Betta cruelty

[Deniz]

I always see the poor little bettas in a cupful of water, with nothing else in them in those little containers.

How is this natural, how is this not cruelty?

[Gealcath]

They put them in little containers because thier Male, 2 Male Bettas will fight until ones dead or dying when defending their territory. Also Betta's are Anabantoids, they can breath Air using thier primitive "lungs", which is why they are often seen gulping air from the surface.

[Wippit Guud]

In the dry season, in their native lands, they actually endure those types of conditions for a few weeks, so they're used to it... it just can't be long-term.

[OrionGirl]

Minor correction. In the wild, bettas will be found in small puddles of water, but the filtration running on those puddles is the entire wetted area around the small portion holding water. Think of a bog. The whole bog area is wet, moist, but there are only a few indentations with water collected in them. But, the water actually moves throughout that entire bog, being biologically filtered as it moves. The build up of toxins in a small cup of water is well and above anything encountered in the wild.

[aquariumfishguy]

In a way, this relates to newbies who see a tank full of fish in the pet store and think they can do they same in their tank for a long term period. Bettas can withhold lots of what we would consider "cruelty" but lets not forget these fish dont stay in the little cups for long...in most cases.

[Deniz]

yeah but they sell these coloured plastic cups or containers in fancy shapes which hold 1 or 2 cups of water. People get the impression its ok to keep them in there. :shake:

[Dapple2]

Another issue with the "well they live in the puddles of oxen footprints in the wild" explaination, is that our highly domesticated long finned brightly coloured bettas bear little resemblance to thier wild cousins. They would not last long if we were to return them to the wild (and there would be possible contamination issus, etc as well).

Having said that though, the practice of keeping them in small cups is obviously not the most optimal way of keeping them, but I can understand where the petstore is coming from as well. Since the males fight, you have to seperate them, but by the same token, the store has only so much space. They are also a very popular fish, so a given store wants to have enough a supply on hand to sell each week. The little betta hex's and similar such "tanks" are just inexcusable however since they are meant to be a permanent home...

[Cooter007]

I have had one of my Bettas for over two and half years…… I have “Alpha” (That’s his name) in a 2.5 gallon tank with a airstone, small heater (25w), light and a plant. I do a 98% water change weekly! I feed him Betta Bites everyday and occasionally throw in a few blood worms.

I’m no expert but I think 2.5 years is pretty darn good. I think Bettas should never be kept in any cup, hex, etc…. I soon as I move all my fish to my new 75gallon the Betta will get a 10gallon all by his self (himself??). If you think those cups are small you should see what they are shipped in:shake:

http://web.infoave.net/~catoe2/images/bettas.jpg

[shewlett]

I think the conditions bettas are kept in at local fish stores that I have seen are barbaric and inhumane. I visited two of these stores last week and checked out the bettas. Each store had 12-15 bettas in small bowls. At one store one of them was dead and the rest looked really listless and unhappy. At the other store two were dead and the rest again looked listless and unhappy. I think it's ridiculous ... these stores are giving not the slightest concern to the health of these fish. There ought to be a legally mandated minimum bowl size these fish can be kept in at pet stores. Of course that won't help if there is no attention paid to water quality.

Orion Girl's post on native living conditions is right on the mark ... in no way do these tiny bowls replicate their native environment.

:shake:

[mrbigisbudgood]

My daughters Betta has habits that totally kill any idea that keeping a Betta in a small bowl is acceptable. He uses the WHOLE tank during the day, top to bottom, side to side. He even has a spot where he's ripped out plants in the planted part of the tank for him to sleep, ol' Jim made himself a little house. Keeping one of these interesting fish in a bowl you can eat cereal out of? Unacceptable.

[~*LuvMyKribs*~]

I went to petcetra (i never shop there, i was just in the neighbourhood), and they had about 50 bettas in those little plastic drinking cups. Not even room to turn around in. I went through and picked 4(!!!!) dead ones out and gave them to an employee to take care of. There was about 1/2 cm of mushy rotten stuff at the bottom of each cup. Then i had to buy one to save it. I would of bought them all if i had the room.
Now he's in his 2.5 filtered tank with plants and is so happy constantly swimming around, going up, down, around..... and building the biggest nest i've ever seen!!!!

[adblair]

What do bettas build nests out of?
I have a 2 g and was thinking of getting a betta and a plant for it, but I was worried the tank was too small for "long term" use, and I will have to think on the light source issue also.

[mrbigisbudgood]

Bettas are bubble nesters. The male builds a nest of bubbles.

Kribs, get ol' boy a female in a 20 gal and let em make whoppee!!!!!!!!!

[olwiggum]

My fiance and I have 4 of them in our kitchen. We have them in regular-sized fish bowls, but that's much better than the little cups at Wal-Mart. The last one we got was barely living. We also feel like we are "saving" them.


When we moved our community fish from a 10 gallon tank to the 30 gallon tank, we put one of the bettas in the 10 gallon tank to swim around for a few days. I bet he was having the time of his life.

[OrionGirl]

'Saving' fish from poor conditions just encourages the seller to buy more of them, to keep in the same awful conditions, to either be 'saved' or die.

I prefer telling the business that I will not support them with my dollar, and why.

[ash]

Hi- I'm new so if I overstep any etiquitte bondaries let me know- but I wanted to interject my two cents on Betta "rescue" I think Oriongirl is totally right on supporting the industry, however, I pick up bettas whenever I have the space. I don't like to support it, but at the same time it makes a difference to that fish. (sorry for the cornball) My betta Frank lived for three years, when I got him he was the most pitiful thing you have ever seen. I guess my point is, as awful as it is, not buying them is unlikely to change anything. It's a huge industry. If you decide to buy one, you've at least helped one.

[Grassguy]

Just so ya'll know, not all LFS's torure their bettas by keeping them in those small bowls. Now, the PetSmart here does, but the one I prfer to shop at has one male in each of their tanks that has compatible fish, which are many as we have seen here before. They do seem to have plenty of tanks for their stock as well. They must have 20-25 bettas at a time. I have seen one instance in which they didn't have room for a betta, so they put him a separter in one of their tanks to accomodate him. In addition, they don't even stock those little "Betta Bowls". They recommend a minimum of a five gal for a Betta.:)

[shewlett]

Grassguy, that is a remarkable LFS you have there in Georgia. I definitely think that is the exception rather than the rule. I agree with Orion Girl's comments about supporting the industry by rescuing bettas. This approach just won't make a dent in the problem as the industry will produce more much faster than they can be rescued. I don't know what the answer is. Pointing out to store personnel what is going on elicits responses such as "They like it like that" even though some of them are dead in their bowls and the rest have clamped fins and look miserable. Another stock response is "I've been keeping fish for xx years and I know what I'm doing." Wrong. That's why I think there should be a regulation mandating minimum bowl size in pet shops. It has just occurred to me that an email to PETA might be worthwhile.

[PumaWard]

It has just occurred to me that an email to PETA might be worthwhile.

I doubt PETA will care, their too busy going around harassing hunters, fur wearers, and similiar things. Not too mention their to busy running around with nothing but vegetables on...

A better action would to e-mail a news agency. If it ever was to make it on air, then a larger number of people would know that bettas don't like small containers and then that MIGHT impact the industry.

You have to realize that to many, many people think PETA is a joke. They won't listen to them.

[Grassguy]

I agree that calling PETA would be a bad idea. Most people, including me, think that they're liberal extreme wackos. My dad and I had some problems with several years ago while we were fishon. Two boatloads of em came and started hitting the water with cane poles. They left when a coupla Rednecks came in in a Fish'n'Ski. From what we heard at the Marina, the rednecks had been chasin em all day.

So, I don't think many paople will listen to PETA.

[shewlett]

Well, it was a thought. I did go to their web site and sent them an email about pet store bettas. It probably won't get on their radar screen but it doesn't hurt to try. What news agency would you suggest emailing?

[OrionGirl]

Just so you are aware, PETA does not think keeping ANY fish in an aquarium is acceptable. They want to completely outlaw the hobby--in addition to preventing people from having other pets, like cats and dogs.

I'm not a big fan of the premise the enemy of my enemy is my ally--PETA is too extreme to be useful.

[vaheelsfan]

I would be one of those people who would think that PETA is out of whack. I believe that they're against keeping fish in an aquarium altogether, so saying "I'm into keeping fish, but don't think bettas are treated well" would be like a hunter saying "I'm into killing a lot of deer, but hate people that poach." They won't side with you because they're already against your hobby or whatever.

[OrionGirl]

Originally posted by vaheelsfan
I'm into killing a lot of deer, but hate people that poach

Better phrasing: I'm into killing more deer than I'm licensed for, but hate people that poach.

Lots of hunters fill every tag they legally can, and still don't like poachers. ;)

[vaheelsfan]

Well, to me, being a hunter and being a poacher are two completely different things, as a hunter follows the law, and if you break the law you're not a hunter, but a poacher. But PETA probably doesn't see it that way, and I'm fairly sure they don't want for anyone else to, either.

[OrionGirl]

Ah, I didn't catch that the statement was being directed to PETA. Now it makes sense. Forgive me--I'm a little slow this morning.

[shewlett]

Okay, since I have aquariums I guess emailing PETA wasn't the brightest idea I've ever had. Does anyone have any suggestions on shining the publicity spotlight on the pet store bettas' plight? I personally can't think of any practical ones. If I emailed my congressman / senator I am sure they would never see it and no doubt some staffer would have a good laugh.

[vaheelsfan]

Here's an idea:Find out if there is an aquarium club or something in your community. If there is, get in touch with them and see if there are any people who share your ideas. If there are, make up a little brochure or something about why it's wrong to treat bettas this way and present it to your pet store/stores with the signatures of everyone who supports your ideas. Ask for them to post this wherever they have their bettas, and then request they they find more humane housing for them while they are property of the store. If they refuse, inform them that you and everyone else on the petition will boycott the store and will not recomend them to anyone. Then, take the petition to a local newspaper and present it to them and see if they will post it in the editorial section. You could also present a copy of it to your representative on the city council/board of supervisors/whatever, and see if they will take some action. If you can get the owners of the pet store to believe they are going to lose customers, and therefore lose money, then you will have a good shot at achieving some type of reform in their betta keeping.

[Rhys]

Yeah i totally agree. But i think the pet stores do it is because the fish can ""survive"" in that much water but what they haven't seen is that the people who have a betta in a 125 gallon tank is that the betta uses most of the tank. they are very active.

[Brambler]

The good place near me doesn't stock those betta bowls either, as with Grassguy's place, they have 1 male per tank mixed in with other compatibale fish, usually about 10-20 in the store at any given time. On top of this they went so far as having signs in area where they keep the bettas warning against trying to keep them in tiny containers.

[Grassguy]

The other part of Betta cruelty that I hate is the new (well 2yrs old now) "War and Peace" plants. People take a glass vase, put some marbles in the bottom, then a small pot with marbles in it that sits in the neck witha peace lilly in it. They then put a Betta (actually advertised as a siamese fighting fish) in the vase. The lilly's roots grow through the bottom of the pot providing the betta with "all the food it will need". As I see it, the only difference between the vase and the bowl is that the vase is slightly larger.

I had a friend that did this and I "guilted" her into buying a five gal for Charlie. I also told her that he needs more than plant roots to thrive, so she got some Betta Bites as well.

[Brambler]

Yeah, the guy in the cubicle next to me at work has one of those. At least he feeds his, but hes bad about changing the water and stuff. Been trying to convince him to put him in a regular tank, hopefully he'll get off his butt and do it at some point. :rolleyes:

[Grassguy]

:idea2: I've got an idea. When he leaves his cubicle, start putting little pieces of trash in it. When he finally has had enough and says something about it, you can tell him you didn't think he would mind, after all, that's how he's treating his fish. You know, golden rule and all that.:idea2:

[shewlett]

If he has room on his desk you should ask the guy in the next cubicle to consider tossing the vase and putting in a 2 1/2 gallon aquarium. The traditional rectangular kind are pretty cheap at the LFS. Tell him to take the vase home and put flowers in it. Also, I like the idea of leaving trash in his cubicle.

[Grassguy]

The little eclipse 2 bowfronts are cheap too, and they come with the filters and hood.

[Brambler]

Yeah, I'm not shy about it, I tell him almost daily that it looks like crap and is horrible for the fish. I've ended up changing the water in it myself a few times when he's not in (which is often) just because he's so darn lazy about it. He claims he has a small hex tank with a filter kicking around his house that he'll bring in for it, but I don't see this happening anytime soon.

Really you'd have to know this guy to understand, the term flake doesn't even begin to describe him. Gotta love some of the people that somehow hang on to state jobs. :sick:

[Celura]

Originally posted by Grassguy
:idea2: I've got an idea. When he leaves his cubicle, start putting little pieces of trash in it. When he finally has had enough and says something about it, you can tell him you didn't think he would mind, after all, that's how he's treating his fish. You know, golden rule and all that.:idea2:

That's AWESOME!!! I would definitely do that. :D :joke:

[aquaguy1331]

This is true. I felt really bad about those fish being kept in such horible condidtions. i went on the internet and got a few sientific papers and read them. i went to my LFS and told the dealer about my research. he considered my results. i built him beariers out of acrilic to divide an 80 gallon set-up in his front window and on a saturday afternoon we transfered all the betas into there own little section. they are doing fabulasly and they encouraged people to want to buy them becuase there so active and beutiful in there new set up. by the next shipment he's sold out usualy

[Neo Sithlord]

Well all I can say is that I got into this hobby because of a Betta I bought at Wal Mart. I had him in a 2-3 cup of water bowl and thought it was ok and he'd be healthy I moved up to a 10 gallon but it was to late and I knew to little... Now I hate the fact that most people think that's ok. I know a hell of alot more now then I did back then thankfully . I have one now and I built a 29 gallon tank arround him. He does use all the space he has and as such I'm REALLY happy to have spent the time, effort and cash to have a setup like I do. Thing thing is I was taught that this was best for him and I learned that because "I" did my research!

As far as PETA goes they're extreamist misguided fools in my opinion. I understand their cause and at one point I actually agreed with them, but let's be honest they really don't know what their they're doing. Here are afew examples I've read over the years about PETA groups and their activities. One group released a large group of minks from a farm... Most got killed on local roads and the ones that servived reaked havok on the local ecosystem (introduced species). I've read of many groups releasing cattle from their pens to only have them return to the barns at night after blocking roads and causing general grief over the day. Personally I had respect for PETA as a well meaning group untill afew idiots backed by PETA's BS came after me personally. See I'm a manager at a fast food joint. Well one night I had a customer complain about some pictures taped to the menu board in my drive thru. So I went out and found afew pictures of dismembered cow heads and such with the PETA logo on them. Of course I took them down and went about my buisness not thinking much of it after making ammends with the customer. Two days later it happened again, so as before I took them down and passed a fax to my DM about it. The next week two people came in and got in my face about how slaughter houses kill their cows, they caused a big scene, put me on the spot and blamed me in whole for the mistreatment of said bovines. I had to call the cops to get them out of my resturaunt which I'm sure was just fine with them. At that point I wrote PETA off as a bunch of single minded idiots following an extreamist idiology. Harsh words I know but I take PETA with a grain of salt now days. Force won't change a bad system., but teaching people what's wrong with said system will PETA doesn't do that. Really what was I supposed to do? Quit my job? Fire all my employees? Become a vegitarian even though we evolved to be omnivores? Honestly coming after a fast food manager in Wisconsin proved nothing and gained nothing. It never hit the news it didn't gain PETA anything. Well that's about it. If you want to do something about how bettas are kept and how people think they can be kept. Teach them! Teach people what conditions are best for a betta! Don't go on recue missions and buy a fish ANY fish from a store that you think isn't keeping their fish correctly. Hell I'd never go any where BUT the Humane Society for a cat or a dog even though they put alot of pets to sleep because they can't find a home for them. They do it because in some cases they have no choice in others they just can't adopt out the animals, Yet they have many programs that support responsible ownership of pets and many more that take animals out of abbusive homes. Sorry I'm ranting here but in basically I'm saying little steps change a large system not big radical movements.
Rant mode off...
-Neo Sithlord

[LongTime]

When it comes to bettas you have the whole abusive industry to contend with. There was an article in FAMA (June 2004) where the writer visited a betta farm in, I think, Thailand. I hope you don't think each of the fry, once they are sexed, gets a nice 10 g aquarium.
The bottles in the picture, the author guesses about 100,000 are "flat sided pint sized whiskey bottles." Each holds 1 betta and they make up the floor of the tent.
When the water is changed "The operator could quickly load about twenty bottles into the rack. The rack was then closed with the wire mesh cover..The entire rack of bottles was then inverted and the water spilled on the ground. The mesh allowed the water to drain without the fish falling out. The rack was then turned upright, the lid opened and the bottles returned to their place in the floor. The bottles with fish inside were then re-filled by means of a plastic hose. Since Bettas can breath air for a brief period, several racks of bottles could be dumped before filling had to commence. I had seen similar practices before and I imagine they could dump several racks before they needed to start refilling them."

[kikuchiyo]

The East Asian fish industry is cruel; things like that, like juicing, painting, and the hybrids discussed on another thread orginate there. It's hard to fault the menial workers; they're dirt poor, poorly educated folk. They are doing menial farm work that requires little education. But so many of the industry's bad practices originate there (not that they are not continued or perputated in the West either).

Reading that stuff, I'm surprised the little things survive at any rate, especially enough to sell. Not to mention the poorly reported juicing of fish like dwarf gouramis with male hormones. And the person most affected by it (other than the poor fish themselves) are of course the consumers who have no idea this is going on.

Even more frightening is that this is capitalist farming run amok; we see the consequences to the fish if we poke our heads in. Think about what is done to food industry farm animals (or look up whats done to chickens, for example or the hormones food mammals are injected with). I'm not a vegetarian but the very thought that such practices edges me closer.

I honestly wish there was someway that we could limit our dependence on unethical SE Asian breeders, but there are very few places in the world where those fish are developed on that scale (certainly not in the more affluent Far East).

[TYPO]

hmn, time fer my opinion. my 2 females share a 18 with other community fish, while my 2 males share a divided 10g. each of them has 2 female guppies and a snail to keep thhem company. my white double-tail is very content in a .5g bowfronty-plasticy thing i have. she was in the 18g, but wasnt happy at all. i put her in the .5 and she's happier than ever.

also, on that note, i believe a 2.5 is the minimum size for a betta. it's enough room for them to swim, but, it's small enough that you can have many in a large room.

bettas are poorly marketed. i still remember when i was a little kid, asking why they lived in the little cups, and the store people always answered, 'beacause they like it.'

it makes me sad to see the bettas, when they have about an inch of water, and they are still blowing themselves a nest. :eek: it's like, they're saying, 'HEY!! you cant kill my spirit. see??'

[Watcher74]

Those Bettas at one of the LFS here will turn your stomach. I saw the other day a 1 gallon tank divided into three areas with plexiglass. The middle section had filtration running on it(lucky betta) with no way for the water to circulate to the other two sections.

The betta in the right side, or rather the body, was laying on the gravel and had been dead so long it had a haze of rot around it. I wondered how many days it had been dead.