View Full Version : Black Moor at bottom of tank
How common is it that a black moor should rest on its nose at the bottom of the tank? I've seen many do it but my children have one that spends too much time down there.
This fish has recently shown signs of constipation which I have been treating (epsom salts and peas)...but this is an old behaviour and the constipation may have had to do with bullying by its tankmate (also a black moor) resulting in a poor diet.
This fish will get about when disturbed and it seems healthy enough (if not a little thin, but I have been feeding flake, sinking pellets, spirulina and peas...and not too much). The fish almost seems depressed.
I put a divider in the tank for them but I didn't notice any change so I removed it.
At a loss.
Pearl
11-16-2009, 11:36 PM
Did you mean to say "old behavior" or "odd behavior"?
I would not feed your black moor with flakes. Flakes add up too much air into their digestive tract. Could you make gel food comprising mostly of vegetable matter and adding acidophilus into the recipe? This may help for now and try to minimize feeding protein-based foods. Your best bet is adding high fiber diet into its menu.
The fish has always behaved this way only instead of picking at the gravel almost constantly, it is now just sitting there...unless I disturb it and it will swim around for a moment. My daughter says she's seen it scratching on the gravel.
I have seen a grey spot on its dorsal. It is not furry but I have begun Melafix all the same. The symptoms still mostly resemble constipation....i.e. what looks like swim bladder issues, as well as lethargy, problems venting (little and stringy).
But yes, it has always liked to sit on its nose.
Lupin: ...Just posted as I was writing this. I'd be willing to try this. I'll search this site to see if I can find a recipe, as I have not done this before.
Do you have a suggestion on how to get the two fish to share? One is twice the size of the other.
EDIT: this one seems to have acidophilus
http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=161051&highlight=gel+recipe
Here's another gel recipe http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30374&highlight=gel+recipe
kelly82
11-17-2009, 1:45 AM
what size tank are they in? i have a black moor in my tank and shes never sitting on the bottom. maybe if your tank is large enough you could find another 3rd goldy to kind take some of the attention off the bullied one. not sure if this would be a good idea or not, and make sure your 1st 2 are healthy before attempting to add another, and quarantine the new one if you do decide to try. good luck.
They have been in a 5g since the beginning. One is 1" and the other is 1.5". They will not stay there, I have a 15g lined up for them, but they will end up in one of my larger tanks eventually. The kids do a 10% w/c two to three times a fortnight. There is furniture and a live plant in there for them.
I like the idea of a third fish but I wouldn't do it yet with the small tank. How long do you think I could grow three of them in a 15g?
Don't add another goldfish for now. If your tank is 40-55g, you could but anything else, I would not unless you wish to do more frequent water changes to compensate the amount of foods they eat.
Try teaching the smaller goldfish to handfeed although if it does not work, a divider will always be an option. I never have trouble though getting all my goldfish ranging from 3 to 10 inches to eat together.:)
kelly82
11-17-2009, 4:23 AM
:headshake2: definately no more fish then, and a very quick upgrade to the 15 i think. i too have no problems with all mine eating together, and they range from 1.5" up to around 7". the brown (i want to say black but shes a chocolate colour) moor is a little slower as she doesnt seem to see the food falling past her but she always gets her fair share by butting the others out of the way.
i would say put in a partition for feeding time and take it out when they have eaten so they have a little more room to swim in between feeds. actually, id just upgrade them to the 15gallon rght away and maybe the problem will go away as they have more room to feed,maybe add food at either end. hope she starts eating soon.
I split the tank and I split a half of a frozen prepackaged vege cube with added fatty acids for them. The small one didn't seem to find it and reminds me of an old blind and deaf dog. It would find it and lose it again. I realise they don't have good vision but I just don't know. The fish would give up and sit, slightly tilted on the gravel, then find the pellet again and seem excited about it.
Fresh green bean, pea and broccoli kitchen scraps are readily found here so I can see us giving them more often.
I have studied the main flake I've been giving (which does claim to be goldfish specific). Reading some of the links I found on this site I learned that the 2% fibre offered is not enough, and is intended this way for a cleaner tank :( It also has soybean meal.
I think I need to find a good packaged food, possibly Hikari, and I'll try to keep it down to half of what I feed them, the rest being fresh or frozen.
and a very quick upgrade to the 15 i think
First I need to move some rock from a 36, then some angels in to it from a 55, then some mollies need to come over to the 55 and the moors can have their 15....I'll get there :nilly:
You could focus his meal mostly on gel foods. Adding Mazuri gel powder to the homemade gel food recipe works wonders and can make up the most of the menu being a complete nutritional diet itself with additional vegetables to compensate for its low fiber content.
That's a handy product. Do you have a preference of formula? I notice the herbivore formula is higher in fibre but the omnivore formula is lower in protien. On the other hand I could just get the standard one and mix in some finely chopped, possibly blanched veges before it sets.
Here's the chart.
http://thegab.org/images/Mazuri070820a.gif
I use the 5M70 since it has sufficient protein needed by young goldfish. For young goldfish, I aim for protein content of 40-60%.
I found this on the bottom of this page http://dataguru.org/misc/aquarium/GelColor.html
I think most flipping is due to bacteria in the GI tract that produce gas. Gas is formed by bacteria in the colon from fermenting starch or sugars. Several of the foods that may contribute to gas are in fish foods (wheat and soy) which are rich in raffinose and stachyose. Raffinose and stachyose are three, and four sugar polymers, and are classified as oligosaccharides. The Oligosaccharides are also present in significant quantities in legume seeds.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but this seems to say that peas make the fish floaty.
With peas high in sugar, there's no denying there.
JoelB
11-18-2009, 12:00 AM
The grey spot I mentioned as being on the dorsal has disappeared, and one has appeared on the tail fin. Now I suspect it isn't fungus but some kind of parasite (not that I've seen one of these before).
I can't seem to take a good shot and these don't do it justice.
It appears to be a round disc and looks like it is hanging off the edge of the tail fin.
P.S. today I picked up some tri-sulfa broad spectrum bacterial disease meds, some praziquantel fluke and worm meds, and some wardley promethyasul bacterial, fungus and parasite treatment. Could I use these?
P.P.S. made some gel food today
Round disc, eh...Not fish lice for sure? Does it scamper if you attempt to pry it off with forceps?
OK, I got a better look at it and I don't think it is anything like a copepod. It isn't smooth but not quite furry...more like the way a food pellet goes once it takes on a little water.
The fish is now resting on its side and more lethargic than before.
I'd get the praziquantel ready, Joel. Here's some info on how prazi can be dosed.
Remove carbon.
Add 2.5 milligrams per liter of water.
If you are using the powdered version, it is difficult to dissolve. Predissolve in tank water by shaking it up in a small container.
Dosing
Day 1 -- remove carbon, perform water change with vacuuming, and add Prazi to tank
Day 2 -- add Prazi
Day 3 -- do nothing
Day 4 -- do nothing
Day 5 -- do nothing
Day 6 -- add Prazi
Day 7 -- add Prazi
Day 8 -- normal partial water change with vacuuming
Day 14 - normal partial water change, then add prazi
Day 21 - normal partial water change, then add prazi
Day 28 - normal partial water change, then add prazi
Day 35 - normal partial water change, add carbon, treatment is complete
Are you sure that's not even a slime coating?
Are you sure that's not even a slime coating?
Not sure but it doesn't look so. It is a fairly specific spot.
I added some tri-sulfa a little earlier. Can I do the prazi at the same time or should I do some w/c first?
I would not advise combining prazi and tri-sulfa. Were you suspecting bacterial infection is involved? What other unusual symptoms have you observed so faraside from lethargic behavior?
No, I wasn't suspecting it just feeling I had to do something quick. I guess I know enough to sense danger here.
No the only symptoms I've noticed are swim bladder issues, poor diet, difficulty/stringy venting, anti-social behaviour and lethargy but now fatigue...as if something is draining the fish.
EDIT: and now what looks like shortness of breath
There's a big risk with using the wrong treatments for something we do not know that is affecting your fish. Switching meds will not do your fish any favor at all and some meds are powerful that they can be draining to some fish. If I were you, until you suspect bacterial infection is involved, I would have just done with the praziquantel first before going over heavy duty antibiotics. Praziquantel is a much milder treatment and can eradicate possible flukes that may be present in your fish. Antibiotics can strain your beneficial bacteria colony so watch your water parameters carefully.
OK so if I read you rightly, the tri-sulfa will cover the same bases as the praziquantel would (except for flukes) and I could continue with it if I check for ammonia but if the fish is suffering I could do some water changes and rethink the prazi?
It's been a few days and the tri-sulfa indicates that it should have worked by now. I still have spots (new ones) on the fish (tail fins), which is still lying on the substrate.
I plan to now try the praziquantel.
Some good news. The black moor is active again and eating well. I guess whatever was bothering it has passed. It has gained some weight.
However, it seems to have both flotation and equilibrium issues. For example it will be happily eating from the substrate but slightly beyond vertically. Then it will level out and move, but fall sideways slightly in the process, as if it were groggy.
I have been feeding it a mix of the gel food I made with the acidopholus, as well as some hikari pellets.