Borneman Article

[mogurnda]

In the newest issue of ReefKeeping (http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-01/eb/index.htm) online, there is an article by Eric Borneman about various myths in reefing. Of particular interest to me was his discussion of the maturation of a reef tank (myth 15). There's more to getting a tank up and running than just the nitrogen cycle.

[Cearbhaill]

I was reading a thread over on RC titled "Maturity issues" (http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=249112) where he discusses the same thing. It is so convincing that I am putting in my Tampa Bay package tomorrow and just letting it simmer for 6 months or so before I add anything much.

That's my plan anyway- hope I stay strong at the LFS when I see those fish!

[mogurnda]

I didn't add any corals to my TBS rock for almost a year. The stuff on it was so interesting, I didn't need to!

[K9Decoy]

Basically, when is the soonest, safest time to add corals to a formerly FOWLR tank? 2months? 6months? a year?

[slipknottin]

Maybe its just me, but Eric comes across as an arrogant SOB alot of the time. He comes across as pretending to know everything.

" However, it is untrue. Even the name is inaccurate… the prefix "micro" would refer to bubbles too small to see."

Yea, thats why the definition of micro is 'small'.. :o


Anyways, reefers in Europe wait a year or so before adding any corals to their tanks. Americans usually are too impatient. (im one of them. :p )

[VoodooChild]

I totally agree with you Slip. Though Borneman does seem to know his stuff, I'm always wary of people that do "scientific research" and then post it on hobbyist sites. I don't think enough people know what goes into research and that some of the stuff may be fabricated at the worst or perhaps the results are slightly skewed. Not to say the man doesn't know his stuff and that his papers aren't true, they more than likely are. I just think people need to remember one study doesn't equal truth. Shimek, in my opinion, is really big on himself and is really one to push his results as truth. I did find the article interesting though, particularely the crest reef discussion.

[mogurnda]

Yeah, I have to agree that there is a problem when people try to dispel "myths" by using fairly sloppy information. Shimek does it all the time. One reason I tend to listen to Borneman is because he is clearly very successful at keeping and propogating corals.

I think that one of the biggest myths of this whole hobby is that there is more science than art to it.

[DEmigh]

Originally posted by mogurnda
[...]I think that one of the biggest myths of this whole hobby is that there is more science than art to it.

Yes! The science is how I keep the fish (plants, inverts, rocks, etc.) alive and well, but the art is why I do it in the first place.

[slipknottin]

Originally posted by mogurnda
One reason I tend to listen to Borneman is because he is clearly very successful at keeping and propogating corals.


Thats why my favorite person to listen to is Anthony Calfo. Neither Ron nor Borneman have anywhere near the experience he does, about the only other person thats active on the web is Fenner.

Neither one of them has a snotty attitude like Ron and Eric either...

[mogurnda]

I haven't paid much attention to Anthony Calfo. Not for any particular reason. Will have to remedy that.

I totally agree with how ludicrous his discussion of "micro" bubbles was. Made me wonder if there was some holy definition of micro-, nano- and femtobubbles.

[RothChyld]

I agree with all of your comments. Not so much on these particular articles but more generalized I don't think salt water aquaria can be a science since it is relatively new and so much to find out. For anyone to say they are an expert then perhaps they need to come help me with my tank. You can have 2 fish species or corals that are identical in breed but have 2 different likings or behavior.

I often post replies on this message board and they are solely from personal experience. I hope everyone realizes that and a lot of this hobby is trial and error. We can only try what has worked majority of the time. I have only been in this hobby 4 years and there is so much more to find out.

As always if I am wrong I expect someone to correct me. :D

RothChyld

[redpaulhus]

Originally posted by mogurnda
I haven't paid much attention to Anthony Calfo. Not for any particular reason. Will have to remedy that.



If you get a chance, definately check out both his Coral Propagation book and his Natural Aquarium series with Fenner.

When I read Nat Aquarium vol 1 (inverts) I thought the sense of humor was mostly Fenners - then I got the Coral Prop book, and Calfo had me in stitches... definately a good read...

Speaking of propagation - Slip, did you end up propagating corals ? I think I remember you saying something about planning a greenhouse, and I don't think your more than a few hours drive from me here in Mass...

[slipknottin]

blah no, cant find a place to setup a decent sized greenhouse. Id be broke before I even started with property prices around here. :rolleyes:


I suppose it will have to wait until I move south and have a large enough yard to put in a greenhouse. It WILL happen though. Just a matter of time.

[VoodooChild]

Now, when you say greenhouse, do you mean like conventional greenhouse with assorted flora, or will you totally revolutionize home-aquaria and make a shallow bed of water with ample sunlight for alot of corals. It might not look as cool from above, but hey...

[mogurnda]

You know, they tried something like that in BioSphere II in AZ. It failed miserably, but it seems like it should work. I wonder how they screwed things up so badly.

[VoodooChild]

Algae growth was too great so it choked up all of the corals and only the hardiest survived. The whole project itself failed because they didn't account for the amount of oxygen the bacteria used, or at least didn't account for it enough. We had a speaker once for a class that worked on it and he said the project was also very poorly managed. Huh...worked in Bio-Dome. If Pauly Shore can do it, anyone can!:rolleyes:

[mogurnda]

Actually went there a few times, after all the fuss died down. It sounds like there was some seriously bad behavior on all sides.

I wasn't keeping corals at the time, so the reasons for the failure of the reef didn't stick in my brain. All I remember was a few pathetic corals and some very fat tangs.

[BrianH]

Greenhouse (http://www.reefland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6763&page=1&pp=20) Heres' a link to a green house that has been up and running for over a year now.

Brian

[Orion]

Originally posted by slipknottin
Maybe its just me, but Eric comes across as an arrogant SOB alot of the time. He comes across as pretending to know everything.

......
I know Eric in person. He is really nice and is a person that really goes out of his way to help people. He has being very active in various BB and e-mail group for a long time, 10+ years. One get tired of being asked the same thing day after day once one being at as long as he have.
Eric has being an aquarist and a diver first for many, many years, before enroll in his Doctorate program at the University of Houston.

Many reefers would do very well it they listen to him. He certainly is an expert in Coral, both in keeping them and their pathology.

[mogurnda]

Yeah, I've heard that he is a very nice, enthusiastic guy in person. Part of the problem is that one attracts criticism whenever one sets onself up as an "expert." Then people have extremely high expectations for you, both in terms of knowledge and personality.

By the way, Orion, welcome to AC. You sound like an experienced reefer.

[slipknottin]

Originally posted by Orion

One get tired of being asked the same thing day after day once one being at as long as he have.

I asked him a question once that was never asked before, instead of actually explaining why it wouldnt work he just came back with snappy comments like " Thats stupid, or that wont work" What a great help that was.

[Orion]

Originally posted by slipknottin


I asked him a question once that was never asked before, instead of actually explaining why it wouldnt work he just came back with snappy comments like " Thats stupid, or that wont work" What a great help that was.

How do you know that he was not asked that question before?

Anyway, he was never rude to me. I used to asked him lots of question back in the late 90's. The most he would do is ask me to do a search because that particular question come up very often before. I have never seen him being rude to anybody on the mailing list or BB. I have not go to his forum lately.

Do you have any specific real example?


Minh

[racerX]

Just an FYI but hasn't this turned into general chit chat? lol sorry just kinda tired of thinking there was a new post with some good info in the reef keepers and finding this. Ok ill stop now you can slap me when you want to but i couldn't help it. I really don't care if this is here or anywhere I just like to read about anything on here. :D :D :D but one real question is who really knows anything for certin about what will work and what won't without setting up an experiment with all the goodies like a control group and what not. I mean if you want to be honest its all hearsay and experience. What worked for some may not work for others. And as far as snappy answers from this guy maybe he was having a bad day??? I have them and sometimes i don't really channel that energy in the right direction. Just my two cents, Ill go now. lol

Shane

[Orion]

Of course this is chit chat. How else would one comunicate. This thread is about the article by Eric Borneman. Discusing about the author is fair game and on topic.

[racerX]

I was joking, note the general chit chat matching the other heading that can be posted under called "GENERAL CHIT CHAT" but never mind i guess the laughter in my voice and the sarcasim got lost because I am writing this and not talking. Sorry for the confusion.

[Orion]

:o :o :o

[slipknottin]

Originally posted by Orion


How do you know that he was not asked that question before?



because he said "ive never heard that before" :p

Maybe he was just having a bad day. Dr. Ron has been nice to me whenever Ive talked to him, but I know hes been a pain in the butt to others at times.