Help...Sick Discus and Angels

[clayt101]

OK....I screwed up, I put brand new discus in my big tank (before I took them out and put them in a quarentine tank, they looked fine). Now all my discus appear to be sick (except the new ones). Angels are sick as well. Angels are kind of shaking back and forth. Discus are just in the corners of the tank.

New discus in the quarintine tank are fine. Any ideas / recomended medications?

Thanks

[The Zigman]

its kind of normal for discus to hide till they feel comfortable in thier tank..

what do you mean by them being sick? What are their symtoms?

What are your water params, including temperature.
How big are the discus?

How big are the angels?

[clayt101]

This is a well establish 225 gallon tank. Discus are several years old and very friendly. Angels are large, discus are large.

Temp is 86, ph 7.8-8.0.

Not sure on ammonia and nitirite, but it should be very low.

[msjinkzd]

are they eating? what are their exact symptoms?

[clayt101]

My photos suck as I turned the lights off. Basically, the discus are lethargic, some are at the top, some at the bottom. The angels swim forward and backward and then shake. The new discus are fine, eating like piranha in the 10 gallon tank.

[Star_Rider]

you need to check the parameters.

are the discus showing stressors signs?

clamped fins? dark colors?

what else is going in the tank..planted? CO2?

[clayt101]

One of the discus people I know told me it is a virus. Here is our email converation.



I would bet anything that it is Viral

Move all the sick fish in smaller tanks and do large daily water-changes. The entire slime coat may decay on the fish and shed. Large water-changes usually help. A Rx will just stress them further (in most cases).
After they clear the virus, they may look like hell, but most will recover.
Send me a typical photo and a description of the fish behavior so I can confirm my ............


I am thinking that you are correct about the virus. That would explain why it is only the angels and discus. Tetras and plecos are fine. On the plus side, I am guessing that since the new discus are acting fine, that the old discus should heal up.

You think I should up the temp? It is at 86 right now.


I would lower it to about 83. But, moving them to a small tank where you can help them shed the slime coat from there environment helps greatly. The gills will also be affected. It usually takes two weeks to run it's course. Took me a couple of major fish losses and much bad advice till I found this simple method.

I never use antibiotics. If treated with a clean environment, you should not have any fungus. And antibiotics will not treat a virus nor can you achieve a therapeutic blood level unless injected. Discus and and Angelfish are prone to slime-coat infections like people are prone to lung and throat infections from flues and cold virues.

By quarantining new fish, some exposure is transferred at lower levels like a live vaccination.

[Arkangel77]

you need to check the parameters.

are the discus showing stressors signs?

clamped fins? dark colors?

what else is going in the tank..planted? CO2?


Clay start with the basics. Run a full series of test on the tank. Has anything changed recently (besides the new fish)?

[clayt101]

Well, I took Chucks advice and moved them out of the big tank. The better discus into a 20 long, the worse discu into a 20 long and the angels into a 35 hex.

Been a long few hours...to do this, I had to strip a female yellow lab. Catch about 15 3 month old yellow labs and put them in my cichlid tank with the stripped female. Catch about 50 younger yellow labs, and 60 or so L-144 pleco babies and put them in the 10 gallon that had the discus that brought the virus. I put the 3 discus that brought the virus into the big tank.

I still need to put the brand new yellow lab babies into the 10 gallon tank in a baby holder.

[Arkangel77]

WOW - that's a lota work! - I need some of those Plecos when they get bigger

[Star_Rider]

Viral infections are rare but chuck is right.you cannot treat a virus with meds..they have to run their course.

the normal suggestion is separate the ill fish and treat with a very clean tank(water changes)
good luck

[clayt101]

WOW - that's a lota work! - I need some of those Plecos when they get bigger

Might want to wait till I get this virus cleared up. Not sure if the plecos could carry it or not.


2 dead so far. One was badly stunted anyway. One was a big yellow/orange.

Plan on changing 50% twice a day. On the plus side, the discus are eating.

[pinkertd]

If it's the same virus that I dealt with a few years ago by bringing imported discus into the house when I only had domestics, it will take you close to a month for it to run it's course and for the fish to actually look good again. The only saving grace is that they ate through the entire illness. They will shed huge amounts of slime every day. Mine were in my 72G tank, no illness with any of the other species of fish, it is strictly a discus virus. I passed it into my tank by using the same python from the QT tank in another room to this one. While the virus does have to run it's course, you may encounter some other issues because of the discus's weakened state. I wound up also having to treat for cloudy eyes and a couple of patches of fungus along the way. Huge water changes every day, without fail. Keep the filter clean of shedding slime. Wipe the glass down daily. Feed the discus the best food you have, I kept mine on bloodworms since the always eat those with gusto. Keep them in a subdued light environment, and watch them for secondary health issues. Do not subject them to any salt. While they are continuously shedding their slime coat, their bodies are without protection and you will burn their skin. This virus is something the new discus carry normally, they have an immunity to it, and it's very frustrating to watch the new discus eat like pigs and act totally normal while your old stock looks like death warmed over. Hang in there! It is not an easy thing to deal with. I was extremely fortunate in that I didn't lose any of my discus.

[Arkangel77]

DUDE - pinkertd (http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/member.php?u=73132) knows her stuff!!!!! Fallow this lady's Instructions!!!!!!!!!!!!

We will talk when ya get them all fixed up.

Arkangel77

[clayt101]

1 more stunded discus gone. 1 beautiful angel gone.

Arkangel77, if you are interested in the plecos, check out either 50 Fathoms, Aquatic Speciaties or Marks Marine. They should all have a few left in stock. Those are the stores that I supply. Those would all be virus free.

[pinkertd]

Sorry for your losses clayt. How are the rest doing.

[Arkangel77]

I also am sorry for your loss - Lets hope the rest perk up!!!!!!!:cry:

[clayt101]

No updates as of tonight. Last black angel looks to be in bad shape. Some discus are doing okay, others still not too good. We will see who makes it through the night.

[clayt101]

1 stunted Blue Diamond, 1 Large Red Mellon gone.

Black Angel in bad shape.

1 old snakeskin in bad shape.

Many discus still eating though.

[clayt101]

Wipe the glass down daily.
Missed that part. Will begin tonight.

[clayt101]

Black Angel in bad shape.

1 old snakeskin in bad shape.


Euthanized

[clayt101]

1 Wild Discus, 1 Pearl Scale Angel died over night

[fishorama]

I'm so sorry you're going through this terrible ordeal.

[pinkertd]

Just awful Clay, just awful! Are they still shedding the slime coat?

[clayt101]

1 more dead. I got tired, so I put them all back in the big tank, and honestly, they looked a little bit better....we will see.

[Arkangel77]

Hows it going now man?

[clayt101]

1 silver angel died. Fish are starting to look a little bit better.

Only one stunted discus looks questionable. All surviving angels have lost a lot of finnage. I hope it grows back.

One interesting thing that I noticed is that the new discus (virus carriers) seem to bit the slime off of the sick discus and they seem to like it...like being scratched.

[Arkangel77]

One interesting thing that I noticed is that the new discus (virus carriers) seem to bit the slime off of the sick discus and they seem to like it...like being scratched.

That's weird, I hope the worst is over for you! This is a shame. Good luck man.
Arkangel77

[clayt101]

Had to euthanize one discus and one angel today. We will see how it goes.

[pinkertd]

Sorry you're still losing fish! What a terrible shame!
I watched one of my discus pick at a scratched area with lose scales on the body of another discus. Reminded me of how dogs lick wounds. The discus with the scratch seemed to like it too.

[tonergirl]

So sorry about your beautiful fish! You must be exhausted! It sounds to me like you're doing everything humanly possible to save them and I'm sure it'll turn around soon.

[fishorama]

OMG, I'm so sorry Clay

[clayt101]

Thanks for the thoughts. I am not all that depressed as I have done all I can.

Today, I lost 1 stunted discus, had to euthanize one large discus.

[Arkangel77]

Thanks for the thoughts. I am not all that depressed as I have done all I can.

Today, I lost 1 stunted discus, had to euthanize one large discus.

I AM DEPRESSED for ya! I hate to loose a fish, I can't imagine. But you are right - all you can do is what ya can do. Once you have done your best you just gota let nature run its course.


Have you seen any improvement in the others?

Arkangel77

[clayt101]

It looks as though I have pretty much made it through. Lost 1 angel today. Not directly from the virus, but if the tank had never been hit with the virus, the angel would probably still be alive. 1 angel still questionable, has a cloudy eye and missing some scales. All others seem to be doing ok.