View Full Version : What do i need to do??
Ok with the recent deaths of my bala sharks leaving me one and the death of my angel leaving me 1 i am thinking of getting discus. Do i need to get rid of the angel that is left?? I will prob get 3 of the discus. My params are Ammonia 0 Nitrites 0.1 Nitrates 3-4mg/l.
cdawson
01-12-2004, 2:44 AM
ACK! No wonder your fish are dying your tank is not cycled!
Any level of nitrites will kill any fish especially the extremely sensitive discus.
Unless you're extremely experienced with fish and rich to boot. I wouldn't recommend discus.
Before you add any more fish you need to make sure that tank is completely cycled. Meaning you should be reading nitrates, 0 nitrites, and 0 ammonia.
BTW how big is your tank?
Just for reference any level of ammonia over 1.0ppm is toxic to fish, ANY level of nitrite is lethal and 30ppm of nitrates and over is toxic to fish...It also causes ALOT of algae.
My tank was cycled for 3 weeks before i got any fish and that was way back before christmas....my tank has only had fish deaths in the past two days. How are discus that hard to keep??. My tank is 4 by 2 by 2 foot.
And unless your an Aussie you won't understand the readings. A bad nitrate reading is not 5mg/L it is in the good percent. If you have 50mg/L or more you are in a little bit of trouble. Plz don't say my readings are bad if you don't know the Australian measuremant charts. I know my nitrates could be 0 but it doesn't mean that they are effecting the fish. If it was a bad reading i would not have said it was good and I have read the instructions and reading charts 3 times and it is good.
Rhys, no established tank should ever, under any circumstances, show a positive nitrite reading as you reported in your original post: "Nitrites 0.1" - that is a sign of an immature, uncycled tank.
BTW, Australia is separate continent, not in a different universe with different physical and chemical laws. If locally produced tests kit use scale different from the rest of the world, why did you not include the units in which they are measured? Commonly this is either mg/l or ppm, which for our purposes are the same.
cdawson was fully correct on the toxicity of ammonia and nitrite.
Good Luck to you. With your defensive and wiseacre attitude I think that you will need it. If you did not want suggestions and advice, why did you bother to post?
BTW, there are multiple Aussies on this and other US forums, and we never seem tohave difficulty communicating.
cdawson
01-12-2004, 10:08 AM
Originally posted by Rhys
And unless your an Aussie you won't understand the readings. A bad nitrate reading is not 5mg/L it is in the good percent. If you have 50mg/L or more you are in a little bit of trouble. Plz don't say my readings are bad if you don't know the Australian measuremant charts. I know my nitrates could be 0 but it doesn't mean that they are effecting the fish. If it was a bad reading i would not have said it was good and I have read the instructions and reading charts 3 times and it is good.
dude, it's the exact same thing as ppm. If you have 50mg/l then you DEFINATELY wouldn't keep discus alive for long. I'm also not suprised that your tank isn't properly cycled, because you should realize you don't really know what you're talking about. We live in different continents, NOT different planets. I live in canada, which by association uses the same measurement system you use.
BTW I made those comments to help you, curb the asinine attitude and take the advice from the advanced aquarists, don't flame them.
adblair
01-12-2004, 10:21 AM
My tank was cycled for 3 weeks before i got any fish and that was way back before christmas
Uh.... unless you added something to the water to cycle the tank, like ammonia, then your tank didn't START cycling until you added the fish. The cycling process is for allowing good bacteria to grow. Good bacteria eats ammonia (fish waste). No fish, no food, no bacteria, no cycle. Sorry.
I think angel fish are sensitive to water conditions, but I am no expert on them. If you have 1 angel left, then right now I suggest you either take him back to the fish store, or do nothing hope that he will make it. But until you are positive that your tank is safe, you shouldn't ADD more fish they only produce more ammonia, and without enough bacteria, will make your water conditions worse. After you have cycled completely, then add ONLY a couple of fish at a time until you have what you want.
adblair
01-12-2004, 10:35 AM
BTW Rhys, we tried to tell you to read up on cycling back when you set up your tank. Maybe you missed that in the thread. I also calculated your tank size for you. Here's the link
http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=19647
People here are friendly overall, but they are a free volunteer information source. You don't have to agree with everyone here, but even the information you don't like is free . It is a gift. Just like any other gift you don't like, say thanks, and stick it in the back of your closet. Maybe you will find a use for it eventually.
i *vaguely* agree with what's already been posted. i could split a few hairs, but i don't think this is the time or the place. :rolleyes:
this is just nuts. you just had 3 fish die, and now you want to go out and get a fish that really requires basically pristine water conditions to replace them. if you really want to throw away money like that, i have a garbage can here you can throw it into. ;)
please, if for no better motivation other than not emptying your savings account. "get the basics under control", and get your tank cycled. in the short term or long term it will save you alot of money and aggravation. there's plenty of time to get "fancy" fish later.
Must4ng s4lly
01-12-2004, 11:04 AM
All of the above posts are good, i e no cycle with no fish!
I think there is also confusion between nitrites and nitrates.
Here's a link with add'l links to fill out all info needed on water parameters etc: http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/docs/water/watbas.shtml
Below is a quote from an article found at: (Tom's Place) http://www.aaquaria.com/aquasource/cyclingbasics.shtml
When you first set your tank up, it has none (or next to none) of the "good" bacteria, which are referred to as "nitrifying bacteria". There are several different "breeds" of these bacteria, and they do different jobs. When you put your first few fish in the tank, the fish create ammonia by releasing urine and feces into the water. Urine and decomposing feces create ammonia, which is very toxic to fish. As your ammonia level builds up in the tank, a bacterium that feeds on the ammonia becomes present in the tank as well. It used to be believed that this particular bacteria was what are known as nitrosomonas, but more recent studies have shown that these are not, in fact, the exact bacteria responsible for converting ammonia in a freshwater aquarium situation. At any rate, these first bacteria "feed" on the ammonia, and convert it to a chemical called nitrite. Nitrite is also quite toxic to fish. However, as the ammonia level drops (as more and more of the ammonia is converted to nitrite) and the nitrite level rises, another type of bacteria begins to grow in the tank. This second type of bacteria used to be believed to be a sort called nitrobacter but, again, recent research has shown that it is a different type of bacteria. The bacteria do however, as the nitrite level rises, convert nitrites to nitrates, which are much less harmful to the fish. Ideally, a fully cycled "perfect" tank would have 0 ammonia, 0 nitrites and less than 20 ppm of nitrates. In a nominally stocked tank, the cycle, from set-up to "perfect" can take as long as 2 to 3 months.
LMOUTHBASS
01-12-2004, 1:37 PM
correct me if i'm wrong - but aren't nitrates really nothing to worry about - in fact i thought most ppl don't test for them cause just by doing water changes you'll keep it under control - i have a nuisance situation myself - i went from a fully cycled 20g to a 55g -moved everything over to the new tank was suppose to be instantly cycled from what info i gathered - however for the past month i have not had any media in my filters as i had to treat for ick - i'm now reading 0 ammonia and .25 nitrite - is this possibly because of medicating and that i lost some good bacteria from running essentially empty filters? i know ammonia is toxic but have heard nitrite is not nearly as bad although it is still toxic none the less - is my new tank not fully cycled then? i just don't get it cause i moved the filters n everyhting from my cycled tank - also i am not overstocked, but i have been a little to generous on the feedings (my weakness) - maybe this is it ? i will cut back on feeding and start a 25 -30% water change every week for a while - whatcha think?
Ok sorry cdawson. I have been crabby over the past few days because i haven't been able to figure out my fish deaths. I just thought I had done everything right in the first place with cycling as my lfs told me to do a fishless cycle but never told me to add ammonia even though he knew i was still starting out. How quickly can i drop my nitrites?? and how??
Ok i think we have all been under some type of dillusion here but correct me if i'm wrong. I just went and read my chart for nitrates and the scaling chart doesn't have a 0 reading on it. The lowest mine goes to is 0.1 also my scaling chart says the is good, unobjectionable. Now I have trouble believing my tank is in some type of trouble when i went out and bought the most accurate ones in australia to date. Can someone plz get back to me on this.
PumaWard
01-12-2004, 2:48 PM
Rhys,
You originally posted that you have .1ppm nitrItes (NO2) NO2 is toxic to fish.
You also posted you have 3 ppm of nitrAtes (NO3 )which is only toxic to fish in high levels.
As far as discus, I would avoid them until you have quite a bit of experience with other less difficult fish. If you are losing angels, discus will die.
I have bought and lost 15 discus (not all at the same time, mind you, and all I take responsibility for all) only one of them made it to the 6 month mark (overdosed on quickcure however). You have to understand these fish well before you get involved, and your tank should be well matured, cycled for at least 6 months before you try them. Also, they aren't as picky about tank mates, but they have to be the first in the tank.
I would research heavily before you make your first purchase.
My angel appeared to be mutalated. Whereas the bala sharks weren't. I have no idea anymore:shake:
adblair
01-12-2004, 3:06 PM
correct me if i'm wrong - but aren't nitrates really nothing to worry about - in fact i thought most ppl don't test for them cause just by doing water changes you'll keep it under control
I don't think you are wrong.... but I have had issues with nitrAtes recently. My biggest issue is that my tap water has a lot of nitrAtes already, so water changes don't help a lot. It just depends on a lot of factors, and from what a lot of people have told me it's good to monitor the nitrAtes because it gives you a good general idea of the other dirties in the tank. So nitrAtes may or may not be something to worry about, depending on your tanks other factors I guess.
adblair
01-12-2004, 3:10 PM
How quickly can i drop my nitrites?? and how??
Well, cycling is cycling and it has to happen. I don't know of anything to do other than to follow the safe cycling tips located all over these boards. Just do a search for how to cycle. You might also try Bio Spyra, but I am really not familiar with it, I've never used it, so I can't say how well it works.
ok guys thanks for the tips and sorry for getting cranky earlier on.
For common community fish, nitrate is well tolerated, but somewhere above ~40ppm it will have detectable depression effects on the fish's immune system and ability to breed. For some fish this this starts as low as or below 25ppm, others can live for years (but are unlikely to breed) at and above 100ppm. So if you want your fish healthy (and both disease resistance and fertility are indicators of this) manitain your nitrate below 40ppm no matter what you keep, and the lower the better. For more delicate fish, below 20ppm max, below 10ppm if possible is desirable.
Nitrate is indeed "something to worry about" if you are attempting to maintain healthy, lively, and colorful fish. But the damage is at MUCH higher concentration and over the long term, versus the immediate toxicities at much lower concentrations of ammonia or nitrite.