stupid question about gravel vacuuming

[Nahualli]

when I do my weekly water change I normally remove all ornaments and the non-rooted plants, putting them in a bucket of tank water and then I let my Python rip and I vacuum the gravel. I have these other plants tho with long stems and very broad leaves I got at the LFS that were part of a "grow your own aquarium plants" kit.. just a bunch of dry seed pods, really.

At any rate.. the other day I was doing a more extensive water change because I've been battling ammonia problems and I decided to take out everything from the tank.. well as I was pulling out these broad-lefed plants I realized they had thrown down roots .. I felt bad all of a sudden like I would be harming them by taking them out.

So my stupid question is : I guess I qualify as having a planted aquarium... when you vacuum the gravel do you just vacuum around the plants or do you tear the plants out and replant them afterwards?

By the way I heard someone talking about tying lead weights down to your plants and cucumber slices to weigh them down.. I got something at PetCo that are these very flexible extremely heavy pieces of .. wire I guess. It's a thin metal wand about 2 inches long that is very flexible and weighs a lot. You just tie it around the base of your plant and it drags them down.. it weighs about as much as a quarter. It's great for plants like this one I have that grows very tall.. every so often one of the stalks will break off so I weigh it down and let it grow on it's own.. I have a nice little hedge going because of this.

-Nah-

[Grassguy]

Personally, I only vacuum where there are no plants. I like to leave a little waste in the gravel for the plants to use, it acts a little like a fertilizer. That doesn't mean not to use fertilizer, but I seem to be able to use less than what I have heard I should be using and I have an Amazon sword control problem in my tank.

[TKOS]

Since you have plants with roots I wouldn't go about vacuuming up all the good mulm and what not that resides in the gravel. This is plant food. I just remove water and potentially some dirt on the surface of the gravel. No need to remove any plants, that will just upset them and for rooted plants may mean breaking them.

That is a lead weight you are using. I never agree with using lead as it is a toxin and could potentially harm your fish if it builds up enough. Not to mention that people should be handling base lead anyway as it readily absorbs through your skin. If you have the right amount of gravel then your plants should stay done easily.

[OrionGirl]

I agree with TKOS, with one exception. If you have a UGF, you must vaccum. This is one of the reasons UGF and plants don't mix well.

[Anne L.]

Now this really is a dumb question.

When you are siphoning your gravel to get the muck out, what do you do with the fish? Do they just stay out of the way - I guess I'm worried that I'll suck one up by accident and hurt it.

See, I told you it was dumb!:rolleyes:

[OrionGirl]

It's actually not a stupid question at all. I watch my fish, and make sure they don't get sucked up. Some will duck out of the way (all my tetras, gouramies, and plecos), while other will trail around checking out what floats up (barbs, cories, kuhli loaches) and some are bound and determined to get sucked up, despite my cautions (puffers!, and shrimp).

This is one of the reasons I siphon into a bucket--much easier to rescue from the bucket than halfway down the hose, or the sink!

[Leopardess]

LOL . I agree with oriongirl - totally not a dumb question:) You've just to keep an eye out. I've sucked up shrimp (boy they look funny when you do it - legs all out, swirling about), somehow I also sucked up a full grown dwarf gourami, a very small cory...and I think that's it. But, I also syphon into a 5g bucket - Just in case. Though I've never had one make it that far yet, I usually notice them on their way up the tube - plus, my syphon is one of those selfstarting ones so it has only a very small opening at the end of the syphon tube.

The funny thing is watching the fish try to eat whats being sucked up...through the tube lol.

[Anne L.]

Thanks, OrionGirl. I just felt dumb asking that question, but I already thought of the idea of using a bucket, just in case somebody does get too curious.

Still waiting for nitrites to drop so I can add my fish................

[Oakley]

sorry i have a question too,
the bunched plants that my lfs sells have some metal wraped around the base with a piece of some kind of material.
i am guessing that the metal may be lead as it is flexible

so what is the right thing todo? do i unwrap the bunched plants and plant them in the sand without the metal, or do i just plant them as they are?

Thing is, after reading that the potted plants are potted with a rooting agent that is "suspect" for the fishes health, i have been staying away from them and buying the bunched plants with the weights as described above.

If the lead contaminates the water, would it stay at the bottom of the tank as its a heavy metal or would it curculate around the tank and harm the fish?

i have tried to find this info in other places and in all the books that i have but no one mentions anything other than the potted plants thing.

Any help with these questions would be greatly apreciated :)

[TKOS]

Personally I remove this and do so carefully and make sure to wash my hands afterwards. Lead is very toxic to all living things and lead absorbed by humans takes upwards of 50 years to be eliminated totally from the human body. Plus you want the roots to be free so they have room to grow.

[Handyman]

You are probably over maintaining your tank unless it is a very small one. Weekly water changes and vaccuming is probably why you are having ammonia problems.
How big Is your tank? How many Fish and what size? What type of filteration? Do you use a water conditioner in the new water? Water conditioner removes chloramine from tap water. Note: chloramine does not evaporate from water over time. Most minicipalities use chloramine (Chlorine and ammonia) to stearilize city or town water these days.
The ammonia problem is the worst thing that can happen short of a broken tank. It will kill your fish.
Over maintaining a tank upsets the UGF biological filter development in the gravel. Chloramine kills the bacteria and will harm the fish. the bacteria removes the ammonia by converting it to nitrite and then to nitrate. Nitrate is of course good for your plants.

[RTR]

Weekly water changes and vacuuming (of non-planted tanks) is NOT too much. That is a totally false and detrimenal myth that need to be put to rest permanently. Routine and thourogh vacuuming of UG/RFUG guarantees that the bacteria required will stay where they belong - on the gravel - and not be forced by suffocation to migrate into the mulm, where they would be subject to removal by infrequently done vacuuming. That is the sort of thing that ruins the reputation of UG/RFUG filters, through blind ignorance of how they should be maintained.

BTW, daily water changes are not too much either, but not many folks other than breeders do such.

[Matak]

How thorough is thorough? If a RFUGF gravel bed is 2" deep, how deep should the average disturbance depth be? I currently go down about 1/2" to 3/4" deep.

[Prometheus]

Originally posted by Matak
How thorough is thorough? If a RFUGF gravel bed is 2" deep, how deep should the average disturbance depth be? I currently go down about 1/2" to 3/4" deep.

On my regular UGF I go until I reach the UGF itself. Every water change (which is 3-4 times a month, I wind up missing about every 3rd or forth week... I either forget or have too much going on to get to it when I remember)...

I notice that by bottoming out the gravel vac. and holding it down for a second I also suck up a bunch of extra crap that comes from underneath my UGF... I can prove it because I can get underneath my tank stand and shine a flash light up and see it's clearer afterwards (like brand new) vs. 2 weeks of no vacumming when I see a slight haze / muck developing... I would love to see it after 4 weeks... but I'm not that brave ;)

Because I vacumm so 'heavily' I only cover about 3/4 of the tank when I do a 25% water change... So I alternante sides, this week I'll work left to right, next week right to left...

When I miss a change, I'll do 30% the next week and wind up getting it all... I just hate lugging that 1 extra bucket outside ;)

[RTR]

I agree with Prometheus. When you vacuum, vacuum - full depth, and if possible full tank. If you cannot do full tank, mark mentally or physically where you stopped and catch it next time; but what you do, do fully.

All my UGs are RFUG now, and vacuuming is so much easier there, as all the debris is in the prefilter, basically nothing under the plates and almost nothing in the gravel. It is no hassle to cover the tank. The prefilter rinse (tap water is fine - no biofiltration is required for the prefilter) dumps the dirt.

[Slappy*McFish]

RTR, do you vacuum your non-ugf planted tanks? Assuming you have any. I never touch the gravel in my planted tanks unless I'm doing some major rearranging or maintenance. Of course, I very rarely disturb/move my 'rooted' plants(rubin sword, crypts) so their root systems are very well developed and when looked at from under the tank, through the bottom glass, they practically span the entire tank floor.

[anonapersona]

I do not vacuum the gravel at all in my planted tanks.

I wave my fingers over the gravel to fluff up any loose stuff and then siphon it away.

When you buy potted plants, jut pick off all the rock wool that is in the roots, plant them bare-rooted.

I strongly suggest rooted plants, much less work to maintain them compared to stem plants.

[Must4ng s4lly]

I fully vacuum all my planted tanks fully every two to three weeks and then replant. My plants are healthy & vigorous. this gets rid of any dead roots, plant matter etc.... The fish of course go after all the stuff that flies up, but i am very careful with the Python and if I think I have gotten a fish, I have my finger on the shutoff valve and can react very quicky. I have not lost one yet! ;). I have gotten a few, but shut it off before they get in the hose part of the Python.....

[RTR]

My non-UGF planted tanks are handled pretty much as anonapersona detailed. A mature substrate is quite valuable to rooted plants; unneeded disturbance is counter-productive. The biochemistry of an undistrurbed substrate is highly beneficial to rooted plants and is in part controlled by them.

That said, I do follow Karen Randall's suggestion of periodic cleaning of the substrate, every 1-3 years depending on the plants growing in a particular area, to thin over-crowded plant stand and to remove excess organics building up. My conventional planted tanks, like all my tanks, are set for 10-year projected lifespan, so some substrate work is needed periodically. I don't yet have any feeling for the lifespan of RFUG planted tanks, but my handling will be similar to the conventional setups. I recently cleared some overgrown areas in the first RFUG trial tank, and I did deep vacuum before replanting - so other than substrate fertilization (not done for RFUG), I'm handling those like my conventional planted tanks.

HTH