View Full Version : What is this??
I just noticed that the tail and pectoral fins on my Blue Snakeskin look like this...
http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn166/kali4994/Discus/HPIM2282.jpg
http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn166/kali4994/Discus/HPIM2283.jpg
http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn166/kali4994/Discus/HPIM2284.jpg
Can someone help me diagnosis what it is and how should I treat it? None of the other fish are exhibiting this. Let me know if there is anything else you need to know.
Can I use salt in a discus tank?
Thanks, Kali
shawnhu
08-27-2009, 6:28 PM
Yes, salt can be used with Discus.
Looks like a minor bacterial infection on the fins. How's your water change schedule, and feeding? Could you give a reading on ammonia?
Shawn
Yes, salt can be used with Discus.
Looks like a minor bacterial infection on the fins. How's your water change schedule, and feeding? Could you give a reading on ammonia?
Shawn
Ammonia: 0
Nitrites: 0
Nitrates: 10
pH: 7.4
temp: 84 degrees
I change 75% to 80% daily.
I am raising the temp to 92 degrees and adding salt, should I use maracyn tc for fin rot? I just noticed him doing a "little dance" wiggling his fins like he was trying to remove something.
pinkertd
08-27-2009, 10:39 PM
Kali the fins don't look ragged to me like they would with a fin rot infection, Kinda looks like damage from ammonia burn How long have you had the fish?
kyryah
08-27-2009, 10:52 PM
She has had him since June and I know for a fact that there have been no ammonia spikes or readings or even a possibility of ammonia burns. This is the only fish that looks like this, the white is gone know but the tail fin looks shorter and one of the pectoral fins is now ragged. She can't get a clear picture. I personally feel it is bacterial fin rot.
Kristina
pinkertd
08-27-2009, 10:57 PM
Ammonia burn can happen if a fish has just been shipped, that's why I asked how long she'd had it. If it's fin rot it's a water quality issue but with 75% water changes daily that just doesn't make sense. And since it is occuring in spite of water changes, I would definitely opt to use some maracyn products.
kyryah
08-27-2009, 11:11 PM
The only reason we can come up with is stress - another fish in the tank has been being a bully. She is going to pull that fish out and isolate it and see of it helps matters.
Kristina
This Rainbow Pigeon Blood is a bully, it is actually going after someone in this picture.
http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn166/kali4994/Discus/HPIM2217.jpg
I all started with the Snakeskin being picked on by it, and now has progressed to not only the Snakeskin, but also the Red Pigeon Blood.
http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn166/kali4994/Discus/HPIM2226.jpg
It has gotten to the point that if the Red moves at all (not just at feeding time) the Rainbow will hit it hard in the side. I have been watching today and the Red will now swim with either one or the other of it's pectoral fins, but not use both of them at the same time, the one that is not being used is clamped to it's side. I did watch at feeding times earlier today and every time it moved it got hit hard, the Snakeskin just got chased off. I have removed the Rainbow and isolated it just to see how everyone acts without its presence. I also removed the Snakeskin to an isolation tank, raised the temp and added a little salt.
Any other suggestions??
shawnhu
08-28-2009, 1:48 AM
Aggression issues leading to stressed fish? How many Discus total do you have? Minimum should be 5 in a tank of 55+, or so they say.
If it's bacterial, then raising the temp will only allow it to take a stronger foothold.
Aggression issues leading to stressed fish? How many Discus total do you have? Minimum should be 5 in a tank of 55+, or so they say.
If it's bacterial, then raising the temp will only allow it to take a stronger foothold.
I have 9. 5 of them are all about the same size, and 4 of them are smaller but also about the same size. The 2 with "being picked on" issues are actually the largest.
Aggression issues leading to stressed fish, is actually what I am beginning to lean towards. The Bully is in timeout for an attitude adjustment.
pinkertd
08-28-2009, 8:12 AM
Aggression issues will lead to stressed fish, but unlikely that fin rot will result from that. In my experience it leads to the fish being picked on hiding and refusing to eat, turning darker, losing weight. Every now and then you get a terror of a bully fish. i had one that wouldn't let anyone near the food, had the whole tank of discus terrorized. I even isolated her in another tank for a while but to no avail. It stressed ME out too much so I gave her away. For my discus it was the best remedy.
Shawn's correct, if there is a bacterial issue and the tank temp is raised, the bacteria will only thrive. Best to leave the temp where it has been.
DavidZ
08-28-2009, 11:18 AM
I wonder if an UV filter would be of help in this case(if you have one), instead of meds.
Star_Rider
08-28-2009, 11:27 AM
tattered fins is a direct result of aggression.. stress is only part of it.
I have seen the same from pairs in my angel tanks.
how many Discus in the tank?
you may have to remove the aggressor .
were all the Discus added at the same time?
kyryah
08-28-2009, 11:43 AM
tattered fins is a direct result of aggression.. stress is only part of it.
I have seen the same from pairs in my angel tanks.
how many Discus in the tank?
you may have to remove the aggressor .
were all the Discus added at the same time?
The fishes fin became tattered AFTER it was isolated - so how is that possible?
Kristina
tattered fins is a direct result of aggression.. stress is only part of it.
I have seen the same from pairs in my angel tanks.
how many Discus in the tank?
you may have to remove the aggressor .
were all the Discus added at the same time?
I have 9. 5 of them are all about the same size, and 4 of them are smaller but also about the same size. The 2 with "being picked on" issues are actually the largest.
Aggression issues leading to stressed fish, is actually what I am beginning to lean towards. The Bully is in timeout for an attitude adjustment.
No all of the fish weren't added at the same time. The Rainbow Pigeon Blood, "The Bully" was actually the last added.
Ammonia burn can happen if a fish has just been shipped, that's why I asked how long she'd had it. If it's fin rot it's a water quality issue but with 75% water changes daily that just doesn't make sense. And since it is occuring in spite of water changes, I would definitely opt to use some maracyn products.
Aggression issues leading to stressed fish? How many Discus total do you have? Minimum should be 5 in a tank of 55+, or so they say.
If it's bacterial, then raising the temp will only allow it to take a stronger foothold.
Aggression issues will lead to stressed fish, but unlikely that fin rot will result from that. In my experience it leads to the fish being picked on hiding and refusing to eat, turning darker, losing weight. Every now and then you get a terror of a bully fish. i had one that wouldn't let anyone near the food, had the whole tank of discus terrorized. I even isolated her in another tank for a while but to no avail. It stressed ME out too much so I gave her away. For my discus it was the best remedy.
Shawn's correct, if there is a bacterial issue and the tank temp is raised, the bacteria will only thrive. Best to leave the temp where it has been.
I added the Maracyn and listened to Shawn, just forgot to post and let you all know I really was listening. I do have all of the concerned fish isolated in either a hospital tank or an timeout tank. And if it comes down to it I will trade the Rainbow in. It is not fun watching discus who are too afraid to move or eat. I want them to go back to schooling like they were before the arrival of the Rainbow.
shawnhu
08-28-2009, 2:14 PM
I have 9. 5 of them are all about the same size, and 4 of them are smaller but also about the same size. The 2 with "being picked on" issues are actually the largest.
Aggression issues leading to stressed fish, is actually what I am beginning to lean towards. The Bully is in timeout for an attitude adjustment.
What's the tank size for the 9? Are they each over 3"?
I hope the adjustment works, sometimes as they get older, they get along. But as juvies, they can be a bit fiesty, especially if they are starting to pair up.
shawnhu
08-28-2009, 2:19 PM
The fishes fin became tattered AFTER it was isolated - so how is that possible?
Kristina
Damage to the fins and it's rays may not show immediately. Especially at the tips of the fins, bacteria will get a hold where there is no slime coat protecting the fins. Fin rotting like that is usually due to ammonia burns as Debbi has indicated, or heavy darting from stressed fish or being chased. It'll heal if the stressor is removed, and clean water is provided. In some cases where the damage is severe, medications are needed to help the fish along in the recovery.
I think she'll be fine, since the agressor has been removed, and the temp is stable with some meds in now.
Shawn
Star_Rider
08-28-2009, 2:45 PM
agree with shawn and others.
clean water in a stress reduced environment is the first step.
you will eventually need to get the fish out of Hosp QT.
i suspect the newbie was trying to get it's place in the pecking order.
I also suspect it maybe an alpha fish.
make sure you have places for the fish to retreat to when you add them back.
What's the tank size for the 9? Are they each over 3"?
I hope the adjustment works, sometimes as they get older, they get along. But as juvies, they can be a bit fiesty, especially if they are starting to pair up.
They are temporarily in a 55 gallon. Their permanent home will be a 125 gallon which Hans has suggested to me will be enough room for 12 discus with proper water changes and feeding.
There are 5 of them that are 3-4", the other 4 are about 2.5-3".
agree with shawn and others.
clean water in a stress reduced environment is the first step.
you will eventually need to get the fish out of Hosp QT.
i suspect the newbie was trying to get it's place in the pecking order.
I also suspect it maybe an alpha fish.
make sure you have places for the fish to retreat to when you add them back.
That is what I thought also. I do know that the Blue Snakeskin used to be the alpha and the Red Pigeon used to be the beta. After adding the Rainbow that all changed. It just seems to have a bad attitude and is always fins clamped down and chasing or hitting another. As for the hiding places that is why I recently did a rescape on the tank to provide that. I did have them all bare bottom but decided I wanted a little "getting away" space for each of them if they so desired.
For verification what should the parameters be for nitrates in a planted tank in conjunction with discus? If too high/low what kind of symptoms could it cause for discus? Of course the ammonia is 0 and the nitrites 0.
For verification what should the parameters be for nitrates in a planted tank in conjunction with discus? If too high/low what kind of symptoms could it cause for discus? Of course the ammonia is 0 and the nitrites 0.
Anyone have an answer??
shawnhu
08-31-2009, 2:00 AM
Hi Kali,
I don't think there's a real answer to this, as Nitrate levels of 20 and under is deemed as fine for Discus. Some say that anything over 20 will stunt the fish, but I've been breaking these rules and setting new records as I go, so I really can't say for sure. I'd go with the traditional 20 and under rule for now.
If you're going with a planted tank, the most important thing I think is supplying the plants with ammonia from the fish. I've found that plants can readily use ammonia, more so than nitrate. I would feed heavily once the lights go on, and stop feeding a few hours before lights off. I have still yet to establish a planted tank with my Discus, but I hope to achieve that soon.
Shawn
theredchaser
08-31-2009, 5:11 AM
For verification what should the parameters be for nitrates in a planted tank in conjunction with discus? If too high/low what kind of symptoms could it cause for discus? Of course the ammonia is 0 and the nitrites 0.
I would aim for nitrates to be around 10 ppm for a discus tank. However, don't do a planted tank unless the discus are done growing. Even with adult discus, a planted tank can be a real pain. Lightly planted with easy growers like amazon swords are best if this is your first planted tank.
Discus get stunted because of an inhibitory hormone excreted from their bodies. High nitrates are usually because of lack of tank maintenance, thus the hormone levels will be high as well. This is why top breeders change 90-100% of the water. At 20ppm nitrates, I would be more worried about a hunger strike, which will also lead to stunting if the discus is still a juvenile.
For a planted tank, if you keep up your water change routine your plants will most likely rot away/stunt unless you dose ferts every time you do a wc. From my experience, plants start dying off when the nitrates are below 5ppm. What I do is I take care of micronutrients by shoving root tabs in the soil while I dose KNO3 after my daily water change to bring my nitrates back up to 10ppm. That takes care of 2 of the 3 macronutrients, and phosphates are plentiful in food. Again, I only recommend planted tanks for adult discus only.