Mystery Disease

[blue2fyre]

I have no idea what is wrong with these guys. I have already lost 2 fish to this disease and this guy looks to be on his way out as well. They have this odd discoloration on their skin. One that died had it around his gill, the other that died had it around his mouth. It's like their bodies are just rotting away. I have 7 left, 5 of those 7 look good so far. All are still eating. I just got these fish a week ago. I thought it might be some ammonia burn from the shipping so I've been keeping the water very clean. But they seem to keep getting worse.
There is a picture attached. I separated this guy since he looked pretty bad this morning when the lights came on.
Parameters:
Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: About 10, I did a water change yesterday
Ph: 8.2
Temp: 78 degrees

[blue2fyre]

Well the one in the picture is dead now. I never treated since I didn't know what I was treating for. I can't tell if the others have the same spots. Some look like they have very small patches. PLEASE someone give me some guidance before I loose anymore.

[snoopy65]

I wish I could help. I have never seen anything like it. Hopefully someone will have some answers or at least point you in the right direction. I am sorry for your losses.

[blue2fyre]

Thanks

I've been super frustrated because they go downhill so quickly. I have a feeling it's something bacteria related. It's like fin rot but is affecting the body. I haven't seen anything like it at all and searches on the Internet haven't turned up anything.

[mel_20_20]

Are the reddened areas always in area you show in the photo? Or are they in various places on the fish's body?

[mel_20_20]

Do the scales in the inflammed area seem to be standing away from the body a little bit, sort of like dropsy, but not necessarily standing out that much?

[blue2fyre]

On the two other fish I lost, one had the inflamed area near it's gills and the other had the patch around it's mouth. The one that had the discoloration around his mouth actually had a hole all the way through his lip as well.
I don't think the scales are sitting up. These guys are only 2 inches long so I can't tell for sure.

[Cerianthus]

Pretty Common actually. Internal hemmorhaging I would suspect. Try Kanamycin or Kana/Nitrofurazone combo (Spectrogram by Aqiatronics but Aquatronics is not in circulation anymore).

Since you only had for week, I am assuming due to shipping related culpit.

I woud also avoid any UNECESSARY WATER CHANGES as long as test result are w/in range.

As far as med in Q/T or main tank, will leave it up to you.
My choice at this pont would be treat the main.

Hope all goes well!

BTW, sustaining specific salt level may reduce chance of outbreak down the road. Not NaCl but other types of salt synthetically manufactured for rift valley cichlid or mbunas.

[mel_20_20]

Cerianthus' take on this sounds logical. Did you notice any strange swimming patterns; spiraling, spinning, etc., in any of the infected fish?

[blue2fyre]

No weird swimming or anything They looked a little weak but swam around and ate up until right before their death. They they would hide and lay on the bottom then die soon after.

[Cerianthus]

Probably due to internal inflammations most of us dont catch until too late, that is by the time fish shows external symptoms.
This could also been started external infection and progressed internally but my guess would be systemic (internal) problems.

I have brought back numerous fish when caught on early stages, by observing not just their swimming behaviors/eating habits but also their social behaviors.
Need to observe fish in many categories to suspect possible complications.

Key is how fast you can catch the problem thus requires close monitoring.

If memory serves, Kana can be absorbed thru skin from water. For more info, google novalek.com and click on Aquavet for more info.

Hope this helped.

[blue2fyre]

Yeah these were special ordered for me by my lfs. They were bagged 3 to a bag and had some frayed fins from picking on one another. I picked them up on the day they arrived and they all looked healthy and active. It wasn't until this week got here that this disaster started.
Hopefully for the ones left I can treat accordingly and save the ones I still have.

[blue2fyre]

Well it's spreading and now I think it's Columnaris. My acei has a gray sore on his nose now. I'm guessing since the other fish are albino I didn't see the sores until it reached the tissue below and they bled out.

[THE V]

It could also be Costia, TB, or many other bacterial or parasitic. It's really difficult to tell sometimes without using a microscope. The only thing we can rule out is fungus.

Here's my favorite link for diagnosing disease. Look through the advanced section. Their diagnostic tree's are excellent.

http://www.fishyfarmacy.com/diseases.html

If it were my tank I would treat with malachite green (parasites) and gram negative antibiotics (Marycin II, tetracycline, kanamycin, etc..)

Best of luck to you on getting this one resolved.

[blue2fyre]

I treated with Marycin-TC this morning. Another snow white is on his way out. His whole side is rotting away. The sore on my acei's nose is larger as well.

[mel_20_20]

I'm so sorry for your losses. How many are obviously ill, and how many that aren't visibly affected yet?

[blue2fyre]

I had to put one down, his organs were coming out of his body :(

2 of the snow whites have symptoms. 3 of my acei and 2 white top haras now have symtpoms as well.

I have 1 demasoni, 1 acei, 4 syno 1 red tail shark, and I'm not sure how many white tops I have. They are not showing signs yet.

[Cerianthus]

ALthough anything is possible, Most likely, not a TB nor Costia (dont recall internal hemorhaging from Costia).

What is Maracyn-TC?
I personally dont think EM nor TC would have any effects if this is what I think it is.

[RDTigger]

OMG.... I am so sorry...

Do you have a QT of some kind? Or will you try dosing your whole tank?

[blue2fyre]

For now I'm assuming it's contagious and that since all fish have been exposed they shall all be treated. I'm going to turn down the temp to hopefully slow down the progress.

I'm picking up a 20 long this weekend so maybe I can separate the really bad ones and treat as needed. I have an extra 5.5 but the acei are way too big, not to mention all the snow whites. I don't think I could keep the water clean enough.

This has been just heart breaking seeing them rot like this.

[blue2fyre]

I think the spreading is slowing down.

This morning my male acei's face looks so bad. He looked like it was painful to eat but he still did which is a good sign. I have 2 more haras showing signs as well.

Also now I am working on keeping it from spreading to other tanks. I'm only using one net with this tank, all the decor I took out is set aside not to be used in another tank, and I'm constantly washing my hands after working with this tank.

I don't know if it will hurt my inverts in the 5 gallon, but I have a 5.5 set up for some new arrivals this weekend(white calvus) and I DON"T want them getting it!.

[RDTigger]

since we don't know exactly what this might be...

Keep track of what you have used.. I keep thinking of using a general med like Clout to ease the suffering and maybe nip this wild disease in the bud. Hard to diagnose such a nasty fish kill.

[blue2fyre]

I'm going to try and sterilize the 5.5 gallon just to be sure. And for now I'm keeping tabs on everything that goes in or out of the 55 gallon.

I'm almost certain this is bacterial I just don't know exactly what it is. It's some kind of odd flesh eating bacteria.

[blue2fyre]

Here are some more pictures. Maybe since the acei is darker than it will be easier to see what's going on.

This is Goat, my dominant male Acei. You can see the rotting on both sides of his face.

[snoopy65]

My heart goes out to you! It really does look bacterial. Whether gram positive or negative, who knows. I would be treating for both as well as your other tank just in case.

[blue2fyre]

Good idea. I've been treating gram negative. I will pick up some gram positive meds as well.

[RDTigger]

holy crap... poor fish. that is amazingly invasive for an infection...

[blue2fyre]

I know!

Goat had this very small chunk out of his nose from the crazy OB zebra a few weeks ago. It was mostly healed but the bacteria got into it and wrecked havoc. My haras mostly have it around their mouths. Again they have been sparring for rank so I guess it's gotten down in the healing wounds. Luckily my dominant male hara has not been involved in the battles so he is unharmed, so far.

[RDTigger]

is there anyway to contact the seller of the fish you think this came from? Not to complain, so much as try and find a resolution.

They might know what to do to contain and control the bacteria...

[blue2fyre]

The snow whites I just got?

Not that I know of. The lfs special ordered them for me.

I am getting ready to head out and look into picking up more meds. I'll stop by the lfs and see what they have to say about it. They most likely have encountered more diseases than I have and maybe they will have some insight.

[blue2fyre]

Well the lfs said I'm doing everything they would have done. They also recommended I up the dose of the antibiotics. I was treating for 40 gallons since I was worried about my catfish.

The lights went out tonight and while some look worse, there were no deaths today!

[THE V]

My heart goes out to you! It really does look bacterial. Whether gram positive or negative, who knows. I would be treating for both as well as your other tank just in case.

This is a common misconception. Gram positive antibiotics generally do not work on Gram negative bacteria. However Gram negative antibiotics generally work on gram positive bacteria as well as Gram negative.

The has to do with the structure of the bacterial cell wall that the Gram Stain test is used to determine. The gram positive bacteria generally have a cell wall that is easier for the antibiotic to breach.

If you do not think the marycin is working you can pick up another Gram-negative antibiotic like tetracycline or erythromycin.

[excuzzzeme]

Kanamycin (http://www.fishyfarmacy.com/products2.html#Kanamycin_Sulfate)is your best bet as Cerianthus stated. You may need to treat the tank for about 30 days.

Sorry for your loss and hope you can save the rest.

[blue2fyre]

I think I've had a small success. One of the acei looks better this morning and is swimming around! The same cannot be said for my poor Goat :( I think one way or another I'm making progress. I really don't want to change medicines until I'm done treating with the one I have, which will be 2 more days.

[myswtsins]

This is heartbreaking! I'm so sorry for everything you are going through & hope that you are making head way now.

It is always suggested to wait a couple weeks after fish come into a LFS to make sure any weak ones died off and that there is no disease present, there's a lot of stress getting to the store. Unfortunately you have seen first hand what happens but hopefully this will help others steer clear of this situation.

QT is also essential, I HATE it but I have recently learned the hard way too. I use a QT tank now even from reliable sources! I will admit that when no signs of disease are present though I don't keep them in there for the full 4+ weeks.

I am not trying to be a jerk, just pointing out some stuff for others to learn from. Stay strong, I know I cried like a little baby when I had to put down one of my fish. :cry:

[RDTigger]

I think all of us that didn't heed the QT philosophy have a story that made us respect the idea. Mine was a simple ick outbreak, simply showed me what 'could' happen and it's unusual for me to put anything directly into my main tank.

So happy to hear positives this morning blue.. :-) If they are taking food some good frozen brine or other protein/mineral rish food is in order!

[blue2fyre]

Well my lfs could not guarantee they would still be there if I had waited. They were only willing to hold them for a couple days. This disease didn't show up until a week later.

Also I have had no luck keeping mbuna in QT. Keeping that many aggressive fish in a small tank has always led to deaths. I still stand by not QTing them. It's a risk I was fully aware of. It just sucks this is how it turned out.

[blue2fyre]

SUCCESS!

Kind of.

The fish that had minor wounds have not gotten any worse. One of the snow whites looks completely better. There is an acei and 2 snow whites that might be too far gone. I have a female hara with a very messed up face but she is still pretty active.

[blue2fyre]

Just one more update on this horrid disease.

Today I noticed healing in the fish that had minor sores. The hara with the messed up face is the qorst but she's healing too. All are eating. If this is truly over then my loses have been 8 snow whites and 2 acei. That's close to half the stocking in my tank.

Today was the 5th day of treatment. Tomorrow I'm doing a large water change and repeating a 5 day treatment again. No new fish are going in this tank for a month. I'm really worried the understocking will cause aggression problems but I will have to cross that bridge when I get there.

[mel_20_20]

I'm so sorry for your losses, but it's good news to hear that the survivors seem to be healing and getting better. Keep up the good work.

[RDTigger]

Great to hear...

I would tempted to dose with salt or stress coat for added health, also soak as much food in vitamins such as nourish. Time to get them back to a good strong immune system..

[blue2fyre]

Thanks

They are eating NLS which is suppose to help with their immune system. So that's a step in the right direction.

When i went in to the lfs yesterday to pick up more meds, they said they were dealing with the same disease :/. There were 2 snow whites I didn't buy since there was a dead one in the bag. My guess is it spread the disease to the stock tanks. I told them everything I had done to stop it. Hopefully it works out for them.