that temporarily cuts water flow to the sump (keeping the syphon) and resets as the power turns back on and water level drops.....duh! I think I'm on the same sheet of music now.

[slipknottin]

float switches can be set to either shut off power when the water level gets too high, or turn on when the water reaches a point.

If you put the float switch in the main tank, and put the return pump on it. The pump would stay on unless the water level got to high, then the switch would turn off the pump. If its just some weird thing like a snail getting something clogged, and the snail moves and water drains again, the float switch turns the pump back on.

Ive never needed to wire a float switch to the main tank, but then again ive never used siphon overflows either.

[Anton Wernher]

I was meaning using a float ball/valve and a simple controler to do the same thing the float switch does. a couple bucks spent and lowes and radio shack vs. the cost of the float switch.

[slipknottin]

the ones at mccmastercarr are only like $8 or something like that.

the additional wiring and items you need to make it run on 12 volts will add another $5-$10 depending.

[Decz]

Slip, do you personally have a sump set up and running? Any chance you could post some pic's for us?

[Wippit Guud]

Can you set a float switch to close off a pipe completely? Would solve the issue of having an open-tank sump and a bottom-tank access if the power went out

[slipknottin]

the three tanks i had sumps running on are all taken down currently, ill have a 90 with a 20 gallon sump up and going in about a month.

I had a 10 gallon sump going on my 37 gallon tank, but the 10 gallon tank broke... :rolleyes:


I dont know of any inexpensive way to close a pipe off electric signal. butterfly valves, actuated valves, etc. will all cost $200+



The best advice i can offer to anyone considering adding a sump is to buy a "Reef-Ready" tank. All-glass and Oceanic usually sell them for about $30-$50 more than the normal tanks. They come with an installed overflow box in the back corner (or corners) and have two holes drilled in the bottom.

[slipknottin]

I just got my drilled 90 gallon today.

here are some pics of the overflow.

http://pic4.picturetrail.com/VOL62/756544/1474063/17227623.jpg

http://pic4.picturetrail.com/VOL62/756544/1474063/17227618.jpg

http://pic4.picturetrail.com/VOL62/756544/1474063/17227616.jpg

[JamisonBWolsh]

But if you dont have that type of tank already setup and you dont want to drill holes, use the overflow box with that floating device mentioned earlier.