High Ammonia (conflicting advice about ongoing daily water changes) Help?

[jb_lyndon]

About a week ago I posted about high ammonia levels in our new too quickly stocked 25G and got very much appreciated advice from a number of people to do daily water changes to lower the levels until the cycle matures. We have been doing the water changes and we had also inserted ammonia filter media into our AquaClear 200 filter to hopefully reduce the 1.5 mg/l level. We are using Hagen's "Cycle" and "AquaPlus" as directed. After a week the ammonia is still 1.5 mg/l. We're continuing with the water changes.

PLEASE HELP:

My Girlfriend talked to a guy at a 30 year old locally owned family operated Aquarium store (what I mean to say is NOT a Petcetera employee without much [if any] expertise). Apparently he told her to stop doing the daily water changes and to remove the ammonia filter media. Now this is where the conflict arises... my girlfriend wants to believe aquarium store guy's advice and I want to trust the advice given in this forum (as it just seems to make sense).

-we've been lightly cleaning the gravel during water changes (don't know but doubt that this might be slowing down the maturation of the cycle?)

- About the Ammonia filter media? Since the ammonia is still high after a week with the filter in I can't see it inhibiting the cycle since there is plenty of ammonia for the bacteria to "eat". Might the bacteria be targeting the ammonia "stuck" to the ammonia filter and thus not growing properly on the sponge media??? I'm afraid to remove the ammonia filter media as I fear without it the ammonia will rise to a fatal level. Please help with this one.

-and although I've already asked for and accepted the rational advice about daily water changes I promised my girlfriend that I'd specifically inquire for her whether water changes inhibit or slow down the starting up of the cycle. I'm under the impression that the beneficial bacteria mainly clings to surfaces like filter sponge, driftwood, fake plants and gravel rather than just floating around in the water so I can't see 10-20% water changes slowing it down too much.

-oh and is there a prefered filter flow rate for cycling?
25G tank with AquaClear 200 hang-on filter. Flow currently set to medium - medium high.

Sorry for my (our) ignorance but we are feeling quite lost and confused.
Any help? PLEASE???

[Gulp]

I hate to sound like a commercial for this product......but have you tried "Biozyme"? I added this stuff to my aquarium when I was stuck in the cycle and it worked overnight. The box it came in claims its' "Living Nitrifying Bacteria and Enzymes" designed to prevent "new tank syndrome", and has "immediate biological activity". I had very high nitrite levels (but very low ammonia levels) when I added the stuff and the next morning the tank was at the levels I wanted. It has been that way now for 3 straight days and I have finally been able to stop the daily water changes.

I doubt the water changes slow anything down. There really isn't much choice. If you don't do it, the levels get too high for sure.

Try the Biozyme if you can find it. It was only $5 for a container that treats up to 500 gallons. It might be what you need.

[Slappy*McFish]

Rules to live by: if you are cycling with fish, then yes you need to make daily water changes to control the levels of ammonia, otherwise you risk losing your fish. Water changes will have no impact on the cycle, what-so-ever. The fish are constantly producing ammonia...so you don't need to worry about 'starving' your bacteria, but rather keeping your fish alive.

[jb_lyndon]

Thanks, I had all intentions of winning the argument and continuing with daily water changes.

Should I remove the Ammonia Filter Media?? Is it causing problems while cycling? I intended to remove it when the tank has cycled and a nice balance is achieved as to not starve the bacteria, or should I be removing it now????

anyone?

[JSchmidt]

It takes a while for nitrifying bacteria to grow, and high levels of ammonia may actually retard the process. High levels of ammonia will definitely harm your fish (gill burns). Water changes are your best bet to control ammonia until the bacteria reproduce sufficiently. The ammonia-removing media (probably zeolite) probably isn't doing much; you have so much ammonia beyond what your tank can handle, the little bit absorbed by the zeolite is likely inconsequential.

As long as there is ammonia in excess of what the bacteria can eat, they'll reproduce. Time, not the level of excess ammonia, is the limiting factor in their reproduction. Therefore, if you keep ammonia below 1.5 or 1 ppm, you'll be protecting your fish and providing sufficient food for the growing bacterial colony.

Even if keeping ammonia to the lower levels (1-1.5 ppm) did increase the time for a cycle, wouldn't it be worth it? Shouldn't our first priority be to keep our fish as healthy as possible? Allowing ammonia levels to skyrocket certainly doesn't qualify as responsible husbandry in my book.

HTH,
Jim

P.S. With the possible exception of BioSpira, there is little or no systematic evidence that any of the 'bacteria in a bottle' products (e.g., Cycle) do anything except separate you from your money. Water changes are cheaper and more effective...

[jb_lyndon]

Thanks Jim,
and yes I fully and completely agree and had every intention of continuing the daily water changes. I just wanted to clarify as the pet store dude conviced my girlfriend to stop these frequent water changes and told her to remove Ammonia filter media.
I disagreed with him but what the heck do I know?... when pet store dude says something I have to second guess my inexperienced rationality, and unfortunately my girlfriend has an understandable inclination to believe the guy who's been in the aquarium business for 20 years rather than me who's been at it for 1 whole week ;)

Question:
If "Cycle" (bacteria in a bottle) doesn't work, how do you introduce the proper beneficial bacteria to your aquarium?

One more question:
I'm wondering about the behaviour of our 12 neon tetras.
Most of the time they all hang out about an inch or less from the gravel and don't do alot of swimming around (with the exception of feeding time of course). Is this natural? or are they behaving unusually due to the high ammonia???

[JSchmidt]

The bacteria that oxidize ammonia and nitrite are ubiquitous. You cannot stop them from getting into your tank. Seeding (with filter media or gravel from a cycled tank) will speed up the bacterial colonization of your tank, but it's not necessary. There is no evidence whatsoever (that I've seen, anyway) that suggests Cycle contains the bacteria we want to cultivate in our tanks.

Neon tetras are sensitive fish. I can't help but believe they're reacting to the ammonia. These aren't the best fish for cycling, IMHO. I expect you'll lose some (maybe all) before the cycle is complete. I hope I'm wrong...

Jim

[jb_lyndon]

According to Practical FishKeeping:
Total ammonia nitrogen consists of both toxic unionised ammonia NH3 and relatively non-toxic ionised ammonia NH+4. The quantity of toxic unionised ammonia is related to the pH and temperature.

Practical FishKeeping's calculator shows these Ammonia toxicity results for my situation:

The proportion of toxic unionised ammonia (NH3) has been calculated based on the pH and temperature of the water sample. The calculations are based on experimental analyses undertaken by Emerson et al. 1975.

Temperature: 24 °C
pH: 8.0
TAN: 1.5 mg/l
NH3: 0.0753 mg/l
NH4: 1.4247 mg/l

If this is accurate I believe that my problem is far less severe than I had thought. What do you think?

[kveeti]

I'll leave your last question to experts... but about the store employee, I came across a gem of a statement - some, in fact, are so misinformed that they do more damage than good... they are usually people who have been into fish for a long time but have never learned anything useful except mythology, and continue to pass along the bad advice.

This is attributed to "barndog" on Page 2 of RTR's myth thread at Tom's Place
http://boards.aaquaria.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=526&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=myth&start=0

[JSchmidt]

Originally posted by jb_lyndon
According to Practical FishKeeping:
Total ammonia nitrogen consists of both toxic unionised ammonia NH3 and relatively non-toxic ionised ammonia NH+4. The quantity of toxic unionised ammonia is related to the pH and temperature.

Practical FishKeeping's calculator shows these Ammonia toxicity results for my situation:

The proportion of toxic unionised ammonia (NH3) has been calculated based on the pH and temperature of the water sample. The calculations are based on experimental analyses undertaken by Emerson et al. 1975.

Temperature: 24 °C
pH: 8.0
TAN: 1.5 mg/l
NH3: 0.0753 mg/l
NH4: 1.4247 mg/l

If this is accurate I believe that my problem is far less severe than I had thought. What do you think?

If those figures are accurate, I agree with your assessment. At a pH of 8, I'd have expected the opposite relationship between NH3 and NH4. I was under the impression that above neutral pH, the relationship shifted such that the proportion of ammonia that was unionized became greater at a given temperature. Interesting...

Jim

[RTR]

I'm with Jim and Slappy. Keep up the changes to avoid permanent damage or painful deaths for the fish.

Forget the ammonia-sequestering media, water changes are better.

Cycle does contain nitrification bacteria (if fresh enough), just not ones which can and do establish in FW tanks, so to me it is snake oil. It is also the heaviest bioload all by itself of anything I have tested from LFS.

BioSpira does contain FW nitrification bacteria if it is available in your area.

Someday, in the best of all possible worlds, LFS folks will actually know and understand something about the physics, chemistry, physiology, microecology, etc. of fish tanks and their inhabitants. We are unfortunately a long way from that utopia. Much "common knowledge" on fish tanks does not hold water, but propagates mythology. What they do is frequently not actively harmful, just not helpful or best practice. Sometimes the myths are actively harmful and do enrich the LFS.

[Slappy*McFish]

More reading:
http://www.thekrib.com/Chemistry/ammonia-toxicity.html

Quoted from another source: "Ammonia toxicity is significantly influenced by temperature and pH. The lower the temperature and pH the more ammonia can be tolerated.
Lethal ammonia concentrations at a pH of 6.5 are 0.73 ppm, while at pH 8.5 only 0.17 ppm are considered lethal to inhabitants.

A fish tank kept at 68 degrees F can tolerate more than twice the amount of ammonia as a tank kept at 86 degrees F."

Your level of ammonia is definitely toxic to most fish.

[anonapersona]

I suspect that most of the misinformation that we get from store employees comes from the time they spend reading labels on their products.

[TKOS]

Some test kits can also not distinguish bewteen ammonia and ammonium. I can't remember which kits do allow for the difference.

Also does your water contain chloramines? If so then each water change will contain some ammonia as the dechlorinator spearates the chlorine and ammonia and only makes the chlorine harmless.

[jb_lyndon]

Thanks everyone,
oh and tkos no chloramine so that's not the problem.
The ammonia levels are high but stable and not fatal so I'll be patient and wait for the tank to cycle doing frequent water changes to provide some relief for our seemingly inactive neons. I know now that neons are quite sensitive to ammonia so I just hope they can pull through.

The neons behaviour is unusual as they hover near the bottom of the tank and seem to avoid moving with the exception of feeding time. Unfortunately, JSchmidt, I have to agree with you that they must be reacting to the ammonia. If they do however survive the NH3 spike can I expect them to tolerate the Nitrite rise any better or will it be even harder on them?? And if they do survive until the cycle is complete can I expect them to resume the more natural behaviour they exhibited in the LFS??

Keep in mind that:
NH3 - 0.17 ppm at pH 8.5 is lethal to "most" fish.

My ammonia levels are less than half of that with a slightly lower pH:
NH3 - 0.0753 ppm at pH 8.

Who Thinks the little guys will be alright?
Who thinks the are destined for the big aquarium in the sky?

[TKOS]

As long as you keep the water changes up (pretty much daily I guess) then hopefully they will make it. They may also be adjusting to the rather high pH.

[JSchmidt]

I'd be worried about them. Half the lethal dose, even at a bit lower pH, is still pretty hard on sensitive fish. The nitrite spike is harder on them, IME, in part because they've already been weakened from the ammonia burns. You can help prevent the nitrite being taken up by adding a bit of salt to the water... I forget the exact dosage... I think a teaspoon per five gallons is plenty.

Water changes are the best way to protect them, though.

Good luck,
Jim

[jb_lyndon]

So I assume that using salt to reduce nitrites wont inhibit the cycle bacteria from forming?

[Slappy*McFish]

Salt doesn't actually reduce the nitrite level of the water. What it does is reduce the build-up of methaemoglobin in the fishes blood and reduce the toxicity of nitrite accumilation.

Nitrite enters the fish's blood stream via the gills and oxidizes the iron in the haemoglobin..this produces methaemoglobin which prevents the blood from carrying oxygen. This turns the blood brown and causes suffocation and death.

It is actually the chloride in salt that works to relieve nitrite poisoning, and calcium chloride will work just as well as sodium chloride, if not better. Nitrite is much more toxic in low pH/soft water..probably due to the lack of chlorides.

[JSchmidt]

Nice explanation, Slappy!

I don't suppose we could have flash animations showing the chloride outcompeting the nitrate.... ;)

Jim

[Slappy*McFish]

lol..yeah. I'm on a roll and there's no stopping me now!

http://www.jeeps4ever.com/Smilies/Smilies/soapbox.gif
^ This one's for RTR...rofl

:D

[TKOS]

So I assume that KCl would work just as good as well, and give a valuable source of potassium to plants?

Speaking of which, plants sure would help this particular tank of fish, especially fats growing stem plants like water sprite. (I can't remember right now if we have mentioned this already).

[Slappy*McFish]

So I assume that KCl would work just as good as well, and give a valuable source of potassium to plants?

Yes, but I'm not sure you would want to put that much K in your tank. Maybe a combination of chlorides so there isn't too much of one kind.

[Must4ng s4lly]

For ammonia testing in aquariums i have discovered the neatest and most reliable, at least for my tanks, ammonia testers that stay in the tanks via a suction cup on the glass. You can get them at the online pet / fish supply store http://www.drsfostersmith.com. They have really good prices on filter media too!

[RandyD]

I am in the middle of cycling my tank, and have added some plants to help the Nitrate/nitrite. I have a 38gal tank and added 6 Mondo Grass plants. I lost most of my fish (when i initially overstocked the new tank and sorry JB_Lyndon but all 6 of my neons did the same thing yours are doing before they died). Anyway, what i am conscered with now is with only a couple fish left in the take will there be enough CO2 produced to support he plants? Should i make a CO2 generator? How will CO2 affect the PH?
Also - my tank is 4 to 5 weeks old and i dont have any signs of algea yet.....is this good or bad. I am thinking it may have something to do with a lack of CO2. The tank gets about 10 to 12 hrs of light a day.

[RandyD]

I am in the middle of cycling my tank, and have added some plants to help the Nitrate/nitrite. I have a 38gal tank and added 6 Mondo Grass plants. I lost most of my fish (when i initially overstocked the new tank and sorry JB_Lyndon but all 6 of my neons did the same thing yours are doing before they died). Anyway, what i am conscered with now is with only a couple fish left in the take will there be enough CO2 produced to support he plants? Should i make a CO2 generator? How will CO2 affect the PH?
Also - my tank is 4 to 5 weeks old and i dont have any signs of algea yet.....is this good or bad. I am thinking it may have something to do with a lack of CO2. The tank gets about 10 to 12 hrs of light a day.

[jb_lyndon]

Sorry Randy but I don't know enough about live plants and CO2 to give advice :(
I'd like to however inquire about your neons... did they die during the high ammonia stage of cycling?? or later during the Nitrite spike?? Ours have survived the ammonia and now seem to be doing better enduring the nitrites. They're far more active so I hope they survive, recover fully from the toxic exposure and resume their more natural behaviour and exhibit their full potential.

[adblair]

Just a note of hope.... when I first set up my daughter's tank, we didn't know not to overstock and cycle, etc. SO we added serveral types of fish, neons, a silver dollar, platys, mollies - all the same day we filled the tank.... and the NEONS were the only ones to make it. Now a year and a half later, they are still around, and much happier now that we are better informed. Don't give up on them.

[RTR]

Mondo grass is emerse plant, it does not live long submerse.

It seems that plants use ammonia and nitrate, but do not take up nitrite.

[RandyD]

Originally posted by jb_lyndon
Sorry Randy but I don't know enough about live plants and CO2 to give advice :(
I'd like to however inquire about your neons... did they die during the high ammonia stage of cycling?? or later during the Nitrite spike?? Ours have survived the ammonia and now seem to be doing better enduring the nitrites. They're far more active so I hope they survive, recover fully from the toxic exposure and resume their more natural behaviour and exhibit their full potential.

Mine died during the Nitrite spike. We loast everyting except for one Zebra Danio.

[RandyD]

Originally posted by RTR
Mondo grass is emerse plant, it does not live long submerse.

It seems that plants use ammonia and nitrate, but do not take up nitrite.

THAT is something they didn't bother to mention at the pet store.
What should i do?