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LotusMira
10-11-2009, 4:34 PM
Hello all,

I'm an admitted newbie to this forum, a graduate student in DC who, along with my husband, has spent the last several months to a year trying to get our first freshwater aquarium started. We have with a 26-gal aquarium, with a power wheel filter (Marineland Emperor 280 BioWheel, with charcoal/zeolite in its cartridge as directed), a heater, a thermometer (it's generally between 75 and 79 degrees with our heater on its lowest setting), fake plants only. We have hard (perhaps very hard) tap water. We use a water conditioner, of course, and use it to neutralize both chlorines and chloramines. We haven't tried (as far as we know) unusual or difficult-to-care-for fish, nor have we stocked heavily, yet we seem to have had nothing but trouble with our tank.

We started with maybe five Glofish (zebra danios), some of which did ok for some time, although two died out after a few weeks. After a few weeks of the Glofish we added maybe 3 Glofish and a 3 cory catfish. Within a few weeks, a few Glofish and cories had died (one disappeared entirely....???). We had been testing regularly, and weren't sure whether we had cycled (we didn't notice the types of fluxuations in our test strips that our books/info said indicated cycling), but nor did we ever get dangerous levels. We test for ammonia, hardness, pH, alkalinity, nitrates, nitrites, and none have ever appeared to be concerningly within the danger zone. We also do partial water changes regularly, or whenever our ammonia or some other level is climbing, sometimes (when we've had some deaths, etc) as much as 80% or more of the water. We know there is a lot of disagreement about whether larger or smaller water changes are best, but our particular book recommends large ones, so we err on that side. In any case, for a few months we seemed to have regular die-offs (one or two at a time) in our fish, experimenting primarily with Glofish, occasionally with cory catfish, and - briefly - with bamboo shrimp. We've never had more than 8-10 fish in the tank at a time yet, because we haven't been successful enough to feel comfortable stocking up higher. Finally, after we had gotten some brown algae out-breaks and added algae-reducers (which we presume is not related, but it's worth mentioning everything!), all of the fish that were left died (some of the Glofish had lived for many months, though as you can see we had had trouble keeping a constant, if light, stock for very long).

So that was take one, lasting maybe six months, before we just cleaned out the tank, cleaned off the plants/statues/rocks, changed the filter and charcoal (but kept the wheel, in case it might help establish a biofilter sooner), put in new gravel, and added and conditioned our tap water. We let that water sit for a week or two with no fish (plus a small amount of fish flakes to decompose per advice we stumbled on some of our research), then did a big water change (just to be sure that any possible residue from dish soap, like Palmolive, which was used on the statues to help get off the algae. was washed away), and tried, in our "new" tank, four black mollies just two days ago. They seemed active at the store, but within a day at least one was dead and at least two were looking very bad. Today we ran all the tests (both strip and tube/chemical ammonia tests as well as strip tests for other water aspects) and none of our results showed levels out of safe bounds. Water temperature has been 78 or so. We know mollies like salinity, but nothing we've read has said they require it, and since our water is on the hard side, we haven't added any aquarium salt. We did a major water change today, just to try to freshen the tank just in case it might help, and now we are watching our two sickly mollies, hoping they might make a recovery, but we just don't know what to expect, or what to do if these die, including whether to even try again. We both have done a lot of research, yet we seem to be having awful luck.

Again, we've never really been sure whether we've gotten the tank to successfully cycle at any point. We stocked slowly, kept levels safe, did regular water changes, and had our first tank for many months before the cleaning out and trying again I mentioned (which just happened two weeks ago or so). Though we test semi-regularly, we've never noticed much of a change in our nitrates or nitrites, even as our ammonia levels have fluctuated....??? :1zhelp:

I apologize if this is a scattered post, or if I've left anything out that is relevant. We really want to be successful and to keep at it, but we feel awful about the fish that have already died and aren't sure whether we should even keep going at this point! Are there any glaring problems in our approach so far? Anything else in the water we're failing to test for? We don't know what we're doing wrong.

(I know this isn't best, but our options are limited, so our fish and equipment have all come from PetCo.)

Thank you SO much in advance, and thanks to all for having such an informative forum! :)

Jspigs
10-11-2009, 5:03 PM
Test strips are not accurate. I would advise you to get a good liquid test kit like the API Fresh Water Master Test Kit. It is more expensive than the strips but far more accurate.

Also read up on fishless cycling.

EDIT: I just noticed you used algae reducers. Algae reducers can be harmful to fish.

LotusMira
10-11-2009, 6:26 PM
Hi Jspigs, thanks so much for your reply. We actually heard that about test strips. We do need to get a water-test kit like the one you've recommended, but we do at least currently use a liquid test kit for ammonia testing (which seemed to us like the most likely problem, but correct me if I'm mistaken!). We also have looked a little into fishless cycling (and perhaps we should try it again!), but it seemed, with such few (and supposedly hardy) fish, that we would be ok with fish cycling.... maybe this was wrong? As to your last point, we in fact have been holding off on the algae-reducers in our most recent tank (though, out of curiosity, what else would you recommend for controlling algae growth?).

Does anyone else have any ideas, from reading our post?

Thanks again!

Jspigs
10-11-2009, 7:30 PM
Fish-in cycling (cycling with hardy fish) is actually very stressful on the fish, in fact I am unfortunately doing a fish-in cycle (long story) and my Betta got fin rot due to a weakened immune system caused by high nitrite levels.

As for controlling algae you will have to get a algae eating fish other than a Chinese algae eater(once the tank is cycled) and until then remove the algae by hand or with algae scrappers (I mean the ones that physically scrape away the algae NOT chemicals).

Also could you post your exact levels (ammonia nitrite nitrate)?

I also noticed you used zeolite in your filter. It is my understanding that zeolite will absorb ammonia and starve your biological filter (the biowheel which should NEVER be replaced) I would remove the zeolite and use just the charcoal (or as it is more often referred to on here "activated carbon").

Hope this helps:).

kelly82
10-12-2009, 10:04 AM
As for controlling algae you will have to get a algae eating fish other than a Chinese algae eater(once the tank is cycled) and until then remove the algae by hand or with algae scrappers (I mean the ones that physically scrape away the algae NOT chemicals).





Personally i would not add a fish to control algae, there should be no problem with algae if you dont over feed and your light period isnt too long. adding a fish purely for eating algae will add to the bioload of your tank just in the aim of hopefully battling algae issues. also, as far as im aware, no fish can survive purely on algae, they need supplementing with slices of cucumber etc. if you do need to get something to nibble away at the algae maybe add a few apple snails.

definately go with a iquid test though rather than a strip test, much more accurate. good luck with your tank.

jamesstill84
10-12-2009, 12:04 PM
Walmart.com has the freshwater master test kit for a little over $17 with free shipping to the store where you can pick it up. :D It beats paying $45 for it at a LFS.

Jspigs
10-12-2009, 5:19 PM
Personally i would not add a fish to control algae, there should be no problem with algae if you dont over feed and your light period isnt too long. adding a fish purely for eating algae will add to the bioload of your tank just in the aim of hopefully battling algae issues. also, as far as im aware, no fish can survive purely on algae, they need supplementing with slices of cucumber etc. if you do need to get something to nibble away at the algae maybe add a few apple snails.

definately go with a iquid test though rather than a strip test, much more accurate. good luck with your tank.

I was not saying that getting a fish to control algae was the best idea, I was merely stating it as an alternative to chemicals.

OldMan47
10-12-2009, 8:50 PM
Let me say this as simply as I can, with no intent to offend.
Zeolite in your filter is part of the problem, not the solution. Changing the filter media every 4 to 6 weeks, as recommended by many manufacturers, is a way to ruin your cycle and get to start again. Filter media must be cleaned in used tank water during a water change and never disposed of. Think of it this way and you should catch on quickly, the bacteria that you want to encourage only grow in any significant numbers on surfaces where the flow of water containing oxygen and some trace of ammonia is present. This describes the surfaces inside a filter fairly well along with a small part of the surface of your substrate and some of the tank ornaments.

Cycling with fish can only be done with success if you are willing to do drastic large water changes whenever they are called for. It can take at least 6 weeks and sometimes longer to successfully cycle a tank's filter. Whenever you read ammonia or nitrites in excess of about 0.25 ppm using a liquid reagent test kit, it is time to do a large, 50% or more, water change using dechlorinated tap water at about the temperature of the tank water. This may require twice daily water changes during the nitrite spike but be aware that nitrites affect fish much like CO affects mammals. No matter how much oxygen is in the water, the fish can asphyxiate by having their hemoglobin tied up with nitrites instead of oxygen. Just as you would save a person by removing them from a CO atmosphere, you can save the fish by removing the nitrites from their water.

Why in the world would I object to using zeolites to reduce ammonia levels? The answer is simple. While using zeolites, the ammonia will be quite well controlled until the moment that the zeolite becomes exhausted. Sounds good doesn't it? When the zeolite becomes exhausted, the bacteria will have ammonia become available for their use but will not have grown much while waiting to see that trace of ammonia that they need to grow and expand their numbers. Now you are faced with something that you thought you were avoiding. Suddenly there is nothing in the tank to remove any ammonia and the water very quickly becomes toxic. If you are not home at the time to notice the strange fish behavior and test the water, the fish will be poisoned before you become aware there is a problem. The organic approach of using a bacterial colony to control ammonia and nitrites does not leave you hanging like that, with a moment of inattention killing your fish.

Big Mike
10-12-2009, 10:24 PM
:iagree:Agree with OldMan47. Dont give up this is a great hobby that will reward you in so many ways. Read as much as you can and you will learn very quickly.(so many sites so much info)

zpromoter
10-13-2009, 10:11 AM
nevermind

ODPILOT
11-08-2009, 7:57 PM
Oldman47 (not that old) likely has nailed it !! Sounds like by using the ammonia remover, that you have not allowed the good, nitrifying bacteria to thrive. They thrive off of ammonia and then covert the ammonia to nitrites and then nitrates. Of those three, the ammonia is the most poisonous. In a well established tank, there should be ZERO ammonia -- not "acceptable" levels as you say in your orignal post.
Cleaning out your entire fish tank, replacing the gravel and cleaning the filter, is the WORST thing you can do -- as you have completely removed the nitrifying bacteria and the tank has to cycle all over again. A new tank will have a rise in ammonia, before the nitrifying bacteria becomes abundant enough to convert it to nitrites and nitrates. You can help with adding commercial preparations that add this nitrifying bacteria. I just started a new 75 gall tank -- and it took 2 weeks before my ammonia levels came down to zero. Make sure you are vacuuming/siphoning the gravel to remove uneaten fish food and fish poops -- both which are sources of ammonia. Keeping up with this will drastically decrease the pollutants in your tank. Depending on how many gallons your tank is, how many fish you have and how much food you're putting in, you will have varying amounts of ammonia being produced. Add too much food or dont' vacuum enough, the nitrifying bacteria, which lives on all surfaces - gravel, ornaments, plants, filter medium, etc -- will not be able to keep up with the amount of garbage in the water. Also, the chorine and chloramine neutralizers can also bind up oxygen in the tank - so make sure that you have plenty of air bubbles going. You may want to check with your local water company and find out how many ppm (Parts per million) they are adding of chlorine and chloramines. You may find, as I have here in Florida, that you need more of the dechlorinator than what is recommended by the manufacturer. I find the most common reason for fish dieing is ammonia poisoning due to over feeding, not enough vacuuming the crap from the gravel and/or insuffience water changes. Remember your ammonia should be zero level at all times and if it's not, then there's too much food and poops,
Mike

lin
11-11-2009, 6:16 AM
I, also am a newbie . . . Oldman47 suggests to NEVER change filter media??? I have a Marineland penquin 350 w/biowheel. I don't ever change the biowheel-just rinse in old water- but I do change the 2 filter cartridges(sponge with charcoal cartridges) every 3 weeks . . . is this not the right thing to do??? If this is not the thing to do, then how does one clean those grungy things??
Odpilot's reply makes for more questions . . . what is too much food, not enough gravel vacuum and what is right amount and frequency of water changes????
Great site; great forum; sorry i didn't find you sooner; enjoying and thanks for the help.

SubRosa
11-11-2009, 6:40 AM
A Biowheel eliminates the need to maintain bacteria on the filter pads. Change them as needed.

bushwhacker
11-11-2009, 3:07 PM
subrosa, i have biowheel filters on two of my tanks i only change the cartridges when they fall apart.. other than that i just rinse em off and put em right back in the filter

LeahK
11-11-2009, 3:21 PM
Hello all, I'm an admitted newbie to this forum, a graduate student in DC who, along with my husband, has spent the last several months to a year trying to get our first freshwater aquarium started.

Hi! I'm also a grad student, and my husband and I have a fish tank, too. It can actually be a fun and relaxing hobby once you get past the initial cycling stages.

I just wanted to second what everyone else has said--it sounds like the tank never really cycled. If I'm correct, the ammonia has fluctuated but not the nitrites? While cycling, you should see an ammonia spike, followed by a nitrite spike, and then followed by the appearance of nitrate. After the first two spikes, ammonia and nitrite should only read 0. That is the only "safe" level. If, during cycling, they ever creep up to 0.25, it's time for a water change.

I also wanted to say, maybe one contributor to the dying fish--in addition to cycling problems--is sick fish from the store. It sounded like you were replacing some of the fish as they died, right? Every time you get a fish from the store, you run the risk of it bringing a disease into your tank. That's why many people quarantine their new fish in a separate tank for up to a month, before putting them in the main tank.

Anyway, good luck with the tank! I hope you get the cycle settled down soon!

Tonalea
11-11-2009, 10:06 PM
What's been said is all very good.

My only other concern is to not use soaps to clean things for your fish tank. I'm fairly certain vinegar or diluted bleach is fine, but soap is just SO hard to rinse off that it's generally recommended to stay away from it.