What is this?

[aj2494]

This came in on a pleco. It looks like some white powder was dropped across them all. But only some of the fish have it. Yesterday morning, I left for school, and the tank was fine. When I came home 7 hours later, most of the fish were covered in this, some worse than others. I have never seen this before, but it looks a lot like ich. The one thing that's confusing me is I have only seen one or two fish flash, and maybe there is a slight reduction in activity, but not much. Can you guys help me figure out what this is? It treated with Kordon Rid-Ich+ (treats pretty much everything, and this is why the water looks blue), and some salt too just in case it is ich. I also turned my heater up one notch.

These are of the same fish just because it was easier to see on her.116687
This just shows the scale of it on her.
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[KarlTh]

Ich. White spot disease.

[aj2494]

I've never seen ich anything like this before. It spread insanely fast, suddenly, and very heavily. It also has a texture on the fish, like it sticks out.

[iLunar]

+1 Definitely Ich Try Treating the Whole Tank with anti-ich meds and raise the temp. a little so it will Fasten the Life Span/Cycle of the Ich Parasites.

[aj2494]

Already did both of those plus salt.

[nc0gnet0]

Not sure what you are treating with but you should nevermix formalin and salt......

[KarlTh]

Not sure what you are treating with but you should nevermix formalin and salt......

Why?

[KarlTh]

I've never seen ich anything like this before. It spread insanely fast, suddenly, and very heavily. It also has a texture on the fish, like it sticks out.

It normally does. Looks like classic ick to me.

[SubRosa]

Not sure what you are treating with but you should nevermix formalin and salt......
I've used formalin to cure crypto (marine ich) in SW tanks countless times. I'm curious as to the reason as well.

[aj2494]

Rid-Ich+ is a combination of formalin and malachite green. What I put in the tank is 100% pure salt, with no additives at all (it's called Kosher Salt). According to Kordon, they use salt with the malachite green in the Rid-Ich. Not only that, but I have used this treatment along with salt before, with no issues. Also, if what you are saying is true, formalin could never be used in saltwater, which I know it can be, as SubRosa said.

[Cerianthus]

Cichlids are tough cookies. So dont rush to other actions.

Although looks like an Ich , possibly combination of two different types of parasite.
Perhaps Oodinium.

With an assumption that water parameters were and are within range, this deterioration of skin may be contributed by the med itself. Although Rid-Ich, Quick cure did work on Ich infestation, i believe I had better results by using CLOUT made by Aquarium Products. Always had extra 1000 tabs avail in my facility.
I would and have used Formalite for other types of external parasitic infestation in combination with antibiotics on tetra/livebearer related bacterial diseases/external parasitic infestation. I always yielded better results (pretty close to 100% when cuaght and treated at ealy stage of infestation) with CLOUT on f/w Ich/Oodinium, even on clown loaches (lower dosage though) but same results were not obtained on salt water external infestations.
I am not suggesting to switch the med since i dont know if first med was given enough time to eradicate the problem but to keep in mind that other alternatives are avail. Double check your dosage on Rid Ich and make sure you have not overdosed
I strongly urge everyone to do little research online on Mala Green before choosing any med containing MG, which may affect the longevitiy of fish in our care. Tocixity effects of MG dependis on water condition.

In my over two decades of being in this industry, I relied very heavily on CLOUT on common Ich/Oodinium infestation, more effective than all the meds which were avail on the market until I got out few years ago.

btw, one should treat or deactivate medicated water before dumping into our sewer.
Depending on med, different ways of removing. Google on line for facts or contact mfr for futher details.

Hope this beauty recovers fully soon.

Question: Any new additions or fish exposed to eratic/extreme conditions recently (extremely sudden drop in temp due to malfunctioning heater, etc)???????

[aj2494]

Question: Any new additions or fish exposed to eratic/extreme conditions recently (extremely sudden drop in temp due to malfunctioning heater, etc)???????

Only thing was the pleco who brought it in and some otos. I am absolutely sure that I am not od'ing, and I'm doing daily 20% wc's.

[blue2fyre]

Have you turned up the heat at all?

When I used the Kordon Ich medicine my fish were miserable. I switched to heat and salt and it cleared the ich right up. But I know most people have success with that product.

[Cerianthus]

Only thing was the pleco who brought it in and some otos. I am absolutely sure that I am not od'ing, and I'm doing daily 20% wc's.

Are you redosing after each pwc per volume of water changed?
If you are not compensating for decrease in concentration of med due to each pwc, tank is not maintaining necessary concentration of med.
This is tricky part as I ve seen many OD or under dose when determining the amt of med being replaced after water changes.

How long did you have the new fish before this outbreaks were noticed?

[aj2494]

This product is meant to be fully re-dosed every 24 hours, or 12 for really bad cases, like mine. I am adding the product at 6 am, 6pm, etc, with 20% wc's right before the 6 pm dosing. I also discovered that garlic helps boost the immune system, and possibly confuse the pathogens into not recognizing the host. So I crushed a clove of garlic and mixed food with it, and every fish took a bite or two (that I know of).

I got the fish on Saturday, and noticed the issue Wednesday, but the visible signs spread in a period of 7 hours. He was dead this morning. That's not a good sign, but atleast the carrier is gone. I can tell you one thing, I will NEVER buy fish from petsmart again, and they will be hearing from me.

[blue2fyre]

Doesn't Petsmart have a 14 day guarantee? You could get a refund since your fish died.

Also keep treating. Event though he died (so sorry for your loss) it's still in your tank and I would continue to treat for at least a week.

[aj2494]

Yeah, but every fish in the tank has it, which is another 15 fish. Hopefully it won't take too long, but I feel it will take longer than a week.

[blue2fyre]

I didn't realize all the other fish still had it. Then yeah you'll be treating for longer than a week. Once the ich is no longer visible THEN you want to continue treatment for a week to get rid of it once and for all.

[aj2494]

The product tells to continue 3 days after symptoms disappear. Is that ok? Or is it better to go longer?

Here are some better pictures. The cichlid is the male, and then there are the tiger barbs. The cichlids are the worst in the tank by far, except they don't have a lot of problems with their eyes like the barbs do.
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116909

[aj2494]

Please help me. One of the barbs is totally blind now, and this is only getting worse.

[snoopy65]

Ok, what temp is your tank at? I would slowly raise it to about 80-82 F. This will speed up the life cycle of the ich. We can only kill ich when it is in the water. The spots you see on your fish are not the ich you are killing. The spots on your fish fall off and then the new ich look for a new host. The life cycle of ich is about 2 weeks, so you need to treat your fish for 2 weeks after you see the last spot on any fish. I have to tell you, the odds are it will look worse before it gets better. I do hope you are at the "look worse" stage. Hang in there.

[aj2494]

I know how the cycle works, and this started 4 days ago counting today. I am doing daily wc's, meds, and I heard that ich can't survive above 85F, so I'm bringing it up to that temp. It's at almost 82F right now.

[snoopy65]

If you have an extra airstone, I would add it to the tank. The higher the temp the less O2 the water can hold.

[aj2494]

My powerhead is delivering massize amounts of O2. I don't think that it would help, plus, I would have to go buy one.

[mel_20_20]

There are some strains of Ich that are heat resistant. I had Ich that took 18 days to drop off my fish, in 86 degree water, and I had .3% salinity, which is three level teaspoons per gallon.

Once they dropped off, I went another 10 days with the heat and the salt. I did big water changes every 24 hours because my biofilter had been destroyed by a power failure, and I vacuumed the substrate good each time to try to remove the cysts that had fallen to the bottom of the tank.

[aj2494]

I have been vacuuming every day too. I brought the temp up to 88.

[mel_20_20]

That should help. Hang in there... I'm sorry you're having to deal with this problem, what a royal pain.

I remember in one post of Pinkertd, one of our mods, she stated that the Ich protozoan can't attach to the fish at temps of 82 and above, so that's a really good thing.

Once the buggers hatch out of their cysts on the substrate, they won't have anywhere to run, nowhere to hide....and it's DIE DIE DE!!! :grinyes:

[aj2494]

I'm afraid I'm developing a secondary infection. Some areas on the male cichlid have a cottony thing on them. I'm thinking it's fungus, not columnaris. The good news is that it can't spread, and I am already using the best treatment for fungus.

[aj2494]

Just an update:

Male cichlid appears to have lost most of the ich, but has quite a bit of fungus.
Female has the ich still.
1 barb has ich, and 2 have clouded eyes and slight fungus on the fins.

I'm doing what I can, just hoping everybody's fine in the morning.

[mel_20_20]

The description "cottony", can be fungus, but it can also be Columnaris. Here's some photos for comparison:

The two pictures below are fungus. Notice the long hairy appearance of the fungus. Like a piece of vegetable left in the tank for several days, or like mold on bread.
117018

117021



The two pictures below are of Columnaris.
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Columnaris can have tufts of cottony looking lesions, but it mostly looks like filminess, or wet cotton. Closer to the body, not long hairy strands like fungus.

Can you tell which one of these looks more like what's going on with your fish?

[aj2494]

Neither of those look like this. It seems to have lessened overnight, too.

[aj2494]

I think the male is on his way out.

[beatsland]

I am dealing with the same exact issue wright now. Been treating with Maracide for a week with no improvement. The fish lost the white spots and 2 days later got eaven more on them. I have the temp at 86 and aded 2 tbs of aquarium salt per gallon. Nothing seems to work, already lost 6 fish. My water par are good and plenty of water changes. Going to get different meds tomorrow, coppersafe or clout depending of what my lfs has available. What a nightmare ! Keep you posted, Good Luck !

[aj2494]

Thanks, you too. I've had to euthanize 2 tiger barbs. I feel like my male cichlid is getting close, but he has been struggling for a very long time, so I have no clue if he is going to pull through or not. No matter what, I don't want to euthanize him because there might be a chance he will pull through.

[mel_20_20]

I"m so sorry for your losses, and that you're going through this ordeal. Keep us posted.

[aj2494]

I don't think he'll make it through the night. The female mimics him, but a full 24 hours later. If he doesn't make it, I'll have to euthanize her. He is one tough fish, I'll give him that.

[aj2494]

:tombstone:, big guy. I have never seen a stronger fish. He probably lasted 18 hours of laying on his side :shakehead:. He is the bottom fish in my avatar, but if you want to get a better picture, click here (http://images.google.com/images?q=australoheros%20oblongum&rls=com.microsoft:en-us:IE-SearchBox&oe=UTF-8&sourceid=ie7&rlz=1I7DKUS_en&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&hl=en&tab=wi). The first few pictures actually are his parents.

The female seems to be on her way too. If she keeps following suit, I can't see keeping her alive to struggle as humane at all.

[aj2494]

I euthanized everybody except the three cories, the only ones who don't look really bad. It's odd, because the cories are the only ones without symptoms.

[mel_20_20]

I am so very sorry for your tragic losses. You've worked so hard trying to save them, please take comfort in that.

[aj2494]

I did all I could. I'm just so mad. The ok part is that my mom offered to pay for new fish because she sees all the work I put in, and felt bad.

[blue2fyre]

I'm very sorry for your loss.

I just finished fighting off a horrid bacterial disease in my 55 gallon. I lost a lot of fish but I'm not adding anymore for a while. I want to make sure this stuff is gone.

I would wait at least 2 weeks before adding any new fish. The disease/parasite could still be in the water.

[aj2494]

I was just ich, and some of them developed fungus. I have the tank temperature at 88F, and I'm still treating, and there are no more sources for it to drop from, it won't be able to survive. I am still giving it a few days justs to be careful, but I am confident that it is gone, or cannot survive at all.

[blue2fyre]

But the ich that did drop off the fish you had could still be in the water and could attach to fish. If it was me I would rather wait and be sure. I'm glad you are waiting a few days. I would give it at least a week.

[aj2494]

I thought that once they dropped off, they became a cyst for 24 hours, then divided into 1024 new parasites, but need to attach to a fish within 24-48 hours? At the temperature my tank is, they can't even survive free swimming, let alone for a few days. Plus, I have the medication still going. I actually plan to add the fish in on Saturday, so just under a week.

[mel_20_20]

They do hatch out in the substrate, but they may not all hatch at the same time. It could be over a period of several days.

That's why vacuuming the substrate helps a good bit, by removing the cysts that lay on the bottom.

The minimum should be 4 days after the last speck drops off, and that's if you don't have the heat and salt resistant Ich protozoan, as I did have. My tank was going 87 to 88 degrees, with .3% salinity, which is 3 level teaspoons per gallon.

I personally would go 10 days past the last visible speck.

[beatsland]

Sorry about your loss, I lost several fish my self. Two days ago I did a massive water change 75% and started treatment with coppersafe and melafix. As of now the fish seem to be doing a lot beatter, my big Festivum is swiming around and looks a lot happier. He still has some white stuff on the tip of his fins butt overal looks better. I think they first got Ich and then Velvet since the white stuff looked less grainy the second time. Coppersafe treats for a full month so that should be enough time to kill the disease cycle. The tank is at 85 dgs, I keep you posted as the days go by...

[beatsland]

Coppersafe and Melafix have done it, my fish are back to normal. I will wait two more weeks before adding carbon to the filters to get rid of the meds. Coppersafe treats for month so it should get rid of any left overs.