PMDD question

[Phyroath]

Hi Everyone,

I have been using PMDD premix for a while now. I understand that there is no phosphate with premix so I order additional compounds - Barr GH booster, Phosphate and Plantex.

Kindly help how do I dose phosphate, dry or in liquid form?

[msjinkzd]

KH2PO4 or Mono Potassium Phosphate is used for dosing phosphates or PO4.
http://www.rexgrigg.com/dosing.htm

[Phyroath]

Thanks MSJinkzd. I want to make liquid solution and dose in addition to PMDD premix. The Chuck's calculator suggests 1 ppm. Should I add it to PMDD premix to get a completed mix stock solution?

[fishorama]

Phosphate is often dosed on a different day I think it interferes with iron. Causes it to precipitate out AFAIR, not sure

[Riiz]

Thanks MSJinkzd. I want to make liquid solution and dose in addition to PMDD premix. The Chuck's calculator suggests 1 ppm. Should I add it to PMDD premix to get a completed mix stock solution?


DO NOT add Phosphate to a PMDD solution, the phosphate and Iron will precipitate out of solution and become unavailable to the plants.

But they can be dosed on the same day, just wait a couple of hours after dosing PMDD.

[Phyroath]

Sorry for late reply. I would mix 3/4 teaspoon of phosphate with 1l distilled H2O however I am not sure how much should I dose. Per the label from aquarium fertilizer, the above result will be a solution of 0.3% P2SO4.

[timwag2001]

that depends on the size of your tank.
and did you mean kh2po4

[Phyroath]

Sorry a typo. I have found the receipt by Tom Barr I noted down below.

A way to make 1.0, 2.0, 3.0, 4.0 and 5.0 ppm PO4 reference solutions:



Add 1.433 g of KH2PO4 to 1 L DI/RO water. This makes a 1000 ppm PO4 solution. (It's really a 1000.09 ppm solution.)




Add 1 mL of the 1000 ppm solution to 9 mL of DI/RO water. This makes 10 mL of a 100 ppm PO4 solution.




Add 2 mL of the 100 ppm solution to 18 mL of DI/RO water. This makes 20 mL of a 10 ppm PO4 solution.




To make a 1.0 ppm PO4 solution:
Add 1 mL of the 10 ppm solution to 9 mL of DI/RO water. This makes 10 mL of a 1.0 ppm PO4 solution.




To make a 2.0 ppm PO4 solution:
Add 2 mL of the 10 ppm solution to 8 mL of DI/RO water. This makes 10 mL of a 2.0 ppm PO4 solution.




To make a 3.0 ppm PO4 solution:
Add 3 mL of the 10 ppm solution to 7 mL of DI/RO water. This makes 10 mL of a 3.0 ppm PO4 solution.




To make a 4.0 ppm PO4 solution:

[coach_z]

Reference solution (that you mentioned above) is a solution that is to be used to calibrate a test kit. this is not what you want to be using to make kh2po4 stock.

use this websites dosing calculator to help you make your stock.
http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_plant_dosage_calc.htm (http://www.csd.net/%7Ecgadd/aqua/art_plant_dosage_calc.htm)

Also, do you have a PO4 (phosphate) test kit? do you need to be adding additional phosphate? be careful when dosing phosphate because it can lead to algae if you have too muhc of it in there.

have a good day.

[plantbrain]

Reference solution (that you mentioned above) is a solution that is to be used to calibrate a test kit. this is not what you want to be using to make kh2po4 stock.

use this websites dosing calculator to help you make your stock.
http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_plant_dosage_calc.htm (http://www.csd.net/%7Ecgadd/aqua/art_plant_dosage_calc.htm)

Also, do you have a PO4 (phosphate) test kit? do you need to be adding additional phosphate? be careful when dosing phosphate because it can lead to algae if you have too muhc of it in there.

have a good day.

Really, and how much is that?
How careful, should I be?
I know plenty that are not careful, they had no issues, I didn't either.

This aquarium, which is in my home is dosed 5.53ppm 3x a week of KH2PO4, with sierra snow melt tap water, which is pretty much free of P and N, low KH, GH etc, like RO pretty much.

I dose 1 teaspoon to a 180gal tank 3x a week.
Has 2w/gal of light, excellent CO2 and current.
Weekly 60% water changes.

So that + large water changes and frequent rich dosing gives me a very stable high level of PO4, yet I trim and prune often, no algae etc.

http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u312/plantbrain/redpan2.jpg

I also use ADA AS which is fairly rich in P in the sediment as well.

In otherwords, how can this possibly be true in and of itself when I test it, as well as many others, and we do not get any algae? You cannot explain why I and others lack algae with this hypothesis, therefore it must be rejected. The hypothesis that excess PO4 causes algae has to be rejected as a direct cause for algae.

Some like to have it both ways, claiming it can encourage algae but with the right balance(whatever that means/is etc), this too also fails. The "right balance" is really another reason for algae, not the PO4 directly.

It says the same thing and even suggest alternative cause(right balance, not PO4). Why not just come out with it and say it's not PO4, and something else instead? It cannot be directly PO4. I know of no excess level that causes any negative effects, so above a non limiting levels has no adverse effects, so it's really more an issue of waste and simply not needed, no fear required.

I dose PO4 dry, as my tanks are 60 Gal and up.
I dose a lot more than Chuck's cal which is over 10 years old these days and needs some updating on suggestions.

If you have 20 Gal or more, dry dosign is fine, if you like messy liquids, that's fine too, just have a trace mix and then a macro mix.

Main thing is to simply dose consistently and keep up on the gardening.
So if a daily liquid works, better, do that, if dry powders work better, do that.

It's not the method so much, it's you and human habits/lack of them that is the real issue. Sediment ferts adds a good back up also in you do forget or leave for a week vacation etc.






Regards,
Tom Barr

[coach_z]

Tom - from what i have heard/read/etc, recommended PO4 levels are between .5 and 1 ppm, do you consider that statement true? Do you suggest a different ppm range?

If so, what are the benefits and consequences to having PO4 outside of the .5-1 range (or, outside your recommended range)??

-chris

[Riiz]

Tom - from what i have heard/read/etc, recommended PO4 levels are between .5 and 1 ppm, do you consider that statement true? Do you suggest a different ppm range?

If so, what are the benefits and consequences to having PO4 outside of the .5-1 range (or, outside your recommended range)??

-chris

I cant speak for Tom Barr or anyone else, but I keep my levels of Phosphate at 2.0ppm+ (I test NO3 and PO4 weekly), and have no algae issues except for the occasional GDA on the front glass that might need to be removed once or twice a month at the most.

I've learned first hand that trying to control algae through nutrients hinders plant growth. Basically my Anubias start to get covered with GSA, if I go too liberal with the KH2PO4.

[timwag2001]

I cant speak for Tom Barr or anyone else, but I keep my levels of Phosphate at 2.0ppm+ (I test NO3 and PO4 weekly), and have no algae issues except for the occasional GDA on the front glass that might need to be removed once or twice a month at the most.

I've learned first hand that trying to control algae through nutrients hinders plant growth. Basically my Anubias start to get covered with GSA, if I go too liberal with the KH2PO4.

really? i have the opposite effect. if i dose P under 2ppm i get gsa. over 2ppm i'm fine

[Phyroath]

I am still unsure how much I should dose PO4 solution to my 65G. I mixed 3 teaspoons with 500 ml distilled water (1 1/2 tsp to 250ml). To start with, I dosed 6 ml of the solution on Sunday and on the same day 1 tsp of Barr GH booster. Daily, I dose 1 drop/G of PMDD premix. Am I doing right? Let say i am going to dose 6ml x 3 a week routinely.

How about people using fleet enema to add PO4? Is it the same concentration?

To my note, my Sessiliflora reaches the top (about 3 inches) in just 2 days. Although I dose liquid, but I do 50% w/c every week. I don't have PO4 test kit what I have is JBJ 5 in 1 test kit for NO2/ NO3 (mg/l).

[Riiz]

really? i have the opposite effect. if i dose P under 2ppm i get gsa. over 2ppm i'm fine

Thats what I meant, I used the wrong word, lol.

[coach_z]

I am still unsure how much I should dose PO4 solution to my 65G. I mixed 3 teaspoons with 500 ml distilled water (1 1/2 tsp to 250ml). To start with, I dosed 6 ml of the solution on Sunday and on the same day 1 tsp of Barr GH booster. Daily, I dose 1 drop/G of PMDD premix. Am I doing right? Let say i am going to dose 6ml x 3 a week routinely.

How about people using fleet enema to add PO4? Is it the same concentration?

To my note, my Sessiliflora reaches the top (about 3 inches) in just 2 days. Although I dose liquid, but I do 50% w/c every week. I don't have PO4 test kit what I have is JBJ 5 in 1 test kit for NO2/ NO3 (mg/l).

Phyroah, sorry if my comments have derailed your thread a little bit but i think we might have all learned a lot.

If i were you i would start dosing your mix to get ~2ppm phosphate in your tank. I am going to start doing the same. I dont know how to suggest dosing without a test kit though to verify your results because the phosphate you are adding to your tank might not be the only source of phosphates in your tank.

i am going to use my phosphate test kit to get me to this new amount of phosphate in my tank

[Canuck]

This thread has probably moved off topic, but I think its a worthwhile discussion. So...

I'm far from an expert but I have been kicking around for awhile and I believe I understand the premise of the EI (previously known as Dose and Dump). How it is applied by many on this board is not consistent with the original philosophy of the method. (I'm not saying anyones wrong.) EI's central premise is that you cannot overfertilize your tank (unless your poisoning your fish). The balance component was only originally intended to reduce costs of over-fertilizing. Based on some analysis if a planted tank needed 10 ppm of NO3 then it also needed 1 ppm of PO4 and 20 ppm of K because this was supposed to be an approximation of how plants consumed nutrients. It had nothing to do with controlling algae. If you believe EI then you would be just as well off dosing 20-20-20. (Except you would be flushing nutrients down the toilet for no reason). Another major component of EI is you really don't need a test kit. Dose the 10-1-20 every week, (once a week, twice a week whatever makes you happy). Do a 50% water change at the end of the week and redose. If nothing is consumed the most that can accumulate is 20-2-40 (plus what your tank produces). If plants do well then reduce nutrients slightly. Continue reducing nutrients until the point where you run into plant growth problems, then increase slightly. If algae becomes a problem or plant growth stalls INCREASE nutrients. This is predicated on appropriate levels of CO2 and light.

The dosing and water changes make the system self regulating (I believe the term is an infinite geometric series). Test kits aren't necessary at all.

In 15 years I've never seen Tom suggest to anyone they should reduce a nutrient.

Hope this didn't sound preachy, just trying to explain my understanding of the system.

[plantbrain]

This thread has probably moved off topic, but I think its a worthwhile discussion. So...

I'm far from an expert but I have been kicking around for awhile and I believe I understand the premise of the EI (previously known as Dose and Dump).


More accurately it is a non limiting method to add fertilizers, eg Hoalgland's solution. Hoagland's is too rich really and has NH4, so it was cut to 1/5th and then the Nh4 was removed. This about what Paul K suggested back in the 1960's. It's also about the same target levels I suggest for EI.

The concept is nothing new, nor the target levels.
The prevailing myths and methods suggested in the hobby where/are the issue/s.

EI is about 95% PMDD, just adds more and adds PO4.
PMDD also suggests about 25% water change weekly etc, and has the same infinites series equation at the bottom on the link on the Krib.

Just add a bit more, and then you can do away with the test kits altogether.

That(no test kits idea) was not very welcomed and is still not by many aquarist even today. So they try everything to rationalize why test kits for nutrients are so so important, sort of losing battle as few want to do any real research and the rest of the folks really do not want to test if they can avoid it and often just stop after awhile anyhow, human habits need factored in.

We do not like to test.
I don't, but I will if I can answer a question I might have. Not for a matter of habit and for monitoring forever on........that's not a method, that's torture and a waste. I can automate a water change fairly easily, cannot do that for test kits.

Again, none of these are my ideas, they are basic human nature and things ALL AQUARIST know and think about, discuss etc.



How it is applied by many on this board is not consistent with the original philosophy of the method. (I'm not saying anyones wrong.) EI's central premise is that you cannot overfertilize your tank (unless your poisoning your fish). The balance component was only originally intended to reduce costs of over-fertilizing.


Yes, and a simple function of waste, there's no need to lard it on,
start high at a known non limiting levels, then reduce it step wise, observing plants, and making sure you have excellent CO2.




Based on some analysis if a planted tank needed 10 ppm of NO3 then it also needed 1 ppm of PO4 and 20 ppm of K because this was supposed to be an approximation of how plants consumed nutrients.


Yep. I'd say more about 20ppm NO3, 2-3ppm of PO4, 20-25 ppm K+.
Traces are weird, there's evdence as high as 6-8ppm of Fe does well and increases growth rates in some species, I think .5-.7ppm is likely the max ranges for us.



In 15 years I've never seen Tom suggest to anyone they should reduce a nutrient.

Hope this didn't sound preachy, just trying to explain my understanding of the system.

You did quite well :thm:

haha

As someone who does agriculture, it's rare that we have issues with excess nutrients, perhaps one is so high we do not need to add it. Most of the issues folks have are with algae, fear and web myths.

Sometimes weird plant growth at the tips(classic CO2 issue).

But by and large, folks do not focus very well on growing plants and taking care of their needs. Likewise, those that claim to know beans about algae are generally way off base, because, like the plants, they have not focused specifically on growing algae.

If you want to learn about algae, you need to learn how to grow and culture it. If your focus is plants, then focus there.

Folks often cross these two together and make it much more compilcated and harder to tease the issues apart and have confounding factors they can never hope to isolate. Then they complain the advice they got was wrong, then run from one to the next till someone says something they want to hear.

You do not get far that way.

You understand and learn much mor eisolating the issue down.
EI is ajust a simple tool that does this only..........for nutrients.

It does not do this for light or CO2, which are much much larger factors and really poorly understood by hobbyists. CO2 particularly......it's much more complicated than most assume. Light, few bother to test this curiously, even though it is where all plant and algae growth starts.

Most get high light and avoid CO2 like the plague, a perfect recipe for algae.

And so it goes, more experienced folks need to back off the high light advice, stick with low light and good VERY careful CO2 and focus on current, CO2 losses, evaporation changes that affect current, CO2 loss etc, high flow thur rates with CO2 diffusion equipment etc, good horticulture etc.

CO2 kills more fish than any other thing in the planted hobby and causes the 95% of all algae issues.

I've never heard of a single documented case of fish death due to any fertilizer.

So........I generally suggest CO2 focus.

It provides the most gain for your efforts.

Regards,
Tom Barr

[Canuck]

Thanks. Read this stuff for 10 or 15 years, somethings bound to stick Tom :read:

[plantbrain]

Hehe, some folks, you'd be surprised:)
Nothing sticks except myths, hogwash and goofy marketing horse manure.

That's really all this is, add PO4 and see what happens. Don't add it and see what happens. Any farmer or aquarist can do this. It's common sense stuff.


Regards,
Tom Barr

[jpappy789]

Wow. Information up the wahzoo here :lipssealedsmilie:

[Phyroath]

Thanks everyone. My first mistake was that I only bought PMDD premix and later I realized I missed buying something for extra. I actually read and learn a lot from this forum but when it comes to mixing and dosing, I getting confused. So asking advance people like you is a better way not to repeat the mistake - you all live.

[Canuck]

Thats a pretty minor mistake. I once thought I needed to buy a phosphate absorbing resin. As far as helping my plants grow, and reducing algae, it would have been just as effective to flush my money down the toilet.