Maintaining stable pH and water parameters during water changes

[BagelDog]

I'm getting ready for my first couple discus fish and have one large hang up in my maintenance routine for these fish/my new tank.

I'm new to adjusting water parameters such as pH. When I do water changes what is the safest and most consistent way to keep my pH steady and below 7.0?
My tap water is around 8.0pH.
I'll hold off on purchasing these fish until I can jump this hurdle.

Also, I feel pretty confident in my fish keeping abilities but are there any hidden difficulties when keeping Discus?

[Riiz]

Discus will be fine at 8.0pH, only if you're breeding does pH/tds matter. Keep it simple, you want to be consistent, and anything that makes maintenance harder than it has to be, increases the risk of stressing your fish.

[ponderingky]

:iagree: I raised discus on straight tap water - it was between 7.6 and 7.8 ph out of the tap. They did fine - even w/40% w/c's. Don't start messing w/your ph unless you want to breed them and even then I would try a couple of spawns w/your regular water just to see what happens. Most discus today have lived their entire life in an aquarium - pet stores want to sell you a bunch of stuff that you really don't need. What discus REALLY need is a constant, stable ph, warm water (82 degrees minimum - 84 to 86 preferred) and frequent (at LEAST a couple times a week) water changes. I had very few problems w/my discus when I did these three things. Also - I wouldn't mix them w/a lot of other fish - they are more prone to certain diseases than other fish. The biggest mistake people make w/discus is putting them in a community tank that is too cool and too dirty for them to really do well.

HTH,

[snoopy65]

I agree with the other posters as far as ph goes. I do have a couple of questions for you though. What size tank are you putting them in? The general rule of thumb is 10 gal per adult discus. What size discus are you planning on getting? The smaller the discus the more feedings per day and the more water changes needed to maintain the water quality needed for the discus to grow to it's potential. How many? Unless you are buying a proven breeding pair of discus, it is necessary to buy at least 5, preferably more. This will disperse the aggression that will happen in the tank. As the saying goes, if you buy 3 discus......you will soon only have 1 discus.

[Rbishop]

ditto...no need to adjust the pH in most cases.....but if you do, get a barrel and pre-condition the water for your water changes.

[67chevelle]

ditto x2.., Unless you are doing extremely large water changes,like 90%, adding fresh water to tank water that has had the PH drop a bit should not bother the fish.And even then,the fish should be just fine.

[BagelDog]

Thank you everyone!

Snoopy65- I was planning to house these discus in a 55 gallon planted tank. I was unaware of the rule about 10 gallons per Discus or the rule of 5 discus minimum. I was planning on giving them more room than that but I guess if I'm required to get 5 discus I'll be a little tight on room.

[stephcps]

I agree with snoopy. I have 6 ranging from 3-4.5 inches in a 55 gallon for now. They are fairly agressive fish and pick on each other fairly regularly. With six, I see it dispersed among the youngest/smallest. If there were only a few, one or two would be picked on unmercifully.

I agree with not messing with your PH. I do my water chnages straight from the tap. But, my water is stable. The ph only changes about 0.4 in 24 hours. Some people's tap water changes dramatically within 24 hours. These people either age water for their changes or use RO water.

No offense intended...as I'm new to Discus as well...I recommend a LOT more reading as you will find MANY different opinions and these fish are on the pickier side. Though I must say not as difficult as one hears. Try the SimplyDiscus website/forum. I have found it to be FULL of useful info. I think it will help you alot.

Good Luck!!

[BagelDog]

Stephcps- I'm glad everyone made me aware of the aggressive nature of discus fish. I had no idea. I knew they were cichlids but I figured their temperment would be close to that of German Rams. I'm dealing with a limited amount of data at hand due to the lack of serious fish keepers in Montana.

No offense taken, quite the opposite actually... I understand that I do not have all of the info necessary to properly take care of this fish... but I'm working on that!

[stephcps]

I have truly found a great deal of info on Simplydiscus.com
They even helped me successfully treat my first illness in my group. I just had my first spawn!! Don't have high hopes for ir, but it's pretty cool anyway!!!

[ponderingky]

Simplydiscus is an AWESOME website and the members are very helpful. I read on that site until my eyes bled (well not really but I read all I could). If you follow their advice you will not go wrong. 5 in a 55 is pretty tight - 6 in a 75 just about right. My largest bull was as big as a small dinner plate - beautiful fish. I regret selling them all sometimes - but I have 26 aquariums now w/hundreds of angels and I just added some trios of guppies and 2 pairs of german blue rams. Oh - almost forgot the albino bristlenose pair/babies all over the place. If I ever go back to an aquarium just for fun - discus will be in it. Too much work w/all the other tanks I have.

READ, READ, READ and then READ some more before you get them and you will do fine.

[BagelDog]

After reading up on the SimplyDiscus site I'm feeling a bit uncomfortable about keeping Discus.

Are the rules laid down a guideline or an absolute? Do I have to keep juveniles in a bare bottom tank and do partial water changes daily? The upkeep seems to outweigh the rewards!

I'd be happy to do water changes weekly and would like to keep them in an uncrowded community tank but bare bottom is too much!

[yourchoice]

Discus are best kept with other Discus.Younger ones under 4 inches can easily get sick in communities.Partial daily water changes and plenty of small feedings in a bare bottom they will grow 1 inch every month or two.

[BagelDog]

So you're saying that a single Discus wouldn't be an option either and that I'd have to own my discuss for about a year before I could add it to a tank with a few tetras and sterbai corys. Hmm...

Well, it seems that I just need to save my money for a larger tank and use the 55 gallon for raising my discus to adult size. I do find it odd that discus would have problems in a well established and maintained tank, but what do I know?

When doing such frequent water changes does the tank even have a chance to cycle? No ammonia= no cycle. Not that it matters anyway. Ammonia free water is ammonia free water.

On a side note, will I have a hard time growing live plants in this tank with the frequent water changes and thus a lack of nitrates? You'd think algae would take over the tank.

Again, I'm up for a challenge but it feels like the rewards are slim compared to the difficulty.

[fishorama]

Juveniles are a major time & effort commitment. Adults are less demanding but I think you're wise to think hard about trying them. I spend as much time on the discus tank as my other 7 tanks combined, almost anyway,lol.

Fish excrete ammonia through their gills all the time so biological filtering is needed unless you can do several 100% daily water changes like some asian breeders do. You can do fishless cycling, fish in cycling is hard on any fish but especially young discus. They need to eat a lot to grow well so they need more attention to cleanliness.
Substrate & plants can make it harder to clean. I had a thin layer of sand with my juvies that I removed after only a week or so. Bare is much easier. Plants can trap uneaten food & waste, I have 2 potted plants that I have to vacuum.

Algae can grow but since you'll need to wipe down the tank surfaces to remove the excess slime it's not a separate issue. (yep, another maintenance chore). I plan on low light slow growing plants for adults but I have another year to decide after my babies grow up. I've yet to try a high tech plant tank, 1 high maintenance tank is enough for now.

[stephcps]

It depends really on how old and big your fish are when you get them. I knew I could not do daily water changes. So, I bought larger, older discus from a hobbyist in Boston who had already done most of the work!! They were not exactly what I would have picked if I could have everything I want...but what I could do and afford at the time. I do water changes every other day occassionally every 3 days. They are doing well and have grown for me. I don't plan to breed or show so I don't feel I need to have OPTIMUM growth. I really just wnat some pretty fish that are happy and healthy.
Once your fish are full grown or close once a week water changes if you have good filtration are fine. Lots of people do that. Lots of people also have Discus in a community tank...once they have reached adulthood or close.
Most people who have discus in a community tank have a planted tank. Because at that point the frequent water changes are no longer neccesary.

So,
buy the biggest fish you can afford. Check out the sponsors on the simplydiscus sponsors. Several of them have largefish at fairly affordable prices. Also people (hobbysists)regularly sell their stock for new stock. That is how I got mine.
If you need to grow them out...trust me bare bottom will be best. I resisted this and do have some driftwood and larger stones in my tank. It is really just a pain.
Research the tankmates you plan on having with them once they are big enough to place in a community setting. Not all can withstand the higher temps.

It is a lot of work right now. But, they are interesting and beautiful fish that I am personally in love with!!

I recommend doing a thread search on water changes on simplydiscus. You will see lots of people do different things.

[pinkertd]

Stephcps- I'm glad everyone made me aware of the aggressive nature of discus fish. I had no idea. I knew they were cichlids but I figured their temperment would be close to that of German Rams.

I just wanted to say that this behavior is juvenile behavior. They act like little kids....I'm getting to the food first, you're not....get outta here and go hide in the corner or I'm gonna chase you again.......
Get the idea? Once they reach adulthood, they are very peaceful giants. You'll see a big change in their attitude before they are a year old. With the little ones it's pecking and chasing and big man in town pushing attitudes. They are not out to kill each other or harm any other fish in the tank. As adults you may see some chasing aggression begin in a community tank if spawning is imminent. It's harmless and meant to keep the others away from the spot the male and female have picked. And pretty much the females are the big stinkers at this time.

Don't let all the overwhelming opinions get you down. It is not just discus babies that require frequent feedings of premium foods which in turn necessitates a lot more tank maintenance and water changes. It's all baby fish, it's a commitment if you want to do it right and want the fish to be healthy and reach their full potential. Some fish reach adult size well before others. You never see comments about size differences in other fish like you do with the discus....it's much more noticeable in discus. But there's a lot of hobbyists out there just about starving their baby fish to adulthood. When I was raising CPD fry they were big enough to be shipped by 2 months of age, yet I read on another forum where someone thought they grew terribly slow and still hadn't reached adult size within 6 months.

Read and read and read as much as you can. If you go for the discus, it is much easier to keep sub-adults and adults over juvies. Mine are all adults now and I do one large 75-80% water change weekly. They are in a planted tank and are healthy and beautiful. There is a reward at the end of growing baby fish out! Especially discus. What you see as a juvenile is far from the glorious fish you'll see as an adult.

[BagelDog]

Thanks guys!

I think that may have been the pat on the back I needed to keep me headed toward a discus tank. I do have a 55 gallon bare bottom setup right now. Do you think I could cram in 5-6 juvenile discus in the bare bottom 55g or am I better off establishing the planted tank and putting only one adult discus or a mated pair of discus in there?

The tank cohabitants I had planned on are:
Geophagus Jurupari (2X)
Sterbai Corydoras (6 minimum)
A school of Tetras- Rummynose or other high temp approved fish (10-15X)
And possibly some German Rams (mated pair)

From what I've read, all of these fish seem to agree with the 84ish Fahrenheit temperature. And again, the Rams are kind of an after thought. If the tank looks well stocked I'll leave it just as it sits.

[ponderingky]

Discus are schooling fish - one would be a pretty lonely little fella. I would get 5 or 6 juvies and learn as you go. I am going to throw a bit of a curve ball here but I hate bare bottom tanks so I didn't have my discus in a BB tank. I put pool filter sand in all my tanks and I love it. I had 18 juvies in a 75 gallon (I only wanted 12 but the breeder just kept throwing them in the bags ;)). Several were runts and I lost some but I learned a lot. The info on simply discus is great but you have to decide what you want your tank to look like. I would wait on plants and tank mates until later - just focus on raising the discus and keeping them healthy. I like the pool filter sand because you can see the poo and stuff and just vacuum it off the bottom daily (when you are growing them out). On tank maintenance - I had bristlenose plecos and giant ramshorn snails in w/the discus so I didn't have to wipe the sides very often. I did daily w/c's, frozen BW, frozen BS, Omega One flake, 86 degree water and I had drift wood siliconed to the sides and bottom. If you don't have a python - get one, it will become your best friend. Once mine were established and approaching adulthood - I was able to take some out for pairs and the others (8) stayed in the 75. I did w/c's twice a week - one at about 25% the other at about 40%. As an earlier poster said - they are a lot of work in the beginning BUT they are stunning and worth the effort.

HTH,

[pinkertd]

With a group of 5-6 discus in a 55G tank, you will be pretty well stocked to the limit when the are grown adding only some smaller schooling fish and/or cories. I wasn't familiar with the Geophagus Jurupari, but looks like they get to be 10"? If that's true they are definitely not for that tank with the discus. 6 Sterbai cories would be great for the bottom. But barebottom tanks growing biofilm on the glass eats the cories barbels away. I also think the tank is too small to put a pair of rams in there. Rams are feisty little buggers when breeding and the 55G tank doesn't have a lot of width to it. The rams would have all the discus holed up down at one end of the tank, afraid to move. I've seen them come out and whack the poor unsuspected big discus right on the head for getting too close the the spawning site. Rummynose possibly but more like 8-10.

I don't like the barebottom either....not at all. What I would do is put a thin layer of gravel down, add a pieces of driftwood and a couple of potted plants while they are growing out. The cories could go in without barbel issues. The substrate is thin so is easily cleaned with the python. And as pondering said....concentrate on growing out the discus first.

[Star_Rider]

good info here

read it and digest it. nothing is concrete but much of the information is valuable.

Baby fish Discus or otherwise will generally do best if the water is clean and the food plentiful.

you will find that Discus are actually pretty hardy fish.

[BagelDog]

I guess through all the conversation my intentions may have been muddled. I'll re-state my ideas.

I own a 55 gallon tank and am willing to upgrade to a larger tank when the time is right.
Can I raise 5-6 juvenile discus in the 55g bare bottom until they reach the 4" mark and then transfer them to a larger tank? (Possibly 90g)
Can I purchase a mated pair, instead of the 5-6 discus, and place them in the 55g with substrate, plants and other well chosen tank mates? Do they still require more "socio-discus" interaction than I can provide in my 55g?

I own two juvenile Geophagus Jurupari. I had planned on raising these fish with the (adult) discus. The temperament of these Geophagus is very docile. Will I have problems with these two species cohabiting the same tank?
I've yet to hear of someone raising Geophagus Jurupari and having them exceed 8". I have however seen on many site listings that they can attain 10" in length. Assuming a larger tank was used to allow the discus and geophagus to "grow out", will I have any temper issues with the discus?

It's late and I'm tired... I'll make more sense tomorrow morning.

[pinkertd]

Muddled sometimes happens, I thought I looked through the thread yesterday to see if you had intentions of putting the discus in a larger tank later and didn't see it.....:)


I guess through all the conversation my intentions may have been muddled. I'll re-state my ideas.

I own a 55 gallon tank and am willing to upgrade to a larger tank when the time is right.
Can I raise 5-6 juvenile discus in the 55g bare bottom until they reach the 4" mark and then transfer them to a larger tank? (Possibly 90g)
Absolutely YES!

Can I purchase a mated pair, instead of the 5-6 discus, and place them in the 55g with substrate, plants and other well chosen tank mates?
Absolutely YES!

Do they still require more "socio-discus" interaction than I can provide in my 55g?
Not at all, the pair will be perfectly fine together.

I own two juvenile Geophagus Jurupari. I had planned on raising these fish with the (adult) discus. The temperament of these Geophagus is very docile. Will I have problems with these two species cohabiting the same tank?
I cannot answer this except only with a guess... but if the GJ's enjoy the same foods and water temperatures and don't outcompete the discus for food, I would guess it is possible.

I've yet to hear of someone raising Geophagus Jurupari and having them exceed 8". I have however seen on many site listings that they can attain 10" in length. Assuming a larger tank was used to allow the discus and geophagus to "grow out", will I have any temper issues with the discus?
No temper issues with the discus at all. While they are feisty amongst each other as growing juvies I have never witnessed a discus get feisty with any other fish in the tank no matter the size. And the feistiness is only sibling squabbling. They are extremely, extremely gentle giants.

It's late and I'm tired... I'll make more sense tomorrow morning.
Hope you slept well and your tired eyes are ready for RED type!:thumbsup:

[BagelDog]

I don't know if my eyes are ready for the red type. I had no desire to sleep last night and an overwhelming desire to sleep now that I have eight hours of work ahead of me. Ugh...

After reading your answers I'll elaborate on my questions from last night:
Since the grown discus are such gentle giants do they even need to be a mated pair to occupy the same tank? Would a third discus throw off the peaceful nature of the tank?

I'll research the Geophagus compatibility. I've read of a few people keeping them together. My Geophagus are really well behaved unless they are cramped for space and even then the aggression is only between themselves. My German Ram routinely thumps and chases the Geophagus even though the Geophagus is about three times the size of the ram.

I doubt the Geophagus will out compete the discus for food. Mine are primarily bottom feeders unless the flake food won't sink.

Tell me if I have this correct- Discus are schooling fish and aggressive amongst themselves when being raised but their temperament calms down and they are OK with being in small groups as adults. Right?

What is the lowest temperature that I can keep my discus at and still have them happy and healthy? I currently keep the Geophagus at about 81-82F and they seem to be thriving. I know I'll have to go up from 82F but how much? 84F, 86F?

I think that my smaller Geophagus is convinced he is a clown loach. He spends all day swimming with them. It's pretty funny actually.

[pinkertd]

I don't know if my eyes are ready for the red type. I had no desire to sleep last night and an overwhelming desire to sleep now that I have eight hours of work ahead of me. Ugh...

OK since you are still sleepy I will type in a more soothing color:D

After reading your answers I'll elaborate on my questions from last night:
Since the grown discus are such gentle giants do they even need to be a mated pair to occupy the same tank? Would a third discus throw off the peaceful nature of the tank?

I'll research the Geophagus compatibility. I've read of a few people keeping them together. My Geophagus are really well behaved unless they are cramped for space and even then the aggression is only between themselves. My German Ram routinely thumps and chases the Geophagus even though the Geophagus is about three times the size of the ram.
When I had rams they thumped my disus taking the poor discus by surprise regularly when they were guarding their spawning site. Rams fear nothing! LOL!

I doubt the Geophagus will out compete the discus for food. Mine are primarily bottom feeders unless the flake food won't sink.
Discus will grab food from the water column and also the surface, but then they will spend a long time after feeding grazing the bottom of the tank for the food that drops.

Tell me if I have this correct- Discus are schooling fish and aggressive amongst themselves when being raised but their temperament calms down and they are OK with being in small groups as adults. Right? Yes. Every now and again you will run across an adult who is a life-long bully, no matter what. I had one. Key word HAD. She was so disruptive at feeding time especially that she stressed me and the rest of the discus out all the time. I rehomed her. Peace and tranquility set in immediately upon her departure. Adult discus aren't nearly as worried about being first to the food to grab the most nor to keep part of the tank to themselves as young growing discus are. Even when I have 2 adults spawning in their tank, there's only minor pushing away from the intended spawning object (filter intake).

What is the lowest temperature that I can keep my discus at and still have them happy and healthy? I currently keep the Geophagus at about 81-82F and they seem to be thriving. I know I'll have to go up from 82F but how much? 84F, 86F? Adult discus can be kept at a temperature a bit lower than young discus. 82-84 is ideal.

I think that my smaller Geophagus is convinced he is a clown loach. He spends all day swimming with them. It's pretty funny actually.
That's funny! You've got a lot of activity for that 55 with the Geophagus, the rams, clown loaches and possibly discus. I think you're pushing the limits. And water quality and room are going to become an issue in the future. If that happens, the discus will be the first to show the stress. And if you buy adults, you'll pay a hefty price for them. I'm thinking that your geophagus seem quite similar to severums in size, tank requirements, and temperment. I had 3 severums prior to getting the discus. Bought them as babies. Two eventually paired off and I was forced to rehome the 3rd as it was a male and he was enduring aggressive attacks from the paired male. I had the paired severums in a 72G bowfront tank and felt it was too small for them. When they lip-locked and rocked-and-rolled in there you realized just how big an 8-10 inch fish really was. 55G tanks are only 12" front to back.....just not much room for large fish.

[BagelDog]

Ahhhhh..... Thank you for the soooothing color used.

It's funny when you're sending messages online, it is so easy to omit one key word or phrase and send someone else the wrong message.
I'll elaborate again! :)

I have clown loaches and one geophagus in one tank and a ram and one more geophagus in another. My 55 gallon is bare bottom and has only one betta in it! (How's that for under stocking:D!) I don't plan on keeping loaches, rams or any other fish in the discus tank other than:
Schooling fish (medium sized tetras)
Bottom feeders (geophagus and possibly a few corys)
Cleaning crew (bristlenose pleco)
and Mid level centerpiece fish (discus)

I think that this combination of fish will help disperse the fish nicely and give each species their own section of the tank to call home as well as give the tank a lively look without over crowding.

I am genuinely concerned about the well being of the discus so they are priority number one when it comes to feeding, swimming space and comfort, not only for their sake but to protect my investment in them as well. All aspects of the tank will revolve around their ideal preferences.

I only go on about the space issue because I have overstocked my tanks before but I really enjoy watching a fish who is enjoying life itself. That means taking care of all of the things I listed above.
I'M GOOD TO MY FISH!!! :)

[pinkertd]

Haha, you were scaring me there adding species of fish in your thread you hadn't mentioned before and you are right, how easy for the thread to go downhill with an omitted word.:nono: Just kidding!

What a spoiled betta with an ocean to live in! LOL!

Sounds like your plan will work then!:clap: Carry on and keep us posted with the progress!!

[snoopy65]

This is the thread I have about my juvie discus. As you can see, I have not gone the traditional bare bottom, leave them by themselves route. A lightly planted, thin substrate bottom, community tank can be done....If you make the commitment and have the time to keep it clean. http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=200849

[pinkertd]

Snoop although I read it all before, I enjoyed reading it again!! Ehem......aren't we a little overdue for new pics??

[snoopy65]

I will be posting more today

[ponderingky]

Snoop,

Thanks for showing your discus w/substrate - nice set up! One thing on substrate and the pigeon blood line - dark substrate/background = peppering. If you have PB's make sure that the bottom and back ground is light colored. I have Blue PB's w/a darker gravel bottom at first - all of them began to pepper up - took out the gravel and went w/the light colored pool filter sand - most of the peppering went away. They try to match the tank theme I suppose - blending in with their surroundings. I don't think it matters w/the other lines of discus, just the PB's.

HTH,