What changes should I make??

[travelinman1969]

I posted a forum on an arowana getting hole in the head a few days ago. I'm still not sure if he's got it but my oscars have it starting. A little history on my tank. It is a 150 gallon that was overcrowded until about a week ago. I got rid of two 9 inch oscars and a 6 inch bala, mainly because of all the fighting, but also to lower the population. I now have a 23 inch arowana, two 6 inch albino tiger oscars, a 6 inch bala, a 14 inch pleco and a 17 inch pleco. The nitrates have been above 100 ppm for over a month, no matter how much water I change. I can't use local water, way too hard, I have to use drinking water from Wal-Mart, so it's starting to get a bit expensive and a heck of a job toting 30-40 cases of water a week. I have two Fluval 404's, a TetraTec PF500 with integrated heating, and an undergravel filter. ewok (member here) gave me some sites to look up and I checked out a few others and I'm confused over the different approachs that some of them say, so hopin y'all can help me out here.

There are 2 things that really seem to stick out between all the sites. The nitrates being too high and the 2 oscars I have now getting their butts kicked for 2 weeks before the other 2 oscars went. Maybe it a combo of both. But there were some other things too, which confused me. They say to get rid of the undergravel and use about a quarter inch of gravel. Gonna be a bit hard to have plants, which I'm told helps the nitrate issue, with that little bit of gravel. I curretly have about 1 inch of gravel. Could the nitrate issue be from the UG? Do I have too much gravel in there? I have removed the carbon already because I'm told that poor quality carbon can cause HITH also. It's been out for 3 days with no change.

I'm doing a 50 percent water change tomorrow and would like some feedback on what changes I should make. If the UG is coming out, I'm doing it tomorrow before I pull the water, so I can make sure to get any extra waste out of the gravel.

[carpguy]

The Nitrate issue could definitely be related to the UG.

I'd check out this article (http://www.aaquaria.com/aquasource/rtrrfug.shtml) by RTR. He's one of the most knowledgeable folks your going to find floating around out here. If you want to keep the UG filter, I'd definitely switch it to reverse flow. Personally, I think I'd get a good canister on there but be careful not to spark a minicycle by yanking that old established filter out of there too fast.

(Same site has this article on HITH (http://www.aaquaria.com/aquasource/hith.shtml) ).

Plants don't really mix that well with UG filters and they do need a bit of substrate in there to do their thing. They definitely do a job on nitrates, to the point where many (high light) plantkeepers need to dose nitrates. The only problem is that I don't think plants mix especially well with Oscars.

Oscars mix plants well? Something like that…

[travelinman1969]

The oscars don't mess with the plants, so that's not a problem. I already have 2 canisters and a HOB. I'm pumpin about 1000 gph between the 3 of em, so takin the UG out shouldn't hurt, but I've always liked it cause it keeps the gravel cleaner, i think. The oscars and plecos are pretty messy.

[SayersWeb]

I think I replied to your first post....

IMHO..... get rid of the UG! I think 1" of gravel is fine, just do your cleaning every few weeks. Move the large rocks and other decorations and be sure to vacuum under them.

Keep your filters clean.... especially if you have canister or wet/dry models. It's easy to let them go for too long.

[travelinman1969]

I always move everything when I vacuum. I do it everytime I do a water change. Is the UG creating the nitrates? Can I just take it out and vacuum or should is there a certain procedure. I clean the canisters about once every 3 weeks.

[SayersWeb]

Nitrates are the result of the biological cycle in your tank. If they are high then you have too much food/waste being processed. Lightening the fish load that you did will help. Also, are you overfeeding? Any uneaten food and excess fish waste gets drawn down into the UG and gets broken down there.

If you are truly cleaning the canisters every three weeks then you may have a new problem once you pull out the UG. Especially if you are overfeeding. The UG is your only bio filter at this point since the canisters never have a chance to establish themselves before they get cleaned and have to start again.

You may want to augment the canister filters with a HOB bio-wheel filter. The bio-wheel never gets cleaned, so it stays effective even when you clean the canisters.

[carpguy]

The problem is decomposing waste. Any of your fish probably have more mass than all of my fish, so I'm kind of out of my element with this stuff.

The problem with the UGs is that they're pulling all that stuff into the substrate while the cans collect it and make it easy to remove from the system. As long as the stuff stays in the loop its turning into nitrates. By reversing the flow you'll get the same substrate-as-biofilter effect but the debris will get blown up into the current where the other filters can grab it. You still need to finish the export. As often as it takes.

If you can keep plants they'll definitely do a job on nitrates. They aren't really a no fuss solution. They have their own requirements.

There are some not-in-the-tank options where you can do something like setting up an HOB as a hydroponic plant filter. That might be the lowest fuss way of getting some of the nitrates into some plants.

TheKrib has a whole little archive of posts on using Plants as Filters (http://www.thekrib.com/Filters/plant.html).

[RTR]

The issue is not filtration, it is bioload, as already stated. Your filters are doing their job if you do not have ammonia and nitrites. Nitrates are the result of oxidizing those and the only way to reduce that is by water changes, frequent filter cleaning, and/or reducing the bioload.

My mbu puffer (about two feet) in a 180, with 200 gallons of aditional veggie filter (a 120 and two 40s), required 2-3 partials of 1/3 total volume weekly to maintain nitrate less than 40ppm.

I much prefer RFUG as has also been stated, as it is so much easier to keep clean, but it really won't change your nitrate picture (except for capture in the external canisters and the RFUG prefilters rather than in the biobed) - it just moves the collection point for solid waste.

[travelinman1969]

When you say frequent filter cleaning, how often do you do it? I stagger my canisters, aboout 10 days for 1 then the other after another 10 days, and so on. I have 1 canister that has nothing but bio-rocks, bio-foam and floss. I clean 2 mechanical foams (404 has 4) each time and the floss. That's it. Then get it back running ASAP so the bio bacteria doesn't die. The other is mainly a chemical canister. I have bio-rocks at the bottom, carbon in the second tray, occasionally nitra-zorb packs (But that seems to be a waist of money) in the third, and floss in the forth. Today is filter cleaning day for that one but think I might wait till after the changes.

I just read another really intresting article that carpguy hooked me up with. Sounds like the UG is a nitrate time bomb, and I think someone lit the fuse in my tank.

Think I"m gonna pull the UG tomorrow. I'm gonna replace one of the 404's with a penguin 330. Probably add some more plants too. Thinking about the plant filter thing. Sounds cool but how much extra work are they, other than the obvious? What are the maintenance schedules on them?

[carpguy]

My big coup for December was finding some microrasbora that I want to base a new 20g around. I like small and I like planted.

I have no idea what sort of damage 31 inches of pleco can do. I think RTR's basic point about cleaning is… as often as it takes. I'm the wrong guy to ask.

Nitrates are plant food.

Planted, if your fish are compatible, is its own whole thing. It takes time and money, and research and planning. Once your set up its certainly not as complicated as moving cases of water back and forth. It depends on how much you want to put into it. I like it. To me its worth it, but its not for everyone. If its something that seems interesting to you then great, head over to the plant forum. If your fish aren't compatible, you could look into a sump/refugium setup.

An empty AC300 with rock wool and a bunch of philodendrons growing off the back of your tank are going to help move nitrates out of the water and out of the tank. Its a low cost, low expertise option that you could set up fast.

Moving them to a filter is not moving them out of the closed system. Water changes and plants will. Removing gunk from filters will. Thats about it.

Good luck with it…

[travelinman1969]

Hell, I got a ton in it already, what's another few hundred? To keep the nitrates down, I'm gonna look into it. Thanks.

I'm lost on the "rock wool and a bunch of philodendrons" part though.

[carpguy]

Originally posted by travelinman1969
I'm lost on the "rock wool and a bunch of philodendrons" part though.

If you take a good sized HOB and used it as a planter, put something in it that will hold the roots of something like a philodendron or a spider plant and then run the water through it like it's a normal filter, the plants will take nutrients out of the water. One of their favorite nutrients will be nitrate.

Submerged plants in a normal planted tank do the same thing, locking up the nitrogen until you remove it as clippings. Except you'll probably need more intense lighting and maybe some pressurized CO2 and a fertilizer regimen. You'll probably have to wrestle with algae for a little bit.

External plants with their roots in the water don't need as much technology. Maybe a grow lamp. And they don't alter the physical enviroment (like lighting), just the chemistry…

One of those Plant Filter posts (http://www.thekrib.com/Filters/plant.html#5) gets into the details…

[RTR]

I think I have a contribution in the cited Krib thread, but see also:

http://www.aaquaria.com/aquasource/veggie1.shtml

http://www.aaquaria.com/aquasource/veggie.shtml

HTH

Blaming the UG for the nitrates is false reasoning. Nitrates are desireable compared to ammonia and nitrite. Blame the bioload instead. Heavy load means heavy upkeep. The mechanicals on the Puffer system were changed from daily ((the W/D prefilters) to 2-3x weekly.

[Sensei_the_dojo]

This won't help with your Nitrate prob., but might help with the cost of your water changes. If you have Culligan or some other service in your area, you can probably get bottled water for about half of what you're paying at Wal-mart.

[travelinman1969]

Actually, Wal-mart water is .58 a gallon and culligan is 5.00 for 5 gallons. I've already looked into it. I'm moving in a couple of month otherwise I would hook up an R/O system. Gonna get out of this town just because the water issue is killin me. Doing the change now. Pulled the UG and a ton of crud with it. Also bought some more plants. Really like the veggie filter thing, gonna do more research on it. Probably won't try that until I move though.

[Sensei_the_dojo]

Wow. :eek: Wally World Water is the same here, but Culligan and other services are only $1.25 for 5 gallons.

[travelinman1969]

Culligan probably knows how bad the water is here, so they make a killin on it. Well, the nirates are down to 60 ppm so this change has helped a bunch. Hope the plants will bring it down further. I'll do another change over the weekend if needed. I don't think the UG was doing it's job properly, so I hope the change helps. There was a lot more stuff under those plates than it looked like from the bottom.