Stuck fishless cycling?

[Anne L.]

First of all, happy 2004 to everyone!

I have some questions about the fishless cycle I've been doing. I started it in my 10 gallon on Dec 12th. pH of the tank is 7.4 and has held steady.

My ammonia has dropped to 0 since Dec 29th, nitrites have been at 3.3 or above since Dec 24th. I have not seen a decrease in the nitrites yet, although the color may be a little lighter today.

I've also been adding 1 ml of household ammonia since the levels dropped to zero to feed the bacteria.

Is my cycle stuck or slowing down, or are we on the right track?
I also added some Cycle to the tank today as I had a little left. Approximately how long should it take to see the nitrites fall, and do they fall quickly or gradually?

Can someone tell me if I'm doing the right things here as this is our first aquarium and I want to be successful. I'm sure you guys remember me posting a lot at the beginning of all of this.

Thanks in advance!

[Anne L.]

Bumping for help - I bet everyone's still recovering from New Years'.

aquariumfishguy, are you out there?

thanks

[Matt W]

Sounds like everything is on track....give it another week and a half and I bet you will see those nitrites drop to zero....

[Gulp]

I added some "Biozyme" the other day as I was having some pretty large spikes of nitrite. Overnight....it dropped to almost nothing. The stuff was $5 at the LFS. Here is a link to the stuff:

http://www.aq-products.com/Catalog/Water%20Treatments/Biozyme.htm

[Anne L.]

Thanks, Matt W, I sure hope so. So am I right in giving the tank 1 ml of household ammonia every day until I get zero nitrites?

Also, should I spike the tank with more ammonia (say 5 ppm) after the nitrites drop to zero just to make sure it's cycled?

Not sure about this part.

[Matt W]

Different people use different techniques, but I would probably dose the tank to get it to 3ppm-5ppm Ammonia each day, as long as it is dropping to 0 within 24 hours....

Once you can dose the tank to 5ppm ammonia and it ends up with 0 ammonia and 0 nitrite with 24 hours, you are ready to go....

[TKOS]

What are your nirate readings. Sometimes high nitrates can lead to a stall in the cycle. But if your nitrites aren't too low yet I expect that your nitrates really haven't climbed.

[Anne L.]

Thanks for all the help, guys!
I tested my nitrites again this morning and they seem to have come down to the next level. It was at the highest - 3.3 and is now down to the next color level. Can't remember what the number is and I'm not near the kit right now.

I also added 2 extra droppers of ammonia this evening and I'll see what that level is tomorrow as well.

I don't have a nitrate kit yet, but I'll get one if things don't start happening soon to see what's going on.

Gulp, I wish I could get biozyme/biospira up here in Canada, but our fish stores don't stock it and I can't import it for some reason. Cycle is about the only thing; it came with the starter kit so no harm in trying it, I guess.

Well, wish me luck in the next few days and I'll come back and let you know how things stand.

In the meantime, I've been doing lots of research into the types of fish that are suitable for beginners and have been prowling the LFS around here. We have 2-3 pretty decent ones, so I've found.

[Anne L.]

Well, last night I dosed the tank with more ammonia to bring it up to approx. 3 ppm. This morning ammonia is down to 0 again and nitrites are at 1.6 ppm, same as yesterday.

Hopefully I'll see a drop again in the nitrites over the next few days.

Does anyone think that adding more cycle will help at all? I have a little bottle that came with the kit, so it's not costing me anything to add it. Or will it slow things down?

[anonapersona]

When the nitrites start to drop they do it really fast. By adding that bump of ammonia you have lengthened the time you must wait. The ammonia processing bacteria can handle it, but the nitrite processing ones now have to catch up again.

Slow and steady, keep the ammonia level and be patient. Don't add any Cycle, it may contain ammonia also.

The increase will mean that you can stock more fish, but no one has ever figured out how many fish equals any particular ppm of ammonia.

When the ammonia goes to zero 24 hours after addition, and the nitries are zero too, you are done. Do a very large water change and add fish.

In a 10 gallon you can add about 10 small fish, like 6 tetras, plus 3 or 4 others to be the clean up crew. I like otos and shrimp and cory catfish or kuhlie loaches. Each of these likes to be with several of their own kind, so I suggest 3 catfish, and 3 otos. Yes, I know that adds up tomore than 10 fish but these are small fish if you get the right catfish, 1 1/2 inch not 3 inch ones.

I would suggest adding all of one sort at the same time, then testing for a few weeks to be sure they tank has handled that well. That way all the competition within a zone is all worked out, and the earlier fish are not stressed by having their territory cut in half or worse by later fish showing up. Adding fish to another zone, like the bottom feeders, isn't as stressful.

Here is a link to a few articles that I particularly like

Not so Boring fish -- by Tom Griffin (http://www.aaquaria.com/aquasource/boring.shtml)

In Praise of the Species Tank - by RTR (http://www.aaquaria.com/aquasource/species.shtml)

[Anne L.]

Really informative post, anonapersona. So should I not add any more ammonia at this point and wait for nitrites to drop?

I was wondering whether to add all of one type of fish at once or not and from what you've said, that's what I'll be doing once things cycle.

I was thinking of tetras and corys, also maybe some zebra danios - would this be a good mixture?

[anonapersona]

No, you do keep feeding, just try to not change the amounts all the time.

Just decide if you are going to add the "2 extra droppers of ammonia" all the time. You've started, so you may as well finish, just understand that this has added a few days to the cycle. The nitrite processing bacteria are slower to grow and they don't like ammonia, so increasing the ammonia slows them down, plus the nitrite they have to handle has increased as the ammonia is processed by that group of bacteria.

Keep adding ammonia, daily, test each morning before the new addition. One morning you will see ammonia and nitrite at 0 -- the cycle is then complete. At that point you must continue feeding the bacteria you have grown, either with ammonia at the same rate you had been using, or by adding fish who will produce the ammonia.

If you are ready to add fish, do a very, very large water change, like 80% or better, to remove as much of the nitrates as possible, since you have no test and don't know how high they might be... you could take a sample to the pet store and let them test for you, then do whatever water change is necessary to get the nitrates down to about 5ppm. Consider getting a nitrate test kit, as it will help you determine when to do water changes and how large -- the goal is to keep nitrates to ~20ppm, or 40 ppm if you are lazy. Picky fish keepers shoot for 20ppm. Nitrate is the end product of "the cycle", created from nitrite, not deadly like ammonia and nitrite, but simply a pollutant, like smoke in a room to humans it makes you uncomfortable but you can get used to it if it increases slowly though enough of it will make you sick or kill you.

If you are not ready to get fish, keep feeding the bacteria. And do some moderate water changes to remove nitrates anyhow, as astronomical nitrates can mess with the bacteria you have cultured.


Tetras are fine, cories are too. Not zebra danios -- the tank is too small, they need more swimming room, they get a lot larger than the ones you see in the store and they are very, very active fish. They get manic in a too small tank, I have 5 in a 29 gallon and 30 inches of length is not quite enough, IMO.

Give some consideration to the sort of tap water you have when selecting fish, do you know your pH and hardness?

[Kanstar]

why do people cycle their tanks this way? Is there any more of a benefit of doing it this way or what?

[Matt W]

Originally posted by Kanstar
why do people cycle their tanks this way? Is there any more of a benefit of doing it this way or what?


http://www.csupomona.edu/~jskoga/Aquariums/Ammonia.html

[anonapersona]

Once you have one tank cycled, you shouldn't ever have to do it again for other tanks as you can share bacteria from filter squeezings.

BUT, the first time, you need to go through growing the bacteria. It is hard on fish and the ones that go through cycling often are damaged.

[Anne L.]

Thanks, anonapersona. I did cut back the ammonia, and it seems that 2 ml will get it to drop to 0 overnight. Nitrites were about 1.6 so they are dropping. I'll probably pick up a nitrate kit fairly soon to see what's going on with that as well. I haven't gotten it yet because I knew I didn't need it quite yet.

Our water is quite hard; don't know exactly, the pH is 7.4.

So no zebra danios then, o.k. I kind of wondered about how active they were, so I'll likely stick to tetras and corys. How will rasboras do in this type of setup?

You've been really helpful, thanks a bunch. My computer at home has crashed, so now I'll have to post from work until it gets fixed.

[Anne L.]

Well, nitrites are still at about 1.6 or so, haven't dropped yet. I'm adding 1 ml household grade ammonia every day. Is this too much, stalling things, or should I keep this amount going? I've seen where some people only add 2-3 drops, but I'm not sure if that is lab-strength ammonia or not.

I'll be at one month into the cycling on January 12th.

My kids are starting to get impatient for sure (and so am I).

Thanks

[TKOS]

Well you have to add enough to make sure that the bacteria still gets food. So I wouldn't really go below 1 ppm.

Now is the time to get that fish stocking list all finalized so you can rush out atthe right moment and make those exciting purchases.

Rasboras will work fine with most tetras.

[Anne L.]

Thanks, TKOS. I'll just keep plugging away.

I think we'll put in some tetras for a start, not neons, though because I've heard they're not as hardy. The headlight/taillight or glowlight types are pretty cool. Our tank is more for the kids, so it's got some pretty colorful stuff in there, and I think the silvery tetras would look great.

I also saw some really cool little rasboras at our big fish store. I didn't think I would be able to get them around here.

Then we'll put in 3-4 corys for bottom feeders. They are cool little guys, the way they poke around in the gravel.

I'll be sure to stock the tank slowly to give everything a chance to catch up - even 2-3 fish right now would be exciting.
Can't wait!

[anonapersona]

Cory catfish are great, 6 is better than 3 or 4, IMO if you get small ones. They are just so cute when they hoover (suck and hover at the same time) as they dust off things in the tank. They swim in formation, the more the merrier with cories! Get all the same type, for like different nationalities of humans, given a choice they will associate with their own first.

They like a bit of sand, I've dug out some gravel in the corner and put in fine aquarium sand (Tahitian Moon Black) and they all park there, looks like a used car lot, all lined up side by side.



Rasboras are great, colorful, nice fish.

[anonapersona]

Somewhere I read that cycling takes 38 days..... you're almost there.

(starting from scratch, I know it can be speeded up in various ways)

[Anne L.]

Anonapersona, I almost started from scratch with this tank. All I had was an ornament from a coworker's tank, so not that much to start with. Guess I'm just getting anxious to see fish swimming around in there.

I have a 10 gallon tank, so 3-4 corys will probably be my limit if I want other fish, right? I'm thinking of putting a couple of types of tetras in there as well. Or should I get a school of all the same type of tetra - would they like it better?

[TKOS]

Yeah, in a 10 gallon stick to 3-4. You don't want to overstock. But don't forget that once a tank is cycled you can fully stock it all at once. Just keep testing for ammonia and nitrites. The reason to fishless cycle is to avoid poisoning the fish but also to build up a full tank load of bacteria.

[anonapersona]

OK, start with 6 rasboras, then add 3 - 4 cories if you can find the tiny ones maybe 6 -- do the research first as they do vary in size from 1 inch to 3 inches. My skunks are under 2 inches, some are smaller, some are larger. PlanetCatfish has the last word in identification, for most general stores don't know for sure.

I'd still add an otto or 3 and a few tiny shrimp and not count them in the bioload.

[Anne L.]

The corys I've seen around here are the peppered corys and albino corys as well as the plain grayish ones. I did see some panda corys but they were really expensive.

The rasboras were fairly pricey as well, and my kids seem to like the tetras. So I think we'll get some tetras for them and add the corys in a week or so just to get used to all of this.

I also saw some otos but the shrimp are almost impossible to find here.

Are the rasboras as easy to care for as tetras? I know platys are easy too but then you have the problem of all the babies.

Nitrites are still holding steady at 1.6 today; added 1 ml ammonia tonight.