is this ick or just a random ich

[prerunnedyota]

everyonce in a while i will see one of my fish rub againts a rock like they have ich but the will only do it once and i wont see em do it again maybe a few days later ill see another one do it are they just ichy or do the got the ich.:confused:

[SayersWeb]

This is called "flashing" and is very common with African cichlids, although any fish will do it.

This can be caused by water conditions... ammonia, nitrate, PH. Have you done a water change recently?

Also could be some parasite like Ich or flukes.

Test your water. You may want to treat with something like Aquari-Sol just to be safe. It's my magic "cure-all" and I use it at each water change.

[prerunnedyota]

ok ill do a test tonight thnx for the help

[ScottoMacD]

Originally posted by SayersWeb
Test your water. You may want to treat with something like Aquari-Sol just to be safe. It's my magic "cure-all" and I use it at each water change.

Adding Aquarisol to every water changes isn't a good idea.

You should be very careful about adding any copper based med to your tank when not treating for ich.

The reason being is that eventually the ich will become resistant to the copper and if you do have an outbreak you will not be able to use any copper based meds to cure it. Thus defeating the who purpose of you using it in the first place.

[SayersWeb]

I've got a call into the Aquarisol manufacturer about the copper treatment. I'll be interested to hear what they say.... Thanks for the info.

[RTR]

Agree strongly on the copper. I would never use it my tanks for any reason.

BTW, "Ick" is a comment, "itch" is an irritation that want scratching, "Ich" is an abbreviation for Ichthyophthitius, the causative protozoan parasite - and you can see why it needs an abbreviation...;)

[SayersWeb]

Originally posted by RTR
Agree strongly on the copper. I would never use it my tanks for any reason Why such a strong stance on this?

[ScottoMacD]

Originally posted by SayersWeb
Why such a strong stance on this?

I know that this was meant for Robert but here's my 2 cents.
Robert please correct any mistakes.

Copper tends to become more of an annoyance that anything.
One it is quite hard to remove after it is used. It does not agree and can do more damage than good with allot more fish than it helps. (inverts, tetras, scaleless fish)

It tends to give a false sense of security when in fact most parasites will become immune to it after being in it for an amount of time. Which renders it usless after a while. So while ich is always present in your tank. Since you are placing copper in that tank on a regular basis. The ich is becoming immune to it.

Now assume if you have an ich out break. The copper will not do a thing that it is suppose to do. But you think that you have nothing to worry about because you have your tank treated. Unfortunetly before you know it you have fish deaths from ich and don't know why?
Speaking figureativly of course. You now know.. :)

There are so many better products on the market now a days that are better and just all round do a more complete job.

Even better is to cure ich the old fashion way with salt and increased tank temperature.

Hope this helps. :)

[prerunnedyota]

I just tested my water and the results were
ammonia-0ppm
nitrite-oppm
ph-7.5
and my nitrate was around 40-60ppm

[RTR]

Scott has the concept. Once copper is used, it is there, period. Not in thewater column, but in and on the gravel and anything porous in the tank. If you ever want to have plants or any inverts (my tank generally have both), you will need to replace all gravel/substrate, and media, etc. Why bother? It is so much easier to just never use copper, and actually far more effective techniques are around. Modern "water conditioners" kill the effectiveness of copper anyway, and their residual life is unknown - overall it is an out of date and very iffy techique IMHO.

Edit: 40-60ppm nitrate is pretty high. I'd try to cut that at least in half.

[SayersWeb]

I have plants in my 20 gallon, strange that they are ok. I thought the bottle says "safe for plants" on it, but I am not at home now to check.

So, what would you recommend as a replacement for aquarisol? I use it as a preventitive and have never had an ich (knock on wood) outbreak in over 15 years. Maybe I don't need a preventitive? It just seems to have worked so well over the years for me.

I'm searching around and it appears that "Analine Green" (Maracide) is one of the better choices. It is safe supposedly safe for scaleless fish and easier on plants and invertibrates than copper.

With the growing number of tanks, I will need something economical. Also, I am much more likely to introduce new fish these days with so many tanks, so I'm sure the chance of outbreaks is much greater. I'm planning to have 4 10 gallon tanks available for fry and quarantine purposes, so that should help.

Thanks!

[RTR]

I use salt and heat in QT. It works for me. I not only have multiple tanks, ten of them are on a single system - infectious disease introduction would be a disaster.

[prerunnedyota]

Is there anythign you guys would recomend to cut down on my nitrate levels

[SayersWeb]

Originally posted by prerunnedyota
Is there anythign you guys would recomend to cut down on my nitrate levels
Try these -
http://saltaquarium.about.com/cs/nitratecontrol/l/aa091901.htm
http://www.waterzoo.co.uk/Fact%20sheets/Controlling%20nitrate.htm

[RTR]

The first reference Sayer gave is good basic information and valuable as such.

The second cited ref requires a bit of comment IMHO. Nitrate at the levels you have are unlikely to broadly toxic on its own. But as an indicator of general pollution, nitrate titer shows us easily how much garbage has built up in our water. We cannot easily if at all measure DOC (dissolved organic compounds or dissolved organic carbon) or inorganic mineral residues other than calcium and magnesium (by GH) or carbonates/bicarbonates (by KH). So, we use nitrate as a default indicator. If the chenmical or biological processes used in the second cited ref are emloyed to remove nitrate, can anyone verify that they rest of the garbage has been removed? Nope. Water changes are still the best and most certain technique (dilution works on everything in solution equally),with veggie filters (plants whether in the tank, refugium, or sump) the next best. Chemical nitrate extractors only remove your most convenient pollution indicator.

HTH

[SayersWeb]

Both sites recommend water changes first and foremost..... That was the point I was trying to make by posting them. Also, the 2nd site shows how involved other solutions may be. So, other options are available, but will greatly complicate things.

[RTR]

Sayer - that was not aimed at you, but at the common misconception that if you have reduced/absorbed/removed nitrates, then your water must be perfect and need no partials. All a hold-over from the fad of magic nitrate reducers and therefore your water never needs changing so popular a few years back. Your refs were good, and i should have said that more plainly - I just hate for folks to grab onto one technique (such as nitrate reduction) and think it is a cure-all.

After all, my planted tanks, which have low or even require added nitrate, get larger changes than my FO tanks...