battling algae, the kent freshwater product paradigm. + pics

[resk]

I recently bought an RO filter for my planted tank, and now use the following kent products exclusively.

RO right
freshwater essential
freshwater plant

The tank uses high tech c02, at 15ppm, kH is kept at 5dkh to obtain a neutral ph.

Currently, I replace 5 gallons of this 37g tank with this fresh water on a weekly basis.

I am currently battling green hair algae, and also a dirty looking algae which grows mostly on the plants near the gravel.

Both forms of this algae are growing relatively slowly.
I noticed my phosphate level was 0, so have switched over to a flake food which contains '.25-1.0' phosphorous.

Am I on the right track ?
What should I do in addition to the above, in order to beat this algae growth ?

Pictures show current conditions:
http://www.neverwill.net/photos/2003-12/img_1066.jpg
http://www.neverwill.net/photos/2003-12/img_1106.jpg
http://www.neverwill.net/photos/2003-12/img_1080.jpg

[djlen]

Up your CO2 to 25 - 30 ppm and up you water change to 35 - 50% weekly.
You need to keep the PO4 between .50 and 1 and N between 5 and 10 along with the above to keep the plants growing properly.
That will discourage algae growth.
BTW, the tank looks really nice......keep up the good work!!


Len

[resk]

is it difficult to keep po4 levels correct and stable through feeding with foods which contain it ?

[Slappy*McFish]

I wouldn't rely on food as your source of Phosphorus. You would do well to dose Potassium Phosphate (KH2PO4). Mix 75g of KH2PO4 with 500ml of water to form a stock solution. 1ml of this solution added to your tank(37g) weekly, will give you .75ppm of PO4.

[plantbrain]

What is the GH and KH of your Tap water?

Regards,
Tom Barr

[resk]

4 dGH
3 dKH

[plantbrain]

Why did you buy RO silly?
That's perfect tap water.
Well, the RO water does taste good, that's what mine is for.
Why remove something then add it back?
Don't use the RO water for water changes.
All you are doing is making more work and hassle for your self.

You are not going to gain anything from this.

As far as you tanks/set up etc, I'd suggest buying a couple of things: stump remover=> KNO3. And some Fleet enema(sodium Phosphate) or if you are too shy, KH2PO4 from www.litemanu.com.

You have the traces from Kent already.

If you do large frequent water changes, say 50% weekly, you will remove any excesses that can occur in this tank. If you dose after the water changes, and 1-2x more during the week, you will not run out of any nutrient.

If you tell me how big the tank is, I can tell you pretty much what to add and the frequency.

A typical 20 gal with high light/CO2:
50% weekly water change
After the water change I'll add:

1/4 teaspoon of KNO3 powder
5mls of trace
Rice grain or two's worth of KH2PO4 or one-two drops of Fleet

Repeat after 3 days and then again 1-2 days fbefore the next water change.

Higher light tanks will get this about 3x a week, lower light tanks, around 2x a week and low light tanks2w/gal or less, weekly after the water change only.

This is very easy to do and keeps the nutrients in very good ranges.

The pH is the only thing folks need to test for often to make sure of their CO2 levels.

Now CO2: add tap water from now on, use only the CO2 ghas to lower the pH to 6.5 and keep it there the whole time the lights are on(am to pm).

Shoot for 20-30ppm of CO2. Error on the high side as a general rule, most all fish are fine with this.

You do this, and the algae will not keep bugging you. The plant health will greatly improve.

But you need to remove the algae that's there now, then prune good to get it all off, then add some algae eaters, Amano shrimps(lots) are good. Then you correct the conditions with water changes and the above routine.


Regards,
Tom Barr

[resk]

the tank is 37g

PH from tap water here is 8.0-8.3

i thought that i needed to mix RO to match my tank PH of 7.0 during water changes

last question:

siphoning 50% new water in with airline tubing

is that slow enough flow to accomadate the 1.5-2.5 PH difference ?

[plantbrain]

If you use CO2, using the tap water added directly to the tank is fine when doing 50% water changes.
Folks been doing that and using CO2 for years.
Temp should be close though with tank water.

I use a 2" siphon to drain my 75 gal in about 1-2 minutes and then refill with tap water right away, the CO2 quickly reduces the pH and the fish have never had anything but good things to say about it.

Many others will mirror this observation with large water changes and CO2.

For your 37 gal tank:
Adding 1/4 teaspoon of KNO3 will add about 6.5ppm of NO3 and 4ppm of K per dose.
With high light, good CO2, the NO3 will be removed in about 2 days.

So you'd need to add this 3x a week along with the PO4(1-2 drops) and traces(about 7mls).
50% water change, (prune/clean before the water change).

You can also add a mega dose about 12-24 hours before you do the water change, add 2x the amount and then remove the excess after the plants have their fill and then dop a 50-70% water change(wait a day to dose again).

Some Discus folks do 2 water changes a week 50% or so and dose right after.

The above routine is simple and will work extremely well if you keep the CO2 at 20-30ppm during the day.

CO2 and NO3 are the biggest players in all this, K+, traces, PO4 are less important players. Check things in this order=> CO2>CO2 again>NO3>K+>Traces>PO4.
Water change and re set the tank if you are unsure or over dose the tank with KNO3 etc.

If you know the weight of the chemiocal you are adding and know the tank volume, you can know precisely how much is in there, better than the test kits.

This is how they make reference solutions that calibrate test kits. Using large frequent water changes and dosing afterwards, you can reap the same benefits without testing for PO4/K/Traces/NO3 all of which can cost a fair amount and take a lot of time and often will be incorrect sending you off down a wild goose chase.

While it does take some time to do a water change with tap, it doesn';t really take that much time if you use a good water change method, like Python etc or garden hose and a large siphon running to the drain etc.

Some use PVC and hook it up direct to the water supply in the house for real easy fast water changes, 90 gal of water in about 2-3 minutes.

Regards,
Tom Barr

[djlen]

Here's one of those 'mirror' observations Tom is talking about.
I have a 40 gal.(actually closer to 37) and can siphon 50 - 60% of the water out and refill with a python in less than 15 mins. with no problem for the fish. The difference in ph, tap to tank, is 1.1 pt., from 7.5 to 6.4.
The fish are fine with this, in fact showing their best color and most activity during and just after the change.
Important, as Tom says to keep the temp within a few degrees(tap/tank) and use Tap Water Conditioner that will remove Chloramine(most important) and Chlorine while in process.

Len

[resk]

thanks all, that is great information! (and a relief)

now i can save money on my fish maintenance,

and just use the RO for drinking purposes ;]

i will post new pics when everything has payed off.

[Slappy*McFish]

Mr. Barr knows his business. Newbies(and even vets) in these forums are fortunate to be receiving this free advice. I wish I had of when I 1st got started in plant tanks years ago. Tom and many others on this board(and a few other boards) have been instrumental in the knowledge I've gained just the past couple of years that I started using forums as a source of info...and I've been in the hobby for about 20 yrs...that says alot.

[Godslayer]

A few things...

I have been following the Barr regimen for a long time and have had beautiful results. He knows his stuff, trust him.

I change 50% water every week, return it with a bucket and don't use anything to remove chlorine/chloramine. My fish have never noticed.

Like Tom says, keep the CO2 up (most important) and keep up on ferts and you will have spectacular growth and little to no algae.

One of your biggest problems, IMO is a lack of fast growing stem plants to suck up nutrients. I see mostly slow growers which are also heavy root feeders and remove only modest amounts of nutrients from the water column. Pack it with a significant amount of stem plants and follow Tom's routine and you will be all set. Keep in mind it will take awhile to clear up because you have a pretty bad infestation.

[plantbrain]

Give it an honest try for 3 weeks, that is long enough to tell if you are on the right track and I have always been able to beat back the algae issues in that amount of time.

Regards,
Tom Barr

[resk]

wait a second,

you are saying you don't use anything to remove the chlorine in your tap at water changes?

i put 1 teaspoon amquel and novaqua every 5 gallons every time i do water changes

i have a system similar to python which hooks to the faucet, but i started using buckets

from your description it sounds like you just pump the tap water straight into the tank without treating ?

[Timmain42]

Originally posted by plantbrain
Give it an honest try for 3 weeks, that is long enough to tell if you are on the right track and I have always been able to beat back the algae issues in that amount of time.

Regards,
Tom Barr

Hear, hear. I gave the Barr Routine a month to get my big tank looking better back in 2003, and I've not looked back since.

[Godslayer]

Yes, I pour it in with a bucket. No, I do not treat with anything. I know quite a few people who don't treat. Chlorine quickly outgases and the fish don't have any problems within the short time it takes to do so. Even with large WC's (50-80%) I have never had problems with my untreated tapwater.

[resk]

that is heavy

[plantbrain]

Use Amquel or Prime for dechloinator.
That's all you'll need besides the nutrients, maybe some GH/KH.
Regards,
Tom Barr

[Timmain42]

Originally posted by Godslayer
Yes, I pour it in with a bucket...

Buy a PYTHON. Please. Save your back.

[Godslayer]

I use the bucket on my 10G. It's only 1 drain/refill so I'm only lifting the bucket twice. If I couldn't lift a 5G bucket twice I would join a health club. When I finish setting up my 40G breeder that will most certainly involve a python.

[resk]

i guess i will continue to treat the tap water with conditioners before it goes into the tank

it is kind of fun with buckets, the fish might be more appreciative when they see what im doing ;]

[Bob Hooper]

How does everyone put the conditioners in their tank when doing large water changes using a python or garden hoses? Do you just add it to the water thats left in the tank before refilling?
Thanks,
Hoop

[Tempest]

Bob- I just put it in the tank when I'm ready to refill. I used to be picky and put it in a little at a time but it doesn't seem to make much difference.

[plantbrain]

I add the dechlorinator after I'vge drained the tank and start to refill.

Temp is the only thing to worry about when adding new water.

Regards,
Tom Barr

[resk]

this water change information is a revelation

now i know i can use the python for replacing straight into the tank, then adding conditioner

[plantbrain]

You are going to be quite happy now.
Water changes should be set up to be easy as possible.

SW unfortunately still needs mixed up etc before hand.

But that roof mounted mixing basin will be nice one day:)

Regards,
Tom Barr

[resk]

ive been testing my no3 and po4 in the tap

50% changes once a week
co2 is at 25-30ppm

dosing:

k2so4 once a week for 20ppm
kno3 2-3 times a week for 5ppm
kh2po4 2-3 times a week for .5ppm
1tsp kent 'freshwater' plant 2-3 times a week

the first thing i noticed was plant growth, some of my plants got so big they covered the surface of the tank and blocked the light

i cut these back and i might remove them completely

the second i noticed was that after 3 days the algae started to return, at a slower rate, but this was unexpected.

this time ive got different algae types than before

the only thing i can think is happening is over fertilization ?

i have a 38g tank, so i made the assumption of 32g for the purposes of measuring doses.. could that be it ?

i also didn't physically remove every bit of algae, the tank was clean but there was a little bit left on the back glass and around the filter etc.. could that be it?

my plan right now is to find out exactly how much water is in the tank now, do 50% every 3 days, and dose.

thoughts ?

[djlen]

The numbers you report sound good. Not seeing your tank, it's difficult to figure out how much of a problem you have. What might be considered a bad algae problem to you, might be acceptable to others. No tank is going to be algae free.
How heavy is your plant load? And your fish load? These are subjective questions, I know, but try to give us an idea of what you have in there.
Are your plants using the N during the week? This is a good indicator as to how the plants are growing, and should be checked at mid-week before adding more.
If they are not using it, try to bump up the P closer to 1.0ppm. You will probably see an increase in the N usage this way.

Len

[promethean_sprk]

At least in my experience I've found that the more plants are growing in a tank, the less algae you'll find. I have a 20g that is wall to wall folliage and it's hard to find any algae in it, w/o co2 or appreciable fertilization (I let old leaves compost). I've noticed that after a major pruning or aquascaping change the plant load is reduced and algae will grow better for a few days until the plants are back up to the strength needed for balance.

[plantbrain]

More plants=better.

Some algae is okay, you likely have softer green glass algae.
If you clean real good, remove all the detritus, the algae on all the equipment etc, then do a large water change(you can do more than 50%) you should fine afterwards as long as you keep up on the rotuine.

You can do 2x a week water changes also to whip a tank into shape and this helps but is more work. It will get a tank cleaned up faster if you have the motivation, also fluffing the plants good and using a fine mesh net to remove any large detrital particles/leaves etc will help, careful inspection of pruned plants, remove all traces of algae.

When you remove the algae from the glass, have the filter turned off and vacuum the surface of the gravel lightly to suck up this algae that you just removed and do it within 5 minutes of scaping, these little algae will reattach after an hour or so if not removed, UV, micro, diatom filtration can help leftovers.

I have a cheap 9 3/4" cartifilter I use with a 1-5micron cartiage and run it for about 12hrs after in bad algae cases, a UV can also be used if desired but these things do not need to be ran for more than 24 hours after the the water change.


Regards,
Tom Barr

[djlen]

resk
In answer to your PM, I suggest that you get an Aquarium Pharmaceuticals NO3 test kit which measures the PPM in gradations from 0ppm-5ppm-10ppm and up. This will give you a better idea of what you are dealing with. A test kit which starts at 10ppm is not going to give you the information you'll need because you need to see small drops in content to know what the plants are using during the week.

It would be a great help to see some pictures, but as Tom says above it sounds like you're dealing mostly with glass algae and his suggestions will clean it up nicely for you.

As I understand it from the PM, you only have two plants in the tank......a Banana plant and what sounds like an Aponogeton.
Correct me if I'm mistaken, but that seemed like all that you have in the tank. And if that's the case.....that's one of your problems.
Correct me again, but if I remember, you have quite a bit of light over the tank and with a lot of light you need a lot of plants.
You report great growth and no it's not "over-growth", it's excellent growth, but the few plants you've got aren't enough to use all the nutrients you have.
The solution is simple. Buy a bunch of stem plants...Egeria, Ludwegia etc. and some floaters that will help suck up the nutrients. Stem plants are the cheapest plants you'll find in the LFS and the best at using excess nutrients. Buy a bunch of them. Later, after the tank matures and settles down you can replace them with other plants if you'd like, but for now they will help balance the light.
The water changes Tom talks about are excellent suggestions, but will only make a difference in the short term. More plants will keep the algae from coming back.
I hope this helps.

Len

[resk]

ive way more than 2 plants, here is current pictures:
http://aaron.neverwill.net/jpg/img_1356.jpg
http://aaron.neverwill.net/jpg/img_1353.jpg
http://aaron.neverwill.net/jpg/img_1354.jpg
http://aaron.neverwill.net/jpg/img_1355.jpg
http://aaron.neverwill.net/jpg/img_1357.jpg
http://aaron.neverwill.net/jpg/img_1358.jpg
http://aaron.neverwill.net/jpg/img_1359.jpg

i have more than glass algae

i am about to do my water change and probably another 30% mid day tomorrow

i will get the NO3 test kit and start fresh

[resk]

ive dosed and am going to clean again tomorrow

http://aaron.neverwill.net/jpg/img_1362.jpg
http://aaron.neverwill.net/jpg/img_1363.jpg
http://aaron.neverwill.net/jpg/img_1364.jpg
http://aaron.neverwill.net/jpg/img_1365.jpg
http://aaron.neverwill.net/jpg/img_1366.jpg
http://aaron.neverwill.net/jpg/img_1367.jpg

[joe schmoe]

Originally posted by plantbrain
I add the dechlorinator after I've drained the tank and start to refill.

Temp is the only thing to worry about when adding new water.

Regards,
Tom Barr
For the life of me, I couldn't figure out how people changed so much water in so little time. I've been dechlorinating in buckets for YEARS. NO MORE!!!!

50% water change on my 120g tank = ~55g. That's 11 5g buckets I had to lift 4 feet to dump in the tank.

NOW, this weekly water change business sounds more reasonable.

[Robert H]

Just to totally confuse you... here is an example of the totaly opposite approach to Toms big water changes:

http://www.aquabotanic.com/walstad/walstad50.jpg

Diana Walstad wrote the book Ecology of the Planted Aquarium. In this tank she does about a 10% water change once every month or two. It has no filtration other that a pump, no fertilization other than what the fish provide and whats in the substrate. You will not find a spec of algae in the tank, and it has been set up since 1993.

[resk]

that tank looks beautiful

since my tank is 38g high, and i wanted to add fast growing, high light plants,

a co2 injected / fertilized setup was the right way to achieve this

the 50% are as quick as can be with a sink attached python type system

the hardest part about it is matching your tank water temp, i stand with a thermometer and adjust my sink flow.

barely tapping the knob on my sink could mean a 2 degree temp change, so it takes awhile to get it right

[djlen]

Yes resk, you do have a bit of an algae problem.
Sorry I misinterpreted your PM, and glad to see you do have a tank full of plants.
You have a bunch of scrubbing and cleaning to do, but with the addition of CO2 and proper fertilizing after the cleanup the tank will get better.
What you are experiencing is not uncommon in a newly set up aquarium. You will note that the tank in the picture by Diana Walstad was set up in 1993. That makes it fully mature and as such able, almost, to take care of itself. She is also world renown for her knowledge of most aspects of fish/plant keeping.
We mere mortals are not so knowledgeable.
There is no question among people, that frequent water changes make a huge, positive difference in the environment of a planted or non-planted tank.
So let the scrubbing begin.....keep testing your water's pH(for CO2 content) and checking your P and N levels for optimum content and you will see a difference. It's like anything else....big effort = big rewards.
One other thing. The plants that are growing to the surface are doing you a favor by helping to shade the tank at this time. Later you might want to thin or remove if desired, but I'd let them shade it for now.

Len